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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:40 pm

So, I'm horribly unmotivated to play Derfel these days. Not sure why... I think it may be the inclusion of Paladin. For whatever reason, putting Paladin in a build makes in instantly unlikable. Now yes, the Bard/Paladin combo is potent. The songs make him a pretty good commander, bard has good buffs... Paladin gives access to Holy Avenger and Divine Might/Divine Shield.

I just cant think of what I'd rather play. I have a lot of fun with Kasigi now, as a fast-moving strike trooper, able to switch between twin ninjato, any form of ranged weapon, and his traditional katana/wakizashi, buffing solely with potions and a few ranger spells...

If I could identify what makes Kasigi so much more fun than Derfel, I'd have a better idea of how I want to rebuild him. Maybe it's speed? Maybe it's the fact that Kasigi is very focused, and is good at what he does, and Derfel is very unfocused, and good at what people said he should be good at, which are all things I'm unfamiliar with.

So, with the first level being fighter, what sort of options does a human serving Dalix have?
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:11 pm

Champion of Dalix (fighter bonus feats, +1AB/level, divine wrath, bonus to saves, smite evil and lay of hands)....

With bard (or any other UMD class) you can still use holy avengers (either Luminaria, or a weapon with holy sword cast on it)... you need enough UMD to gain the benefit though (for a base "holy avenger", 25 total UMD... more if you got your weapon crystalled up and such).

I think you have the right idea... focus on what makes the character fun for you, and build for that. Do you enjoy spelll slinging, or would you rather bash stuff over the head? Do you want a strong melee presence, or strong party support skills?

Another consideration... particularly for if you want to do more melee-smashing... what're Derfel's STR and DEX scores? You could capitalize on the highest, or work a suitable balance between the two.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:00 am

Strength is the higher of the two, with Dex having a base of 18, I think, not sure where strength is at lvl 1, but it's at 24 now.
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Post by daveyeisley on Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:53 am

Does it have to do with dual-wielding? Movement speed?

Kasigi strikes me as a bit simpler, overall. While he has options in combat, they are tactically straighforward and dont require on the fly micromanagement. He is basically point, click, kill... and he does it with two-weapon samurai/ninja style.

Derfel always struck me as more of a tactician. The whole goddamn batman thing. He was strong, and tough.... but perhaps not a speed demon. He favored heavy protection over mobility and movement. He was built to have lots of options for tackling different situations, but this would mean having more to manage during combat with feat/power usage.

It really does come down to what you want to do... what you will enjoy doing with the character. My impressions may not be accurate, or you may want to go in a totally different direction.... but the first step is deciding in a general sense what will be fun to play.
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Post by Grey_Stooge on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:09 am

This is why I only make tanks.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:33 am

Made a list of some options in chapel this morning.

Fighter/Champion of Dalix/Bard
-Similiar to what I have now, only with no leveling shenanigans, and way more bonus feats.

Fighter/Bard/Shadowdancer
-Surprisingly doable, with a base 18 in Dex. The motto for this build was "Hit, run, hide. The Highland way."

Fighter/Weaponmaster/Bard
-Could do this with any number of weapons, but it would be pretty riidiculous with a spear.
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Post by RustyDios on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:18 pm

Maeglin Dubh wrote:Made a list of some options in chapel this morning.

Fighter/Weaponmaster/Bard
-Could do this with any number of weapons, but it would be pretty riidiculous with a spear.

Would be mental with a scythe too ... x5 critical multipler.... or dual-weilded rapiers with 10-20 crit range (by level 7 weaponmaster).... ... ...
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:05 pm

With weapon master, the crit range/multiplier is the usual benefit characters get out of the class. The AB bonus is nice too, but it doesn't really shine until you start going into epic WM levels. At WM 7, it's only a +1 AB boost. It doesn't raise to +2 until WM 13 or 14.... so lower levels of WM... crit-junkies gain the better benefit. AB junkies don't see as much benefit until they hit around 20 WM levels.

Of the other two ideas... the fighter/bard/champ may give you more of the "fighter-smashing" fun you're aiming for.

The fighter/bard/SD can be that too.. and it would open up the possibility for one of the best defensive feats around too, epic dodge.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Derfel with Epic Dodge would be amazing. I'll have to look over the requirements for that and see how feasible it is. All these builds will have a minimum of 20 Bard.

EDIT: So, to do Epic Dodge, I need 10 Shadowdancer levels. So I think I'll do 12 fighter pre-epic, drop bard to 18, and do Shadowdancer to 10. Keep my pre-epic BAB to 18.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:11 pm

That's a decent combo. 18 bard still gets you +5 dodge AC with bard song, you'll have 2 of the 6th level bard spells (energy buffer and ice storm or mass haste)... Not sure what the aenean bardsongs are at for that level, but they should still be pretty good.

Epic dodge requries 25 dex, 30 tumble, improved evasion and defensive roll. Imp. evasion and defensive roll are feats you get for free with SD (defensive roll at 5 SD, imp. evasion at 10 SD). you can get 30 tumble at level 27.

For the dex, you could put all your points into dex during level ups, and take a great dexterity prior to level 27... that'll give you the min 25 dex by level 27. Or you could skip the great dex feat, and wait until level 30 for epic dodge.

One other thing to consider I just thought of... your AB. You could go all out on the dex and get 28 dex (not counting any great dex feats)... that'd be 40 dex with a full +12 from dex items.... but you'd have to take weapon finesse and use a finessable weapon for the better AB. The impaler's not a finessable weapon unfortunately. You could go the min 25 dex, and pump your STR up as much as possible, do a somewhat even split like you did with Kasigi... depends on what your base level 1 STR is and how much you can raise it along with the dex.

Without knowing what your base STR is, it'd be hard to say if the impaler's +10 enhancement bonus can make up for the lower STR or not.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:15 pm

When I go into the relevel chamber, I'll have to see what my base Str is.

Besides, I'm also considering the possibility of speccing in Greatsword instead to more accurately emulate the Braveheart theme.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:07 pm

Ok... so, factoring in the 17 base dex, the point into int for the extra +1 multiplier.... and the requried 16 cha for bard spells...

for 12 fighter, 18 bard, 10 SD, You could get (base, not with enhancement items...) 26 dex, 26 STR, 16 cha, epic dodge, EWF, epic prowress(my bad... can't fit this one in given the 17 base dex), and your AB with a plain non-enhance greatsword would be 40. With a +5 greatsword and +12 worth of STR enhancing items, 51 AB.... 53 with Warcry, 63 with warcry and warhulk. 64 if you tack a green ioun on top of all that.

AC with +5 on your ring/amulet/boots, +8 bracers, dusty rose ioun, haste, maxed tumble, and bardsong... 51 while using a greatsword, 57 while using a shield of force and a 1 handed weapon, or 59 while using a +5 tower shield.

Plus you'll have epic dodge, HiPs, 50% concealment from either improved invisibility spell or Displacement spell, 6 attacks per round (+53/+48/+43/+38/+53 with the greatsword while hasted, no warhulk)


Last edited by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:25 pm

And the levelup progression for that would be.... assuming you want the songs quaking chorus, soothing refrain, and curse song.... and assuming you'll take weapon focus and specialization with two of the 6 fighter bonus feats available)...

1 Fighter1 - (whatever feats you chose when you rolled up Derfel)
2 Fighter2 - (fighter bonus feat)
3 Fighter3 - Dodge
4 Fighter4 - (fighter bonus feat) +1 Int
5 Fighter5
6 Fighter6 - (fighter bonus feat), Mobility
7 Fighter7
8 Fighter8 - (fighter bonus feat) +1 Dex(18 dex)
9 Bard1 - Quaking Chorus
10 Fighter9
11 Fighter10 - (Fighter bonus feat)
12 Bard2 - Soothing Refrain, +1 Dex (19 dex)
13 Fighter11
14 Fighter12 - (fighter bonus feat)
15 Bard3 - Curse Song
16 Bard4 - +1 Dex (20 dex)
17 Bard5
18 Bard6 - Lingering Song (If you want an extra 5 rounds to your bard songs... or you could go for extend spell, to increase the durations of your bard spells like haste and displacement)
19 Bard7
20 Bard8 - +1 Dex (21 dex)
--epic levels--
21 ShadowDancer1 - Great Charisma I (14 cha)
22 ShadowDancer2
23 ShadowDancer3
24 ShadowDancer4 - Great Chasima II (15 cha), +1 Dex (22 dex)
25 ShadowDancer5 - (Free SD feat Defensive Roll)
26 ShadowDancer6
27 ShadowDancer7 - Great Dexterity I (23 dex)
28 ShadowDancer8 - +1 Dex (24 dex)
29 ShadowDancer9
30 ShadowDancer10 - Epic Weapon Focus (free SD bonus feat imp. evasion)
31 Bard9
32 Bard10 - +1 Dex (25 dex)
33 Bard11 - Epid Dodge (be sure to have 30 tumble by this point)
34 Bard12
35 Bard13
36 Bard14 - Great Charisma III (16 cha), +1 Dex (26 dex)
37 Bard15
38 Bard16
39 Bard17 - Great Strength 1 (Str 25
40 Bard18 - +1 Str (26 STR)
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:37 pm

Tweaked the list a bit... built it with a base 18 dex instead of 17... so I swapped out epic prowress for a great strength.... +1 AB overall, but maintains the same base damage bonus. The +2 from bardsong should make up for that and +1 more though.

Also.. with the pre-epic fighter feats... you could use them for dodge and mobility, and use the general feats for something else.... swap one of the bard levels down to those early levels to grab a bard-based feat (extend spell, bard songs, ect), or keep it a fighter level and grab whatever.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh on Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:07 pm

I like that the fighter feats are pretty much do as I like.

Knockdown or disarm? Hmm...
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