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Post by daveyeisley on Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm

So, with heal spells being buffed so that it is no longer a penalty to have a gabillion hitpoints....

How do we assess the impact of this change and take advantage of it?

A dwarven cleric of Asis, of course!

I am thinking for classes, we want Cleric 11 minimum, Fighter X, and Dwarven Defender 10

Looking for damage reduction and hitpoints galore from feats, etc.

Max out that constitution first and foremost and make sure you can
get wisdom 16 base at least (so you can pop off a heal spell).

The basic idea is to have a HUGE hitpoint pool that you can
heal to full by popping a heal spell in a pinch.

I havent gotten time to get down to specifics and number
crunching yet, but perhaps this tidbit will be enough to
get others to look at those things and suggest paths to
make it work out well.

We can discuss permutations, etc...
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue May 04, 2010 3:04 pm

I'd go 16 cleric, access to mass heals. 16 cleric/4 fighter pre-epic, I'd say go 18 DD, 2 fighter post epic. EWS from fighter(or use the bonus feat for one of the EDR's), -/12 DR from DD, add to that the epic DR feats, -/21 DR. You could swap around the levels to get in DD earlier, but divine power will make up for the lower AB.

Maxing con, you could do all the epic general feats as great cons, take the EDR feats on the fighter bonus feat and two DD bonus feats. That'll preclude access to epic weapon focus/prowress/whatever, but if the point is super tank with full healing... AB's not a huge issue.

404HP+con bonus, 26BAB at 40th, effective 30BAB with divine power, -/21DR, -/26 with dwarven plate armor. AB in general may be just average... you'll need 13 min dex for DD, plus you're aiming to max con on top of the min wisdom for the spells, and if going 16 cleric, that's 18 wisdom for the 8th level spells, but overall, +3 tome, +4 from warhulk, that's +7 str right there...

AB actually shouldn't be a problem. Divine favor, divine power, tensors potions, warhulk and tomes, you should be able to get a relatively decent AB, I'd guess around +54 with buffs, but that's just off the top of my head, no math checking.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue May 04, 2010 3:44 pm

Stoneheart dwarf, starting stats, str9, dex 11, con 20(22 with stoneheart bonus), 8 int, 16 wis, 6 cha. 16 cleric, 4 fighter, 10DD, 2 fighter, 8DD levelling, everything into con, EDR feats on bonus feat levels fighter/DD, general feats great con I-VII. Pre epic feats, toughness, dodge... everything else whatever.... I'd say go some meta magic feats (for the non-heal curing spells, exotic weapons (soul gathering sword)... still a few feas to play with as wanted.

Will need warhulk, +3 con/str tomes, +2 dex, wis and int tomes...

Final stats, 16 str, 13 dex, 42 con, 10 int, 18 wis, 6 cha (8 wth book). 44 con with +5 book.... 64 con with stat buys from Shae, that'll add another 440 HP.

Base HP 1084, 1324 with +12 con gear. 1764 HP with +5 book, +20 stat buys and +12 gear. 3528 HP with abundant life amulet on top of all that.

Assuming +12 gear for all relevant stats:

15 base AC, 54 with 20 tumble, full plate, +8 bracers, +5 tower, ring, amulet, boots. 58 with haste potions.

+57 AB with +5 weapon, divine power/favor, prayer, battletide, and tensors potion. 4 APR base, 6 APR with tensors/haste.

40 base fort save, 54 fort saved buffed. 17 base reflex save, 23 buffed, 25 base will save, 31 buffed.

4 casts of heal, 3 casts of mass heal base. 6 heals, 4 mass heals with +12 wisdom gear. This doesn't include still-spell slots used for heal.

-/21 base DR, -/31 with -/10 resistance gear.
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Post by RustyDios on Tue May 04, 2010 4:00 pm

I think a tank build like this should focus on a heavy xbow ... just for the "aim/fire main cannon" thingy..... .... can you guys work that in to this ?? .... how about adding in some Ironheart for the shear damage negating properties ??....... or Dragonsoul/con boost instead of normal RDD ??.....
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue May 04, 2010 5:58 pm

Could go XBow, but the benefit would be only a +1AB, and with the cost of having to take the rapid reload feat for the same APR, and zen archery feat to get the wisdom modifier for AB instead of dex. Str damage would be limited to the mighty property on the bow too, and just on average, bows have less possible damage output (1d4 elementals on an everfull quiver, can't dwarf upgrade those, str bonus limited by mighty, no magical/pos/neg damage unless you use special arrows (and crystal them up, costly and all that). Divine damage would be possible, with divine might, but the CHA would be very low, so it'd be a very limited use.

Ironheart would negate the crit threat, sure, but at the loss of -/12 DR. The higher AC would be good though. In that case, I'd go 20 cleric, 10 ironheart, 10 fighter, get in more bonus feats post-epic, stilled-mass heals.

In that case too I'd go gnome over dwarf, badgerkin gnomes get a +4 to con, so the end result would be 66 con with all possible boosts.

Dragonsoul can get more con in too, but again with the loss of the damage resistance which is a big part of dave's idea I think. The dragonsoul would have higher AC though as well like the ironheart combo.

But, when you're tanking a couple thousand HP... and can fully heal... being hit isn't too much of an issue Wink
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Post by daveyeisley on Tue May 04, 2010 8:06 pm

Yeah AC isnt a big deal past 50 or so, for a hitpoint build like this.

The DR is useful against the physical damages, and elemental resists and be upgrades for the most part. The real threats some in pos/neg/magic/divine damages.

If you sacrifice some DR, you will take more dmg on average, but extra hps are very attractive due to the full heal option. The more hps available, the less risk of not getting the heal off in time, as depending on circumstances... the "casting lag" can seem like an eternity before you can get the spell off.

Both paths are valid i think, in the end the idea is being able to totally outlast just about any threat. Provided you dont get hit with spell failure, or any sort of disabling conditions... it would take a DAMN long time to kill you. And that time can be used to good effect in myriad ways.

Dragonsoul does have some nifty permutations, especially with a CON focused heritage.

All in all, while the DR is very attractive, I think I might end up on the more CON and hps end of things... badger gnome would work well for that... (it is arcane spell failure, right? not generic spell failure?)


Last edited by daveyeisley on Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue May 04, 2010 8:08 pm

The homepage says arcane, but I dunno if it's actually just arcane (as with crag's stone armor) or general (tensors, which blocks divine casting as well as arcane).
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Post by Svair on Tue May 04, 2010 9:34 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:

...3528 HP with abundant life amulet on top of all that.


Heh...that's 300+ HPs over Phyllick's* HP. Clerical Juggernaut Tank Icon_eek





* And that's merely assuming Phyllick actually was able buy that +20 Con, get that +5 Tome, etc...
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Post by daveyeisley on Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:48 am

My take on it is pretty basic, going for straight up, maxxed out hps.

Bard 6, White Dragonsoul 10, Cleric of Asis 24

Badger Gnome

Alignment: True Neutral until level 15, then Neutral Good

Str 11
Dex 8
Con 20
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

1-5 Bard
6-15 White Dragonsoul (still or silent spell , extend spell)
16-39 Cleric (as much great CON as possible)
40 Bard (Tumble and Discipline)

And looking at it, this build oddly makes me consider a stoneblood dwarf white dragonsoul/firestarter Smile
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Post by A_Vagabond on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:25 pm

Firestarter will lose the full heal spells, tho.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:52 pm

That's a good point... Firestarter requires Conflagral as a patron deity.

Even still... with 33% HP healed per heal spell, with this build's HP, that's a lotta healed HP.
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Post by daveyeisley on Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:20 pm

Oh, sorry the firestarter idea was an off-topic thought.... I was merely throing it out there as a way to optimize a firestarter build by cranking CON.... by no means was it intended as a cleric/healer build..... after all... if you want dragonsoul, you gotta go bard or sorceror, and then with dragonsoul and firestarter that is all 3 classes you can have. Cleric wont fit.
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