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Post by Amethyst347 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:29 pm

So I'm having a bit of trouble deciding how to build one of my PCs, and thought I might ask my fellow Aeneans (many of whom I'll wager are far better at this than I am) for some input. Now, I'm not really interested in making the most uber min/maxed power build; I like to just think up characters that I think will be kinda interesting and fun to play, but I also want them to be able to actually kill things and not be too frustrating or underpowered (or else they won't be... you know... fun to play).

The idea is a Wizard/Pale Master/Cleric of Zolaras. I decided on a Bright Gnome, for the INT and WIS bonus, plus Wizard as a favored class = no further XP penalty PC build question Icon_cheers. Starting stats are 10 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 18 INT, 16 WIS and 12 CHA. I'd like to have access to level 9 spells for at least one of the classes, and maybe a couple of epic spells too. The ability to melee if necessary without totally getting her arse kicked would be nice as well. I realize that splitting her spell casting levels will mean she won't be the greatest spell caster, but I'm hoping I can figure out a way to distribute her class levels in a way that will make her playable enough to be worth it. I'm thinking I want at least level 5 cleric for the level/ability drain immunity, and epic Pale Master would add to the AC bonus and open up some of the Epic spells if I went to at least 15 (is this worth the investment?). Other than that, I'm not sure what I want to do.

Any suggestions or ideas, guys?
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:08 pm

To still be able to melee, as far as I know, you want mostly Cleric pre-epic. Clerics buff well, but then, so do Wizards.

I'm not a caster expert, but Dave put up a good article on building in the Build forum.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:26 pm

Moved topic to the character build section.

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Post by Svair on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:13 pm

Neat! I too am trying to make this combination work.

Here's what I've learned after the first 60 hours. You've likely already considered most of the below, so my apologies to where I'm being redundant.

1. Be Female (no Male Clerics of Zolaras beyond 1st level).
2. Bright Gnome with its Ability bonuses is likely to excel more than my choice (Vamp as character concept). Yours a good decision.
3. Fifth level Clerics of Zolaras get immunity to Death Magic and Level/Ability drains. Totally worth it at lower levels.
4. To really use the better Cleric spell buffs, you'll need to take 9-11 levels in Cleric (Divine Power and Battletide).
5. I tried to be an Int based Palemaster (and still wanna be), but learned that without the additional spellcasting levels used to calculate spell duration/DCs, you might be better served in focusing on buffs. [Can we haz +1/2 Palemaster level affect spells please?]
6. Having said that, I found Extend/Maximize spell to be worth taking to help mitigate the loss of overall Arcane spellcasting levels. Buffs last longer or are stronger, enemies take more damage from spells...
7. Epic Spells are available as an Epic Cleric, but Epic Mage Armor is a good choice for Palemasters 15th level or higher.

And if you are able to fit in Divine Might/Shield feats, please let me know how you did it...:-)


Last edited by Svair on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I can't count...)
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:34 pm

Caster levels affect durations/damage dice, but don't affect DCs at all. DC's are 10+spell level + caster stat + focus feats. It's only on durations, damage dice, and spell resistances that epic PMs get the royal shafting (ie, everything BUT the DC lol)

As for the class combo idea itself... It'll be a very tough build to do. You'd be split between three classes that would require decent attention to really shine. Without really working out anything, I'd have to say 5 levels of cleric for two immunities just as easily gotten from items would be a bad idea. It has great RP flavor, but doesn't give anything for the investment.

A cleric 21/wiz3/pm 16 split can give you access to epic mage armor, epic warding (via the PM levels), say, hellball or greater ruin (via the epic cleric level), and would have good melee presence with good AC, and Divine Power bolstering your AB. You'd have some wiz spells (I *think a 3 wiz/16 PM will give you a cast or two of level 8 spells).... the best spells though would be save-or-die DC types, nothing that requries caster levels for damage dice or durations.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:58 pm

Is Divine Power really any good? I thought the duration was only 1 turn...
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:16 pm

That's divine favor (which is nice itself, but nothing spectacular).

Divine power is 1 round/level, and gives you the same BAB as a fighter of the same character (not just class level) as you.

Further confusion ensues... Divine might adds divine damage to your attacks equal to your cha modifier, and divine shield adds your cha modifier to your AC.

Divine headaches can occure when trying to keep all them straight.
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Post by Svair on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:45 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:

Divine headaches can occure when trying to keep all them straight.

Heh...I am still confused about the names (I mix them up), and still can't calculate the bonuses correctly...
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Post by daveyeisley on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:28 pm

I agree with manny that cleric 5 probly isnt worth it. Cleric 11 or 13 might be decent, however due to the useful spells and caster level.

Pale master is a 10 level investment to get the crit immunity (less useful after ascension).

So right here at this point, you would be talking about 3 wiz levels to qualify for PM, 10 PM levels, and then 11 cleric levels.... so 24 out of your 40 levels would be spoken for. add the remaining 16 to wizard, and you get your 9th level spells.... however you are decidedly lacking in the epic spell department.

alternately, you dump some wizard and shift it to PM (PMs get epic spells at 15th), and you sacrifice some caster level in order to get those epic spells. I would say shift maybe 8 levels to PM, so overall you are still wizard 11, PM 18, cleric 11. *important note: all PM levels after 14th should be taken on "feat" levels, perferable late in your career so your spellcraft will be high enough to qualify for epic spell feats.

With the above tweak, you should be able to get all the things you want, but both your arcane and divine caster levels will only be 11. Extend spell is indeed a good feat to assist with making spells with a duration of 1/rd per level useful in this scenario.

You can get divine might/shield so long as you have the 13 str needed for power attack to qualify and you get them both on levels that are both "feat" levels and cleric levels. I would recommend taking all cleric levels pre-epic for the best AB, you should end up with a 22 AB all told.... and 3 attacks per round which is decent (with divine power and haste you will get more).

You will have 9th level arcane spells (which as things stand are mostly superior to 9th level divine spells though this may eventually be balanced), you can get 4 epic spells, you can get divine might and shield feats, your melee wont totally suck (not being able to wear armor or a shield might be slightly tricky until you get epic mage armor hehe, unless you go for ones that remove all arcane failure % like a shield of force and chitin armor). You will still also have that nice death magic/ level drain immunity, too Smile

You may want to prioritize str and cha a little higher if you are seeking the divine might/shield feats. Since this build would feature only level 6 divine sp0ells at best you only need an ending wisdom of 16, and if you consider your +4 from bright gnome and a +2 from a tome, you really only need a base 10 to start. If you want to squeeze a little more for str and cha, you can pull a couple points each out of con and dex, too.

EDIT: also, if you are in a situation where you *need* to melee better and can afford to not be able to cast spells.... tenser's transformation would be a superior option to divine power.

Hope that helps.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:54 pm

Elixir's of power (tensors potions) are caster level 11, so with 11 wiz in the build, stock up on potions, get the same amount of boost as casting it and free up those slots for other spells.
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Post by RustyDios on Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:45 am

I found a good wizzi/cleric combo (for melee anyway) was to get the auto-still feats for the number of wizzi spell-levels you have.... ... that way for those spell levels you can ignore ASF, and your wizzi/cleric can go fully armoured as divine spells ignore ASF too ..... ... a fully armoured wizzi/cleric with a decent weapon, auto-still feats and superior combat casting becomes a rather effective melee caster (for solo and party-play), and with the right buffs becomes hard to kill and can help the group out .... and don't forget the "potions of renewal", and scrolls... ... ....

.... As a follower of Zolaras would it be worthwhile maybe to have say 4 cleric levels and go 10 Dead-stalker (semi-class) ?.. I've not played with a dead-stalker yet.... you could also consider going sorc instead of wizzi, with more casts/day of your favorite insta-kill spells, add in some metamagic feats (usable for both your cleric and arcane) and accesable to your lowly sorc via pm levels.... (just because you don't know spells of that level as a sorc the "slots" are still given to you for the PM levels ~ just check your radials!) ..... ....

And for the help it gives I'd say ANY wizzi/cleric build should consider being a Bright Gnome, nothing quite compares to that starting bonus of +4wis/+4int .... add some points into Cha if you really want to use the cleric divine feats and turning abilities .... .. ....
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Post by mighty moomin on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:29 am

Demon Spawn is a good choice for Cleric/Sorc builds too.
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Post by Amethyst347 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:15 pm

Wow, loads of great info and suggestions. Will have a bit to think about, but at least I have a better idea of how to approach this character. I wasn't really considering trying for Divine Might/Shield this go 'round, since I thought you really needed to build up your CHA in order to make it worth it. Is it worth the skill/feat investment if you're not gonna have a massive CHA?

Thanks, everyone. I knew you guys wouldn't let me down! PC build question Icon_smile
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:36 pm

It is of course better with very high charisma (more benefit, longer duration, more uses per day).... but it can also still be useful for you if you have say, just 18 base cha, and +12 worth of enhancements.
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Post by daveyeisley on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Divine Might and Shield add a bonus to damage or AC equal to your cha, and have a duration of rounds equal to your CHA as well... add to that, the uses per day are based off your turn undead ability which is CHA bonus +3. So I would say its probably not worth it unless you end up with a CHA of 22 or better for a +6 bonus for six rounds per use, 9 times/day.... mind you... 22 cha can be gotten with a 10 base cha and +12 enhancement from items.
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