Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

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Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri May 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Hi, all.

So, I'm finally back to putting serious thought into the redesign of epic spells here in Aenea. In fact, it's been bugging me for three days now as I do household chores and bake a birthday cake. Then I thought "Hey! You've got a bunch of great players. Why not see what you can come up with with their help?". So, I'm taking my own advice. Razz

Here's what I've got going so far...

Requirements:
1. epic character (21st level and up)
2. Epic Magic feat (already automatically added for epic level clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards)

Epic Spell Research:


Epic casters would need to "research" each epic spell. This would involve access to a specific (not yet made) "great" library area + gold + xp + high enough Spellcraft skill to cast the desired spell.

In this "great library", casters would custom design their own epic spells by interacting with certain placeables and using certain VC commands (which would be explained in the descriptions of the placeables). At the end of picking the different options for the spells, a final cost in gold and experience would be calculated. If paid by the caster, that spell gets permanently (barring reincarnation/ascension) added to a list of up to 50 epic spells the caster "knows". I'd make the default epic spells options for those "in a hurry".

Tentative research VC commands (only functional in the "great library" chamber):
- research epic spell xxxxxx (replace xxxxxx with desired name of spell...this is permanent, so think carefully! Other players will see this when you cast your epic spell as your character "shouts out" the name of the spell (no not in the shout channel))
- research epic seed xxxxx (replace xxxxx with desired "seed" effect, numbers found on crystal descriptions in library)
- research epic mod xxxxx (replace xxxxx with desired "modifiers" from one or more categories)
- research epic review (can use more than once to review stats of the new spell in progress)
- research epic restart (start over from scratch if a mistake was made or you just run out of time to play)
- research epic finalize (if you have less than 40 epic spells known (50 for brainy wizards), have enough spare gold and xp and high enough Spellcraft, you get the spell added to your list)

Epic Spell Seeds: These will be placeables in the "great library" that provide a base to build epic spells from. When researching a new epic spell, you will enter a specific code number found on the seed crystal placeable to determine the actual effect of the spell. Following are the seeds and some code number examples (not necessarily the final code numbers or DCs in the scripting, as this is a work in progress).

Afflict
10100: -3 saves, skills checks, attack rolls (Spellcraft DC: 20)
10101: -10 spell resistance (Spellcraft DC: 50)
10102: -10 Strength (Spellcraft DC: 50)
10103: -10 Dexterity (Spellcraft DC: 50)
Animate Dead
Armor
Banish
Compel
Conceal
Conjure
Destroy
Dispel
Energy
Fortify
Heal
Life
Reveal
Slay
Summon
Transform
Transport
Ward

Epic Spell Casting:

To cast an epic spell, the caster would "use" one of the focus's special powers on a target creature/location/placeable. Upon a successful Spellcraft check, the caster would then cast the spell. Each epic spell would have to be assigned one of eight "slots" ahead of time via VC command for this form of activation.

An additional option will be to use a VC command (for picking spell) along with the Epic Magic feat (for targeting/actual casting).

The Spellcraft DC would be determined by the options chosen during spell research. Failure to meet or exceed the DC would mean a wasted daily "casting". Outside of combat, the caster would automatically "take 20". In combat, it would be a d20 roll. There'd be an option you could set to always "take 10" when in combat, and a new feat that would give you an extra +10 just for epic spellcasting.

The Spellcraft roll will be modified for non-wizards, removing the "Int modifier" and replacing it with the modifier for the main casting ability of the epic spellcasting class. I figured a sorcerer heavily invested in Charisma should get as much casting ability as a similarly invested wizard. Same goes for clerics/druids and Wisdom.

Epic castings per day: Like PnP D&D, I'm looking at 1 casting per 10 (base) ranks in Spellcraft. But, since in PnP a caster can just make everyone wait a day for more castings (by casting charm person, if necessary ), I also want to add 1 casting per 10 caster levels (for up to 8 castings of any known epic spells per day at 40th level). So...8 hellballs, or 8 greater ruins, 5 epic wardings and 3 dragon knights....

So, what does everyone think?

Of course, existing epic casters would get a bonus relevel scales item in order to redo their epic caster levels and find other uses for those open feats previously taken up by epic spells.


Last edited by The Amethyst Dragon on Thu May 27, 2010 10:01 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : reworking info as discussion progresses...)

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RayvenNightkind on Fri May 21, 2010 4:38 pm

I don't know to much bout the in's and out's of epic casting, but me likey!
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Papa-Lenin on Fri May 21, 2010 4:50 pm

Would this mean that cleric and druid will be able to cast epic mage armor and epic warding now?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri May 21, 2010 4:53 pm

Papa-Lenin wrote:Would this mean that cleric and druid will be able to cast epic mage armor and epic warding now?
Yes, but not now...when I get the time to makes changes to the system.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Papa-Lenin on Fri May 21, 2010 4:56 pm

It sounds very nice, much better imitating PnP system. Perhaps instead of tossing all the seeds to one 'great library' it would be more interesting to add them to various bosses around the world? To keep things a bit more interesting.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Fri May 21, 2010 5:04 pm

I've said this once... but I still think it would be great to incorporate the work below into Aenea .. I like how that system works... it sounds similiar to the above req's too (esp version 2)....

Epic Spellcasting System

I'll give some more thought behind specifically what you've got already, because it sounds good... but I'm no caster, and my prowess and knowledge of the magic system in general isn't as good as others here....
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri May 21, 2010 6:17 pm

RustyDios:

I looked at that epic casting system. Some good ideas, but still not as much freedom to customize as I'd like...

They add various spell seeds, researched spells, and actually spells as feats that can be added to your PC's "skin" as item properties (actually a pretty good idea), but you're limited to 7 at a time (due to being added to the epic spells radial menu). Plus, it adds a crapload of item blueprints and tons of scripts to the module.

Papa-Lenin:

I wouldn't want to limit the "seeds" to being dropped by different boss creatures. The spells are going to be expensive to research already, and I think a PC should be able to research almost any epic spell he/she is interested in without having to jump through more hoops.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri May 21, 2010 6:33 pm

So... what sort of effects are we talking here? I could list a plethora of ideas for spell properties.... but that all depends on what's going to be a viable
property. That also depends on what equation is going to be used for calculating the DC.

Over all, I love the idea. I've always been rather disappointed with the relatively weak epic spells...


Also, for reference, how many are we looking at being able to learn at one time?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri May 21, 2010 6:59 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:So... what sort of effects are we talking here? I could list a plethora of ideas for spell properties.... but that all depends on what's going to be a viable
property. That also depends on what equation is going to be used for calculating the DC.

Over all, I love the idea. I've always been rather disappointed with the relatively weak epic spells...


Also, for reference, how many are we looking at being able to learn at one time?

Types of effects will vary depending on the "seeds" chosen.

With this, you'll be able to make some very powerful (but harder to cast) epic spells.

You could learn many, many epic spells.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri May 21, 2010 7:19 pm

So.. what exactly are you looking for suggestions on?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Eric of Atrophy on Fri May 21, 2010 9:54 pm

I think this thread sounds ... well, epic!

However, I've only ever played a sorceress, so I will be of little use here...

But expect to see my 2 cents regardless! (by the way, when did they take the cent character off of the keyboard?)
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri May 21, 2010 11:42 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:So.. what exactly are you looking for suggestions on?
Does this sound good to you? Is there anything you think could improve on this? Have you ever played an epic caster in D&D (and if so, any insight on this?)? Any suggestions for images for "seed" images or "epic scroll" icons?

My only real exposure to epic magic is via NWN...and even then I've got only one epic caster for a character.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Sat May 22, 2010 4:25 am

I think it would be cool if the epic scroll icons were all similiar to the old granted/spell / identify/legend lore icons .... ... a coloured transparent spell image... I always liked that those looked kinda like "floating magical spells " in my inventory... ..

For the base Epic Spells using the icons we have now would be good out of familarity... depending on what the new spells do I'm sure we (you) could design a spell icon to match (I mean you've currently around 100+ spells with neat icons)..... ...

What I do think though is maybe we should have the epic spell icon a 2x2 icon (book size) and the seed icons 1x1 (scroll size)... this way to me signifies that the seeds are smaller then the epic spells and you need seeds to make an epic spell (which is a larger and more powerful spell then normal spells)... .... ..


I noticed that the Epic Spell cast system above would add a cr*pload of junk to Aenea, but I wanted to use it as a starting point for brainstorming our own system... it has alot of good ideas... ...

Personally I don't mind the 7 epic spells at any one time thing using the radial, afterall how much epic knowledge can you keep in your brain for casting at any one time ? ... ... the way that system also uses the rest button could be transfered to the pc crystal too...


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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sat May 22, 2010 9:01 am

I love the idea of customizable epic spells. (Then again, I usually like the idea of customizable anything) It grants flexibility to players, and allows players to use epic spells as another way to express their character's personality.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sat May 22, 2010 2:18 pm

I am liking the idea as stated thus far Smile

8 epic spells per day is very tasty. Being able to customize the epic spells known in-game is a phenomenal idea but I am worried that the scripting end of things will be uncooperative *crosses fingers*

I realize the reason why, and I understand the intent, but I dislike the idea of a spellcraft check not based on Int mod for non-wizards.

Int mod is fine for spellcraft checks (like identifying spells being cast for counterspelling in combat), and yes, this lends an advantage to Wizards, I know. I believe this was intended as part of game design, PnP and NWN.

Provided the seed combinations do not result in prohibitively high DCs, however, this shouldnt be a large limitation on what seed combos other classes are able to handle. (And remeber that gear can give spellcraft bonuses up to +50 in order to simulate higher Int on the checks, even if it wont affect castings per day).

Mainly I just dont want to totally homogenize epic magic (although some standardization would be very good, such as allowing all epic classes access to all the 'seeds' - so that clerics bard and druids could most likely cast spells like epic mage armor, etc). By design its based off spellcraft skill and I think that is a design choice made with the intent of intelligence having a defnite impact on the heights to which a PC can rise in their scale of viable epic spell DCs.

In the end I believe the significance of that will truly be determined by how the seeds are designed. Basically the highest DC combinations would be easiest for heavy Intelligence invested wizards (though not impossible for other PCs to achieve, unless specifically designed with that intent). So how you plan out the seeds is a HUGE factor. If the high ends seeds are more offensive and 'arcanish' in nature, it would make sense that the class most dedicated to magical research would have an edge based on their primary stat.

Wizards were designed to be the guys who 'know' more about the mechanics of magic, and epic spells are when that knowledge really starts to show their true power (especially in the realm of offensive magic, as arcane casters best and most solid offense is magical in nature by necessity, as their class restrictions and progressions dont lend well to offense of any other type really). The stereotypical wizard having a higher int mod for those spellcraft checks wouldnt unbalance epic magic, and from a roleplay standpoint makes a ton of sense.

For the most part, the common seed combinations for defensive effects (or summoning etc) would result in DCs that are accessible to just about all epic casters. Its really just the high end seeds/combos that would end up slanted towards wizards, I think... so deciding which seeds are in that 'class' will be critical in balancing the system.

I would say, let the spellcraft check remain as is, but carefully craft and design the seeds and their DCs. The seeds are where deviation from PnP standards would fit best, I think, as in my experience the published seeds in the Epic level handbook seem somewhat arbitrary in their mechanical values, so adjusting them wouldnt cause much problem.


Last edited by daveyeisley on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 12:07 am

I could go either way with the spellcraft check.

I will say however, if it does remain based of int modifier, to give an edge to wizards, a fuller implementation of the epic handbook rules should be done as well to give clerics and druids their due "edge" as well.

The rules out of the epic level handbook list knowledge arcana/nature/religion as being extremely relevant for creating epic spells (an epic wizard with loads of arcana could not create an epic spell with the life or healing seeds without at least X amount of ranks in nature or religion).

We already have the knowledge arcana/nature/religion skills, and this would be the perfect opportunity to actually have them DO something.

(and on a side note... they need to be fixed methinks? My epic druid has a nature knowledge skill of +2, while my epic wizard has +28... that's simply just not right in the slightest... perhaps tweak them to be controllable as with regular skills?).

I would also suggest using the DC's listed in the epic level handbook as a guideline, but not forbidden to be changed. I just glanced through it, and on the text it was listing a 64th wizard in an example of creating an epic spell, and a 100+ DC is within the grasps of a 60+ character, but not within the reasonable grasp of a 40th level max character. It COULD be achieved via ascension and a couple voucher items with +10 spellcraft on them, but it'd be a really be a bad idea to have DC's hitting numbers to make ascension and voucher items a necessity even for an Int focused/spellcraft focused pure class wizard, even on the most complicated spells.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 12:19 am

As for other concerns.

PLEASE don't do non-transferable scrolls.

It would be MUCH better to do it with a VC system rather than inventory clutter, but if it does have to be inventory clutter, please keep the scrolls transferable so they can be stuck in a scroll case... and please nothing larger than 1x1 icons.

Inventory clutter would REALLY turn me off from epic magic, even if it was really good.

With my spell casters, limited quickslots is already a problem without adding in X number of items for the epic spells as well, which would then require keeping the inventory window open, and that would suck completely.

I would suggest the VC system for the simplicity of play as well as a lack of inventory clutter.

The MotM vc system works as a great standard.

When a PC creates an epic spell, that "spell" gets added to their epic spell list. To view what spells one has researched, type a VC command like the command to view captured MotM beasties.

To USE the spell, enter in the selection command (something like maybe ESC 1 (Epic Spell Casting), and then use the "epic spell casting feat" on the target for the spell, much like when using the granted diety spell feats. The spell fires off according to the effects of the stored info in the VC list for that particular spell.

The "spell slots" for the epic spells could be tracked as well without needing multiple non-transferable scrolls clogging inventory. The shifter shapes can be used as an example. The abilities of the specific shapes are, by the icon "unlimited", but they are limited use by certain variables... when you reach your limit of uses for the given ability, you're given an error message and the ability doesn't fire off.

The epic spell castings can be done the same via the "epic magic feat". Set it to "unlimited uses" by the NWN engine standard, but the script firing it off will keep track of not just which spell is used, but how many epic spell castings you have available. When you're out of epic castings, get the error message informing you of such, even if you can still 'target' creatures/objects with the feat itself.

Another concern....

Multi-classed epic spell casters... actually only ONE scenerio where this will happen, but it is a possibility... PM 15+epic cleric or epic druid. What considerations will be made for such builds as they are epic spell casters in both divine and arcane magic? If the key-casting stat for the spellcraft check is used, how would such a build determine what casting stat to use?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 8:32 am

I totally agree on the knowledge skills, it would be awesome if they governed access to some of the relevant seeds. It would also be nice to somehow be able to exert some control over how your knowledge skills grow as you level up (ie. each class gets X number of points, and using a VC command you can spend the points as you wish).

Seed DCs from the epic level handbook do make decent guildelines.... but for NWN I do think they will require changes for balance reasons, especially the example listed. Most of the seed combinations should be accessible to everyone, and most combinations that focused Wizards have trouble with should not require ascension or gear to achieve for a focused Int/Spellcraft wizard... this will allow other epic casters to achieve them via ascension and/or gear/feats.

I am not against one or two seed combos that are very specific in their effects that are geared towards wizards only (with nasty DCs), but considering that arcane magic is not supposed to heal, and divine magic is superior in certain realms of buffing... It would only be fair to have seeds available to divine casters that arcanists can not access as well (though the DCs should be lower to compensate).

I am not thrilled about non-transferable scrolls either, however.... the idea of needing to set what spell I want with a VC command is also unattractive... as it seems I would only be able to have 1 selected at a time for use with the feat, thus changing my epic spell would require typing... and typing during combat = suck.

I think a radial menu is the only effective solution, but being limited to 7 options also sucks. Is there any way to attach the epic magic feat to a higher ranked radial (like off the special abilities radial) so that a few sub radials could be tacked on for the spells? Perhaps on the sub radials have them correspond to the 'main/superior' seed for each epic spell known (epic spells could have a 'main' seed and secondary seeds when created) which would effectively allow the character to fill the entire subradial with epic spells that use the same main seed.

The quickslots are going to be a problem no matter what, unfortunately.... as I already don't have enough, and this is just one or several more things to try to squeeze in.... but if the spells are subradials off the epic magic feat... it would help a little. Sort of like how a rod with multiple abilities can be quickslotted, and to change the ability you want, you can just right click the quickslot and select a new ability from the radial. That could be done in combat.

I think keeping the spellcraft check as it is, with int as the modifying stat is good, but then using the knowledge skills to regulate access to seeds is also excellent. This would also resolve the issue of PM+Divine class both being able to use epic magic (though for casts/day, I dont think the arcane and divine caster levels should stack, and having two separate selections of epic magic would be a little unbalancing because the full spellcraft skill ranks would be used for both). Perhaps just have the levelup script check for the 'epic magic' feat, and if the PC already has it, the class they levelled up in when they gained the feat becomes their epic magic class, and they cannot gain the feat again with any other class.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 8:39 am

The two separate casting totals would be better I think, as that's how it's done in PnP (based of knowledge arcana/nature/religion ranks). That also allows the intent of such characters who are duel focused as both arcane and divine casters.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 8:48 am

The reason to go with just one epic magic selection was mainly because there is only one class combo that can raise the issue, and the PM class (even if it was fixed to properly gain 1/2 caster level) is not a full spellcasting class, despite access to epic spells. As it stands now, a PM + other casting class combo simply doesnt work as a hybrid caster (as the arcane side will just suck).

The spellcraft skill would gain each one 4 casts/day for a total of 8 uses before considering any caster levels which I personally think is unbalanced as well.

I can see PMs getting use of epic spells if that is the only class that grants access to the PC, but if the PC has PM and another epic casting class, I think the other class should be the controlling one for epic magic (as the PC has invested more levels than into PM and it would be a full spellcasting class).

I think giving two separate allottments of epic spells per day for splitting your magical focus would be against the intent of epic magic. The epic spells are what you gain for dedicating yourself to one magical path. Splitting focus should hamper, not increase, your ability to use epic magic.

At least thats what I believe.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 9:19 am

PM's are a full spellcasting class though. They can have access up to 9th level spells, and even though the caster level is reduced compared to a pure class wizard or sorc, a PM with 10 wiz, sorc, or bard is still boasting 25 caster levels (if they got the 1/2 caster level as they do in PnP). The criteria for getting epic magic is ability to cast 9th level spells and epic character, so I really don't see why a special rule baring a specific class from it would be necessary

I'll have to disagree that it's against the intent of epic magic as well, as going by the epic level handbook, it mentions a case of a caster having both divine and arcane epic spells, and specifically lists the criteria for determining the allotment of epic spells available to such a character... that simply would not have been put in if it was contrary to the intent.

And on that note as well, the introduction of PMs in the tome and blood manual mention PMs often supplementing their skillset with a divine caster class, which also lends credence to the idea of a duel-focused arcane/divine caster.

The only differentiation from the standard PnP rules and the suggested system so far is in PnP, the casts per day get worked off the relevant knowledge skills rather than the spellcraft check.

If we use the knowledge skills for the researching seed's DC, it probably would be good to work the casts-per-day off those skills as well to be closer to the PnP rules in that regard as well. For a PM/Divine combo, the casts per day would still be split between the two classes, but the character would have to invest in both skills to gain the high numbers for extra castings.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 9:57 am

We have a slight definition difference in the usage of the term "full spellcasting class". So, to clear that up, I will explain the definition that I use, and understand as the meaning of the term.

A "full spellcasting class" is a class that gains appropriate caster level increases each time the character gains a level in the class. Any class that gains caster levels at a less than 1 per 1 rate with class levels is not a "full spellcasting class".

We will simply have to agree to disagree on the point of whether or not a dual-caster should have the ability to gain more uses of epic magic per day than a pure single classed caster. I think the intent of both the PnP rules and The Amethyst Dragon's conversion is to reward focused characters with more usage and potency in their epic magic. If I am wrong, please correct me The Amethyst Dragon.

I don't disagree on using the knowledge skills for casts/day provided the PC can choose what knowledge skills they gain at levelup somehow.

One thing to note about the epic spellcasting rules in the Epic levl handbook is that while they are much better than what NWN offers, they are more cobbled together and less streamlined than any other part of the magic system. Using them as a guideline is a good idea, yes. NWN is going to need adjustments for them to work well, however.

Also note that I am not advocating barring PM's from epic spells, not even a little bit.

I am speaking about the single case (and a rather rare one) where a PM class combo would cause a conflict in the epic magic system as described. In any other case, I think PM's having access to epic spells should be fine. Their caster level (if it gets fixed) will max out at 25, meaning they will have less casts/day than a focused full casting class. What I speak against is a PM combo that gains equal or more casts/day compared to a single-classed focused spellcaster. That smacks of a loophole to me.

I have no issue with a PM combo perhaps gaining access to 'seed' combinations that normally would not be possible (due to divine/arcane class restrictions). It is simply the idea of such a character having equal or increased usage or potency over a focused character that does not seem balanced to me.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun May 23, 2010 10:45 am

Hi folks.

Sorry to be out of the forum for a while, I just did a stint in the ill-department that had me combining nausea with mild migraine symtoms, just bad enough for me to spend 10 straight hours in bed...in the middle of the day....and I missed out on a 10-hour Ninja Warrior marathon I was going to record for my kids.

So, on the epic casting stuff...

I was going with Spellcraft as the relevant skill simply because the "knowledge" skills are background coded and don't allow you to put ranks into them yourself at level-up (there were "issues" when I last tried to add actual new skills). It's a class skill for basically all caster classes. I figured that the "virtual swapping" of Int mod for Cha/Wis mod for the purpose of epic casting would equalize things for epic casters...

Yes, the Int mod is (and always will) be used with Spellcraft for identifying and counterspelling.

I plan on limiting certain epic spell seeds to certain caster classes (fortify/healing/life to clerics/druids, afflict/destroy/energy to sorcerers/wizards). Although this is definitely up to discussion/change.

As far as the "seeds" go, I don't plan on having them be items you carry around. More along the lines of bases of knowledge to build an epic spell with, available to anyone that qualifies. I was thinking like "here's a pillar (or something) for the afflict seed, and the description shows what can be done with this seed (subject to modifiers at the next step)."

As far as divine + PM...hmmm. The script can be written to figure the "class portion" of castings/day based on both. Add the PM + divine levels, divide by 10. A Clr 25/PM 15 would still be 40th level and gain 4 castings/day. I think that the cleric levels would open access to the fortify/heal/life seeds, while the PM levels would open access to the afflict/destroy seeds (leaving "energy" for the sor/wiz). The other castings/day would still come from base ranks in Spellcraft (up to 4 castings/day).

Looking at Spellcraft for casting (not counting ability modifiers):
Level 21: 24 (maxed ranks) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (epic skill focus) = +37
Level 40: 43 (maxed ranks) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (epic skill focus) = +56

Other modifiers: ability increases (up to +11 from level up and items/spells), skill increases from items (up to +50 with dedication and some additions by me in the toolset).

Radial vs. VC vs. item based casting: I'll put more thought into this today. Smile

I plan on getting everything hammered out before I do any scripting/2da editing/icon making/etc. Hopefully it will then be pretty straight-forward when coding.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 10:51 am

Just a quick input:

I think the Destroy seed would be better for wizards/sorcs exclusively, and the afflict and energy seeds could be for sorc/wiz/PM.

EDIT: Also, for PM casts/day, at best it should use one half of the PM level, as PMs only get 1 caster level per 2 class levels in PnP.

EDIT 2: On the PM cast level issue, ONLY the PM level should be halved, any Wiz or Sorc levels used to Qualify for PM should grant FULL benefit. So the formula would look something like :

[ClericLevel + DruidLevel + WizardLevel + Sorcerorlevel + BardLevel + .5(PaleMasterLevel - round down)]/10

Edit 3 (LOL): Also, perhaps classes which a PC has not reached epic level in should not contribute to Epic Spellcasting/day. So if Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, or Sorceror is below 21, they are not included, and if PM is below 15, it is not included. I think that would cinch up another loophole.

EDIT 4: Sheesh! hehe. Also, for Classes/levels determining Seed access, I think the same idea as for casting/day should apply. If the PC does not have enough levels in a class to qualify for epic magic in that class, then that class should not open access to additional epic spell seeds.


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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 11:23 am

Another note/clarify:

The feedback on not using 'non-transferable' items I believe was aimed specficially at the Epic spells a PC knows not cluttering inventory or quickslots, but still being easy to use in combat.

The seeds were assumed to be placeables in the great library area that only come into play during the research process and would never enter a PCs inventory... which sounds perfect to me.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Sun May 23, 2010 12:39 pm


Sort of like how a rod with multiple abilities can be quickslotted, and
to change the ability you want, you can just right click the quickslot
and select a new ability from the radial. That could be done in combat.

This sounds like a good idea to me ... instead of using "Epic Scrolls" ... why not use "epic rods"... a rod can hold up to 8 spells, we just need a copyitemandmodify script to add a new epic spell to an existing rod (creating a rod if one doesn't exist)(much the same way we add any itemproperty to an existing item))...
...the rod for the spell to be added to could be selected using the pc select tool, as part of the research process... ... This would allow players to configure their own epic spells in a way that suits them... ... and possibly save on clutter (how many spells will there be in total anyway?)...

How about we create a rod when we learn a seed ... we could then use the rod as a "local variable storage device", and a vc command to view the seeds we have learned... with the seed "pillars" scattered throughout the world in locations that make sense with refference to that seed.... when we find a lab/library/study area we can put our seeds together to make/learn/create a new epic spell, which gets added as a property to the rod... ....


I'm not sure all the idea's came out from my head as I wanted them too, but it went into overdrive mode for a second or two... then the wife and baby monster interrupted the thought proccess and now it's all gone blank again.... .... .... ...
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 12:57 pm

LOL poor Rusty. Great brainwaves halted by deferred family procedure call Smile

I think The Amethyst Dragon's idea for the seeds is the placeable in the great library is there for everyone to use, and add to an epic spell during the research process (provided the character can access the seed with their class levels). So you wouldn't technically 'learn' the seed. You would use the seed as an 'ingredient' in researching the spell formula, and then you would 'learn' the resulting formula as an epic spell which could be stored in a radial/rod/thingamabobberofsomesort for easy use in combat.

Now... for the seeds. We should make a list of the published seeds. and proposed class access for them to get started. Then we can discuss new seeds and their DCs and application.

Published Seeds and DCs(with my suggestions on class access):
Spoiler:

Foresee DC 11 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Afflict DC 14 (Cleric-Sorgath, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Armor DC 14 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Delude DC 14 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Summon DC14 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Ward DC 14 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Conceal DC 17 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Fortify DC 17 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Compel DC 19 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Dispel DC 19 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Energy DC 19 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Conjure DC 21 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Transform DC 21 (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Animate Dead DC 23 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Contact DC 23 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Animate DC 25 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Heal DC 25 (Cleric, Druid, Bard)
Slay DC 25 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Banish DC 27 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Life DC 27 (Cleric, Druid, Bard)
Reflect DC 27 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Transport DC 27 (Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master)
Destroy DC 29 (Cleric-Ragnor, Wizard, Sorceror)

So, this way Druids and Clerics wouldnt be so much with the afflicting or the destroying (with notable deific exceptions), but would be good at Heal and Life. Bards would lack Transform and Destroy, but also have Heal and Life. Sorcerors and Wizards lack Heal and Life, but have Afflict and Destroy. Pale masters cannot access destroy, but have all other wizard/sorc seeds.

I admit that Clerical Deities definitely deserve more attention regarding seed access. This is just to get the ball rolling for discussion.

Druids and clerics of other deities should probably have additional specific restricted seeds added to the list for them with mechanics and descriptions that fit the theme of the deity and capabilities of the respective spell lists. Pale Masters might also need an additional specific restricted seed to compensate them for loss of the destroy seed.

Just so folks who do not own the books can follow along if they wish, here is the relevant charts for other parts of the Epic Spell System. I will post published seed descriptions in a separate post.

Factors:
Spoiler:

Reduce casting time by 1 round (minimum 1 round)

+2
1-action casting time

+20
Quickened spell (limit one quickened action/round)

+28
Contingent on specific trigger1

+25
Components No verbal component

+2
No somatic component

+2
Duration2



Increase duration by 100%

+2
Permanent duration (apply this factor after all
other epic spell factors but before mitigating factors)


x5
Dismissible by caster (if not already)

+2
Range Increase range by 100%

+2
Target3




Add extra target within 300 ft.

+10
Change from target to area (pick area option
below)


+10
Change from personal to area (pick area option
below)


+15
Change from target to touch or ray (300-ft. range)

+4
Change from touch or ranged touch attack to target

+4

Area4



Change area to bolt (5 ft. x300 ft. or 10 ft. x150
ft.)


+2
Change area to cylinder (10-ft. radius, 30 ft.
high)


+2
Change area to 40-ft. cone

+2
Change area to four 10-ft. cubes

+2
Change area to 20-ft. radius

+2
Change area to target

+4
Change area to touch or ray (close range)

+4
Increase area by 100%

+4

Saving Throw



Increase spell’s saving throw DC by +1

+2

Spell
Resistance




Gain +1 bonus on caster level check to overcome
target’s spell resistance


+2
Gain +1 on caster level check to beat foe’s
dispel effect


+2

Other



Recorded onto stone tablet5

x2
Increase damage die by one step (d20 maximum)

+10

Notes on Factors:
Spoiler:

Unless stated otherwise, the same factor can be applied more than once.
1
Each contingent spell in use counts as a slot used from the caster’s
daily epic spell slots.

2
Seeds that already have an instantaneous or permanent duration cannot
be increased.

3
When changing a targeted or area seed to a touch or ranged attack,
the seed no longer requires a save if it deals damage, instead
requiring a successful attack roll. Seeds with a nondamaging effect
still allow the target a save. Area spells changed to touch or ranged
attacks now affect only the creature successfully attacked.

4
When changing a touch or ranged attack seed to a targeted seed, the
seed no longer requires an attack roll if it deals damage, instead
requiring a saving throw from the target. On a failed saving throw,
the target takes half damage. Area seeds changed to targeted seeds
now only affect the target. The GM determines the most appropriate
kind of saving throw for the epic spell.

5
Epic spells may only be inscribed on stone tablets or other
substances of equal or greater hardness. Once a spell is so
inscribed, another epic spellcaster can learn it without going
through the process of development. Once an inscribed epic spell is
learned by another epic spellcaster in this fashion, the tablet upon
which it is inscribed is destroyed and cannot be mended.

Mitigating Factors:
Spoiler:

Backlash 1d6 points of damage (max d6 = caster’s
HD x2)1


1
Burn 100 XP during casting (max 20,000 XP)

1
Increase casting time by 1 minute (max 10
minutes)2


2
Increase casting time by 1 day (max 100 days)2

2
Change from target, touch, or area to personal

2
Additional participants (ritual)

see Table: Additional Participants in
Rituals

Decrease damage die by one step (d4 minimum)

5

Notes on Mitigating Factors:
Spoiler:

Note:
Mitigating factors are always applied after all epic spell factors
(see above) are accounted for in the development of an epic spell.

1
The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to
backlash damage. For spells with durations longer than instantaneous,
the backlash damage is per round. If backlash damage kills a caster,
no spell or method exists that will return life to the caster’s
body without costing the caster a level—not even wish, true
resurrection, miracle,
or epic spells that return life to the
deceased. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one
level when they return him or her to life penalize a caster killed by
backlash two levels.

2
When increasing the casting time of a spell in order to reduce the
Spellcraft DC, a character must first “use up” the maximum of 10
minutes (for a total DC modifier of –20). After that, a character
can continue to add days to the casting time, with a further modifier
of –2 per day, up to the maximum of 100 days
[/size]


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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun May 23, 2010 1:19 pm

The way I'm looking at it, each researched epic spell will not be like a standard NWN spell (or feat). Instead, the "scroll" created at the end of researching will hold certain variables. When the "scroll" is used (no used up, just used), the "spell script" will read those variables to reconstruct the spell and have it take effect.

Something along the lines of:
1. PC activates "epic spell scroll" on an enemy.
2. generic epic spell script reads variables off the scroll (seed, modifiers), combines with caster info (caster level, casting ability modifier, etc.), then if Spellcraft DC is met/exceeded, caster does one of several "casting animations" before the effects happen to the target.

Using a rod would require that there be a different "epic spell" for every possible option.

For example:

Using just the Afflict seed with no modifiers, I'm looking at 8 options (each with a Long range, 1 creature target, with a Will save to negate):
-3 saves, skills checks, attack rolls
-10 spell resistance
-10 Strength
-10 Dexterity
-10 Constitution
-10 Intelligence
-10 Wisdom
-10 Charisma

Now, combine with modifiers available for each of these 8 options:
still, silent, double (or permanent) duration, change to a (huge, gargantuan, or colossal) sphere (area effect), increase save DC (by +5 or +10), offset Spellcraft DC by burning XP (multiple values possible), offset Spellcraft DC by burning HP (multiple values possible), offset Spellcraft DC by burning blood of magic (multiple values possible)

It adds up to a lot of options...

I'm going to try to figure out a way to combine two seeds in one spell, but that will be trickier.

Also, seeds won't be "learned", they'll just be available when researching.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 3:17 pm

SEED DESCRIPTIONS

Each seed description hereafter follows the same format used for 0- to
9th-level spells. An additional line, Spellcraft DC, indicates
the base DC of the Spellcraft check required to cast an epic spell
with this seed.

**********************SEED:AFFLICT
Spoiler:

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: 20 minutes
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Afflicts the target with a –2 morale penalty on attack rolls, checks, and
saving throws. For each additional –1 penalty assessed on either
the target’s attack rolls, checks, or saving throws, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2. A character may also develop a spell with this
seed that afflicts the target with a –1 penalty on caster level
checks, a –1 penalty to an ability score, a –1 penalty to spell
resistance, or a –1 penalty to some other aspect of the target. For
each additional –1 penalty assessed in one of the above categories,
increase the Spell-craft DC by +4. This seed can afflict a
character’s ability scores to the point where they reach 0, except
for Constitution where 1 is the minimum. If a factor is applied to
increase the duration of this seed, ability score penalties instead
become temporary ability damage. If a factor is applied to make the
duration permanent, any ability score penalties become permanent
ability drain. Finally, by increasing the Spellcraft DC by +2, one of
the target’s senses can be afflicted: sight, smell, hearing, taste,
touch, or a special sense the target possesses. If the target fails
its saving throw, the sense selected doesn’t function for the
spell’s duration, with all attendant penalties that apply for
losing the specified sense.

**********************SEED:ANIMATE
Spoiler:

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 25
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Target: Object or 20 cu. ft. of matter
Duration: 20 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed can imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of
life (not actual life). The animated object attacks whomever or
whatever the caster initially designates. The animated object can be
of any nonmagical material. The caster can also animate part of a
larger mass of raw matter, such as a volume of water in the ocean,
part of a stony wall, or the earth itself, as long as the volume of
material does not exceed 20 cubic feet. For each additional 10 cubic
feet of matter animated, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1, up to
1,000 cubic feet. For each additional 100 cubic feet of matter
animated after the first 1,000 cubic feet, increase the spellcraft DC
by +1. For each additional Hit Die granted to an animated object of a
given size, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. To animate attended
objects (objects carried or worn by another creature), increase the
Spellcraft DC by +10.

**********************SEED:ANIMATE DEAD
Spoiler:

Necromancy [Evil]
Spellcraft DC: 23
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster can turn the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead
that follow his or her spoken commands. The undead can follow the
caster, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or a
specific type of creature) entering the place. The undead remain
animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed undead can’t be
animated again.) Intelligent undead can follow more sophisticated
commands. The animate dead seed allows a character to create
20 HD of undead. For each additional 1 HD of undead created, increase
the Spellcraft DC by +1. The undead created remain under the caster’s
control indefinitely. A caster can naturally control 1 HD per caster
level of undead creatures he or she has personally created,
regardless of the method used. If the caster exceeds this number,
newly created creatures fall under his or her control, and excess
undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the caster chooses
which creatures are released). If the caster is a cleric, any undead
he or she commands through his or her ability to command or rebuke
undead do not count toward the limit. For each additional 2 HD of
undead to be controlled, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1. Only
undead in excess of 20 HD created with this seed can be controlled
using this DC adjustment. To both create and control more than 20 HD
of undead, increase the Spellcraft DC by +3 per additional 2 HD of
undead.

Type of Undead: All types of undead can be created with the animate
dead seed, although creating more powerful undead increases the
Spellcraft DC of the epic spell, according to the table below. The GM
must set the Spellcraft DC for undead not included on the table,
using similar undead as a basis for comparison.


Undead Spellcraft DC Modifier

Skeleton –12
Wraith –2
Zombie –12
Mummy +0
Ghoul –10
Spectre +2
Shadow –8
Morhg +4
Ghast –6
Vampire +6
Wight –4
Ghost +8

**********************SEED: ARMOR
Spoiler:

Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 24 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This seed grants a creature additional armor, providing a +4 bonus to
Armor Class. The bonus is either an armor bonus or a natural armor
bonus, whichever the caster selects. Unlike mundane armor, the armor
seed provides an intangible protection that entails no armor
check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction.
Incorporeal creatures can’t bypass the armor seed the way
they can ignore normal armor. For each additional point of Armor
Class bonus, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. The caster can also
grant a creature a +1 bonus to Armor Class using a different bonus
type, such as deflection, divine, or insight. For each additional
point of bonus to Armor Class of one of these types, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +10.

**********************SEED: BANISH
Spoiler:

Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 27
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than
30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed forces extraplanar creatures out of the caster’s home plane.
The caster can banish up to 14 HD of extraplanar creatures. For each
additional 2 HD of extraplanar creatures banished, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +1. To specify a type or sub-type of creature other
than outsider to be banished, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20.

**********************SEED: COMPEL
Spoiler:

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 19
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: 20 hours or until completed
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed compels a target to follow a course of activity. At the basic
level of effect, a spell using the compel seed must be worded
in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the
creature to do an obviously harmful act automatically negates the
effect (unless the Spellcraft DC has been increased to avoid this
limitation; see below). To compel a creature to follow an outright
unreasonable course of action, increase the Spellcraft DC by +10. The
compelled course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If
the compelled activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell
ends when the subject finishes what he or she was asked to do. The
caster can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special
activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the
spell using this seed expires, the activity is not performed.

**********************SEED: CONCEAL
Spoiler:

Illusion (Glamer)
Spellcraft DC: 17
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object of up to 2,000 lb.
Duration: 200 minutes or until expended (D)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless, object)

This seed can conceal a creature or object touched from sight, even from
darkvision. If the subject is a creature carrying gear, the gear
vanishes too, rendering the creature invisible. A spell using the
conceal seed ends if the subject attacks any creature. Actions
directed at unattended objects do not break the spell, and causing
harm indirectly is not an attack. To create invisibility that lasts
regardless of the actions of the subject, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +4. Alternatively, this seed can conceal the exact location of the
subject so that it appears to be about 2 feet away from its true
location; this increases the Spellcraft DC by +2. The subject
benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment.
However, unlike actual total concealment, this displacement effect
does not prevent enemies from targeting him or her normally. The
conceal seed can also be used to block divination spells,
spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using the reveal
seed; this increases the Spellcraft DC by +6. In all cases where
divination magic of any level, including epic level, is employed
against the subject of a spell using the conceal seed for this
purpose, an opposed caster level check determines which spell works.

**********************SEED: CONJURE
Spoiler:

Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 21
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving matter up to 20 cu. ft.
Duration: 8 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed creates a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving matter of
up to 20 cubic feet in volume. The caster must succeed at an
appropriate skill check to make a complex item. The seed can create
matter ranging in hardness and rarity from vegetable matter all the
way up to mithral and even adamantine. Simple objects have a natural
duration of 24 hours. For each additional cubic foot of matter
created, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. Attempting to use any
created object as a material component or a resource during epic
spell development causes the spell to fail and the object to
disappear.

The conjure seed can be used in conjunction with the life and
fortify seeds for an epic spell that creates an entirely new
creature, if made permanent. To give a creature spell-like abilities,
apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired
ability. To give the creature a supernatural or extraordinary ability
rather than a spell-like ability, double the cost of the relevant
seed. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth. To
give a creature Hit Dice, use the fortify seed. Each 5 hit
points granted to the creature gives it an additional 1 HD. Once
successfully created, the new creature will breed true.

**********************SEED: CONTACT
Spoiler:

Divination
Spellcraft DC: 23
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: See text
Target: One creature
Duration: 200 minutes
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed forges a telepathic bond with a particular creature with which
the caster is familiar (or one that the caster can currently see
directly or through magical means) and can converse back and forth.
The subject recognizes the caster if it knows him or her. It can
answer in like manner immediately, though it does not have to. The
caster can forge a communal bond among more than two creatures. For
each additional creature contacted, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1.
The bond can be established only among willing subjects, which
therefore receive no saving throw or spell resistance. For telepathic
communication through the bond regardless of language, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +4. No special influence is established as a result
of the bond, only the power to communicate at a distance.

At the base Spellcraft DC of 20, a caster can also use the contact
seed to imbue an object (or creature) with a message he or she
prepares that appears as written text for the spell’s duration or
is spoken aloud in a language the caster knows. The spoken message
can be of any length, but the length of written text is limited to
what can be contained (as text of a readable size) on the surface of
the target. The message is delivered when specific conditions are
fulfilled according to the caster’s desire when the spell is cast.

**********************SEED: DELUDE
Spoiler:

Illusion (Figment)
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 12,000 ft.
Effect: Visual figment that can extend for up to twenty 30-ft. cubes (S)
Duration: Concentration plus 20 hours
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

A spell developed with the delude seed creates the visual
illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by the
caster. The caster can move the image within the limits of the size
of the effect by concentrating (the image is otherwise stationary).
The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless the caster
causes the illusion to react appropriately. For an illusion that
includes audible, olfactory, tactile, taste, and thermal aspects,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per extra aspect. Even realistic
tactile and thermal illusions can’t deal damage, however. For each
additional image to be created, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1. For
an illusion that follows a script determined by the caster, increase
the Spellcraft DC by +9. The figment follows the script without the
caster having to concentrate on it. The illusion can include
intelligible speech if desired. For an illusion that makes any area
appear to be something other than it is, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +4. Additional components, such as sounds, can be added as noted
above. Concealing creatures requires additional spell development
using this or other seeds.

**********************SEED: DESTROY
Spoiler:

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 29
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 12,000 ft.
Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed deals 20d6 points of damage to the target. The damage is of no
particular type or energy. For each additional 1d6 points of damage
dealt, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. If the target is reduced to
–10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is
reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if
disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. Up to a
10-foot cube of nonliving matter is affected, so a spell using the
destroy seed destroys only part of any very large object or
structure targeted. The destroy seed affects even magical
matter, energy fields, and force effects that are normally only
affected by the disintegrate spell. Such effects are
automatically destroyed. Epic spells using the ward seed may
also be destroyed, though the caster must succeed at an opposed
caster level check against the other spellcaster to bring down a ward
spell.

**********************SEED: DISPEL
Spoiler:

Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 19
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One creature, object, or spell
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed can end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or
object, temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item,
or end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area. A
dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. The dispel
seed can defeat all spells, even those not normally subject to
dispel magic. The dispel seed can dispel (but not
counter) the ongoing effects of supernatural abilities as well as
spells, and it affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells.
One creature, object, or spell is the target of the dispel seed.
The caster makes a dispel check against the spell or against each
ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. A dispel
check is 1d20 + 10 against a DC of 11 + the target spell’s caster
level. For each additional +1 on the dispel check, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +1. If targeting an object or creature that is the
effect of an ongoing spell, make a dispel check to end the spell that
affects the object or creature. If the object targeted is a magic
item, make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If
succeessful, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for
1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed
item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An
interdimensional interface is temporarily closed. A magic item’s
physical properties are unchanged. Any creature, object, or spell is
potentially subject to the dispel seed, even the spells of
gods and the abilities of artifacts. A character automatically
succeeds on the dispel check against any spell that he or she cast
him or her self.

**********************SEED: ENERGY
Spoiler:

Evocation [Acid, Fire, Electricity, Cold, or Sonic]
Spellcraft DC: 19
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft. or touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less
Area: A bolt 5 ft. wide to 300 ft. long; or a 10-ft.-radius emanation; or a
wall whose area is up to one 200-ft. square; or a sphere or
hemi-sphere with a radius of up to 20 ft.
Duration: Instantaneous or 20 hours (see text)
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed uses whichever one of five energy types the caster chooses:
acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The caster can cast the
energy forth as a bolt, imbue an object with the energy, or create a
freestanding manifestation of the energy. If the spell developed
using the energy seed releases a bolt, that bolt
instantaneously deals 10d6 points of damage of the appropriate energy
type, and all in the bolt’s area must make a Reflex save for half
damage. For each additional 1d6 points of damage dealt, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2. The bolt begins at the caster’s fingertips. To
imbue another creature with the ability to use an energy bolt as a
spell-like ability at its option or when a particular condition is
met, increase the Spellcraft DC by +25. The caster can also cause a
creature or object to emanate the specific energy type out to a
radius of 10 feet for 20 hours. The emanated energy deals 2d6 points
of energy damage per round against unprotected creatures (the target
creature is susceptible if not separately warded or otherwise
resistant to the energy). For each additional 1d6 points of damage
emanated, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. The caster may also
create a wall, half-circle, circle, dome, or sphere of the desired
energy that emanates the energy for up to 20 hours. One side of the
wall, selected by the caster, sends forth waves of energy, dealing
2d4 points of energy damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4
points of energy damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The
wall deals this damage when it appears and in each round that a
creature enters or remains in the area. In addition, the wall deals
2d6+20 points of energy damage to any creature passing through it.
The wall deals double damage to undead creatures. For each additional
1d4 points of damage, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

The caster can also use the energy seed to create a spell that
carefully releases and balances the emanation of cold, electricity,
and fire, creating specific weather effects for a period of 20 hours.
Using the energy seed this way has a base Spellcraft DC of 25.
The area extends to a two-mile-radius centered on the caster. Once
the spell is cast, the weather takes 10 minutes to manifest.
Ordinarily, a caster can’t directly target a creature or object,
though indirect effects are possible. This seed can create cold
snaps, heat waves, thunderstorms, fogs, blizzards—even a tornado
that moves randomly in the affected area. Creating targeted damaging
effects requires an additional use of the energy seed.

**********************SEED: FORESEE
Spoiler:

Divination
Spellcraft DC: 17
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (see text)

The caster can foretell the immediate future, or gain information about
specific questions. He or she is 90% likely to receive a meaningful
reading of the future of the next 30 minutes. If successful, the
caster knows if a particular action will bring good results, bad
results, or no result. For each additional 30 minutes into the
future, multiply the Spellcraft DC by x2. For better results, the
caster can pose up to ten specific questions (one per round while he
or she concentrates) to unknown powers of other planes, but the base
Spellcraft DC for such an attempt is 23. The answers return in a
language the caster understands, but use only one-word replies:
“yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or
some other one-word answer. Unlike 0- to 9th-level spells of similar
type, all questions answered are 90% likely to be answered
truthfully. However, a specific spell using the foresee seed
can only be cast once every five weeks. The foresee seed is
also useful for epic spells requiring specific information before
functioning, such as spells using the reveal and transport
seeds. The foresee seed can also be used to gain one basic
piece of information about a living target: level, class, alignment,
or some special ability (or one of an object’s magical abilities,
if any). For each additional piece of information revealed, increase
the Spellcraft DC by +2.

**********************SEED: FORTIFY
Spoiler:

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 17 (see text)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 20 hours; permanent for age adjustment
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Spells using the fortify seed grant a +1 enhancement bonus to
whichever one of the following the caster chooses:

-Any one ability score.
-Any one kind of saving throw.
-Spell resistance.
-Natural armor.

The fortify seed can also grant energy resistance 1 for one energy
type or 1 temporary hit point. For each additional +1 bonus, point of
energy resistance, or hit point, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

The fortify seed has a base Spellcraft DC of 23 if it grants a +1
bonus of a type other than enhancement. For each additional +1 bonus
of a type other than enhancement, increase the Spellcraft DC by +6.
If the caster applies a factor to make the duration permanent, the
bonus must be an inherent bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus
allowed is +5.

The fortify seed has a base Spellcraft DC of 27 if it grants a
creature a +1 bonus to an ability score or other statistic it does
not possess. For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +4. If a spell with the fortify seed grants an inanimate
object an ability score it would not normally possess (such as
Intelligence), the spell must also incorporate the life seed.

Granting spell resistance to a creature that doesn’t already have it is a
special case; the base Spellcraft DC of 27 grants spell resistance
25, and each additional point of spell resistance increases the
Spellcraft DC by +4 (each –1 to spell resistance reduces the
Spellcraft DC by –2).

The fortify seed can also grant damage reduction 1/magic. For each
additional point of damage reduction, increase the Spellcraft DC by
+2. To increase the damage reduction value to epic, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +15.

A special use of the fortify seed grants the target a permanent
+1 year to its current age category. For each additional +1 year
added to the creature’s current age category, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2. Incremental adjustments to a creature’s
maximum age do not stack; they overlap. When a spell increases a
creature’s current age category, all higher age categories are also
adjusted accordingly.

**********************SEED: HEAL
Spoiler:

Conjuration (Healing)
Spellcraft DC: 25
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Yes (harmless; see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Spells developed with the heal seed channel positive energy into a
creature to wipe away disease and injury. Such a spell completely
cures all diseases, blindness, deafness, hit point damage, and
temporary ability damage. To restore permanently drained ability
score points, increase the Spellcraft DC by +6. The heal seed
neutralizes poisons in the subject’s system so that no additional
damage or effects are suffered. It offsets feeblemindedness and cures
mental disorders caused by spells or injury to the brain. It dispels
all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including
effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict
seed. Only a single application of the spell is needed to
simultaneously achieve all these effects. This seed does not restore
levels or Constitution points lost due to death. To dispel all
negative levels afflicting the target, increase the Spellcraft DC by
+2. This reverses level drains by a force or creature. The drained
levels are restored only if the creature lost the levels within the
last 20 weeks. For each additional week since the levels were
drained, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

Against undead, the influx of positive energy causes the loss of all but 1d4
hit points if the undead fails a Fortitude saving throw.

An epic caster with 24 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature),
or Knowledge (religion) can cast a spell developed with a special
version of the heal seed that flushes negative energy into the
subject, healing undead completely but causing the loss of all but
1d4 hit points in living creatures if they fail a Fortitude saving
throw. Alternatively, a living target that fails its Fortitude saving
throw could gain four negative levels for the next 8 hours. For each
additional negative level bestowed, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4,
and for each extra hour the negative levels persist, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2. If the subject has at least as many negative
levels as Hit Dice, it dies. If the subject survives and the negative
levels persist for 24 hours or longer, the subject must make another
Fortitude saving throw, or the negative levels are converted to
actual level loss.

**********************SEED: LIFE
Spoiler:

Conjuration (Healing)
Spellcraft DC: 27
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

A spell developed with the life seed will restore life and
complete vigor to any deceased creature. The condition of the remains
is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s
body still exists, it can be returned to life, but the portion
receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at
the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate
spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can
have been dead for no longer than two hundred years. For each
additional ten years, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1. The creature
is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with
no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level (or
1 point of Constitution if the subject was 1st level). The life seed
cannot revive someone who has died of old age.

An epic caster with 24 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature),
or Knowledge (religion) can cast a spell developed with a special
version of the life seed that gives actual life to normally inanimate
objects. The caster can give inanimate plants and animals a soul,
personality, and humanlike sentience. To succeed, the caster must
make a Will save (DC 10 + the target’s Hit Dice, or the Hit Dice a
plant will have once it comes to life).

The newly living object, intelligent animal, or sentient plant is
friendly toward the caster. An object or plant has characteristics as
if it were an animated object, except that its Intelligence, Wisdom,
and Charisma scores are all 3d6. Animated objects and plants gain the
ability to move their limbs, projections, roots, carved legs and
arms, or other appendages, and have senses similar to a human’s. A
newly intelligent animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2
HD. Objects, animals, and plants speak one language that the caster
knows, plus one additional language that he or she knows per point of
Intelligence bonus (if any).

**********************SEED: REFLECT
Spoiler:

Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 27
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 12 hours
Attacks targeted against the caster rebound on the original attacker. Each
use of the reflect seed in an epic spell is effective against
one type of attack only: spells (and spell-like effects), ranged
attacks, or melee attacks.

To reflect an area spell, where the caster is not the target but are
caught in the vicinity, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20. A single
successful use of reflect expends its protection.

Spells developed with the reflect seed against spells and spell-like
effects return all spell effects of up to 1st level. For each additional
level of spells to be reflected, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20. Epic
spells are treated as 10th-level spells for this purpose.

The desired effect is automatically reflected if the spell in question is
9th level or lower. An opposed caster level check is required when
the reflect seed is used against another epic spell. If the enemy
spellcaster gets his or her spell through by winning the caster level
check, the epic spell using the reflect seed is not expended, just
momentarily suppressed.

If the reflect seed is used against a melee attack or ranged
attack, five such attacks are automatically reflected back on the
original attacker. For each additional attack reflected, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +4. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker
using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected,
the spell using the reflect seed is expended.

**********************SEED: REVEAL
Spoiler:

Divination
Spellcraft DC: 19 (see text)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: See text
Effect: Magical sensor
Duration: 20 minutes (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster of this seed can see some distant location or hear the sounds
at some distant location almost as if he or she was there. To both
hear and see, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. Distance is not a
factor, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to the caster
or an obvious one. The spell creates an invisible sensor that can be
dispelled. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks the spell, and
the caster senses that the spell is so blocked. If the caster prefers
to create a mobile sensor (speed 30 feet) that he or she controls,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. To use the reveal seed to
reach one specific different plane of existence, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +8. To allow magically enhanced senses to work
through a spell built with the reveal seed, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +4. To cast any spell from the sensor whose range is
touch or greater, increase the Spellcraft DC by +6; however, the
caster must maintain line of effect to the sensor at all times. If
the line of effect is obstructed, the spell ends. To free the caster
of the line of effect restriction for casting spells through the
sensor, multiply the Spellcraft DC by x10.

The reveal seed has a base Spellcraft DC of 25 if used to pierce
illusions and see things as they really are. The caster can see
through normal and magical darkness, notice secret doors hidden by
magic, see the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur
or displacement effects, see invisible creatures or
objects normally, see through illusions, see onto the Ethereal Plane
(but not into extradimensional spaces), and see the true form of
polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. The range of such sight
is 120 feet.

The reveal seed can also be used to develop spells that will do
any one of the following: duplicate the read magic spell,
comprehend the written and verbal language of another, or speak in
the written or verbal language of another. To both comprehend and
speak a language, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4.

**********************SEED: SLAY
Spoiler:

Necromancy [Death]
Spellcraft DC: 25
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial or half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A spell developed using the slay seed snuffs out the life force
of a living creature, killing it instantly. The slay seed
kills a creature of up to 80 HD. The subject is entitled to a
Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save is
successful, it instead takes 3d6+20 points of damage. For each
additional 80 HD affected (or each additional creature affected),
increase the Spellcraft DC by +8. Alternatively, a caster can use the
slay seed in an epic spell to suppress the life force of the
target by bestowing 2d4 negative levels on the target (or half as
many negative levels on a successful Fortitude save). For each
additional 1d4 negative levels bestowed, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +4. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit
Dice, it dies. If the subject survives and the negative levels
persist for 24 hours or longer, the subject must make another
Fortitude saving throw, or the negative levels are converted to
actual level loss.

**********************SEED: SUMMON
Spoiler:

Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 75 ft.
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 20 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

This seed can summon an outsider. It appears where the caster designates
and acts immediately, on his or her turn, if its spell resistance is
overcome and it fails a Will saving throw. It attacks the caster’s
opponents to the best of its ability. If the caster can communicate
with the outsider, he or she can direct it not to attack, to attack
particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures
an outsider the caster selects of CR 2 or less. For each +1 CR of the
summoned outsider, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. For each
additional outsider of the same Challenge Rating summoned, multiply
the Spellcraft DC by x2. When a caster develops a spell with the
summon seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire,
good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that
type.

If the caster increases the Spellcraft DC by +10, he or she can summon a
creature of CR 2 or less from another monster type or subtype. The
summoned creature is assumed to have been plucked from some other
plane (or somewhere on the same plane). The summoned creature attacks
the caster’s opponents to the best of its ability; or, if the
caster can communicate with it, it will perform other actions.
However, the summoning ends if the creature is asked to perform a
task inimical to its nature. For each +1 CR of the summoned creature,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

Finally, by increasing the Spellcraft DC by +60, the caster can summon a
unique individual he or she specifies from anywhere in the
multiverse. The caster must know the target’s name and some facts
about its life, defeat any magical protection against discovery or
other protection possessed by the target, and overcome the target’s
spell resistance, and it must fail a Will saving throw. The target is
under no special compulsion to serve the caster.

**********************SEED: TRANSFORM
Spoiler:

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 21
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One creature or inanimate, nonmagical object
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Spells using the transform seed change the subject into another form
of creature or object. The new form can range in size from Diminutive
to one size larger than the subject’s normal form. For each
additional increment of size change, increase the Spellcraft DC by
+6. If the caster wants to transform a nonmagical, inanimate object
into a creature of his or her type or transform a creature into a
nonmagical, inanimate object, increase the Spellcraft DC by +10. To
change a creature of one type into another type increase the
Spellcraft DC by +5.

Transformations involving nonmagical, inanimate substances with hardness are more
difficult; for each 2 points of hardness, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +1.

To transform a creature into an incorporeal or gaseous form, increase
the Spellcraft DC by +10. Conversely, to overcome the natural
immunity of a gaseous or incorporeal creature to transformation,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +10.

The transform seed can also change its target into someone
specific. To transform an object or creature into the specific
likeness of another individual (including memories and mental
abilities), increase the Spellcraft DC by +25. If the transformed
creature doesn’t have the level or Hit Dice of its new likeness, it
can only use the abilities of the creature at its own level or Hit
Dice. If slain or destroyed, the transformed creature or object
reverts to its original form. The subject’s equipment, if any,
remains untransformed or melds into the new form’s body, at the
caster’s option. The transformed creature or object acquires the
physical and natural abilities of the creature or object it has been
changed into while retaining its own memories and mental ability
scores. Mental abilities include personality, Intelligence, Wisdom,
and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change
in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, base saves,
extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not
its supernatural abilities. Physical abilities include natural size
and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities
include armor, natural weapons, and similar gross physical qualities
(presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth),
and possibly hardness. Creatures transformed into inanimate objects
do not gain the benefit of their untransformed physical abilities,
and may well be blind, deaf, dumb, and unfeeling. Objects transformed
into creatures gain that creature’s average physical ability
scores, but are considered to have mental ability scores of 0 (the
fortify seed can add points to each mental ability, if
desired). For each normal extraordinary ability or supernatural
ability granted to the transformed creature, increase the Spellcraft
DC by +10. The transformed subject can have no more Hit Dice than the
caster has or than the subject has (whichever is greater). In any
case, for each Hit Die the assumed form has above 15, increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2.

**********************SEED: TRANSPORT
Spoiler:

Conjuration [Teleportation]
Spellcraft DC: 27
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing
up to 1,000 lb.
Duration: Instantaneous, or 5 rounds for temporal transport
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (see text)

Spells using the transport seed instantly take the caster to a
designated destination, regardless of distance. For interplanar
travel, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. For each additional 50
pounds in objects and willing creatures beyond the base 1,000 pounds,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. The base use of the transport
seed provides instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. To
shift the transportation medium to another medium increase the
Spellcraft DC by +2. The caster does not need to make a saving throw,
nor is spell resistance applicable to him or her. Only objects worn
or carried (attended) by another person receive saving throws and
spell resistance. For a spell intended to transport unwilling
creatures, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. The caster must have at
least a reliable description of the place to which he or she is
transporting. If the caster attempts to use the transport seed
with insufficient or misleading information, the character disappears
and simply reappear in his or her original location.

As a special use of the transport seed, a caster can develop a
spell that temporarily transports him or her into a different time
stream (leaving the caster in the same physical location); this
increases the Spellcraft DC by +8. If the caster moves him or
herself, or the subject, into a slower time stream for 5 rounds, time
ceases to flow for the subject, and its condition becomes fixed—no
force or effect can harm it until the duration expires. If the caster
moves him or her self into a faster time stream, the caster speeds up
so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are
actually still moving at their normal speeds. The caster is free to
act for 5 rounds of apparent time. Fire, cold, poison gas, and
similar effects can still harm the caster. While the caster is in the
fast time stream, other creatures are invulnerable to his or her
attacks and spells; however, the caster can create spell effects and
leave them to take effect when he or she reenters normal time.
Because of the branching nature of time, epic spells used to
transport a subject into a faster time stream cannot be made
permanent, nor can the duration of 5 rounds be extended. More simply,
the seed can haste or slow a subject for 20 rounds by
transporting it to the appropriate time stream. This decreases the
Spellcraft DC by –4.

**********************SEED: WARD
Spoiler:

Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target or Effect: Touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less; or
10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed can grant a creature protection from damage of a specified type.
The caster can protect a creature from standard damage or from energy
damage. The caster can protect a creature or area from magic.
Alternatively, he or she can hedge out a type of creature from a
specified area. A ward against standard damage protects a creature
from whichever two the caster selects of the three damage types:
bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. For a ward against all three
types, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. Each round, the spell
created with the ward seed absorbs the first 5 points of
damage the creature would otherwise take, regardless of whether the
source of the damage is natural or magical. For each additional point
of protection, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

A ward against energy grants a creature protection from whichever one
the caster selects of the five energy types: acid, cold, electricity,
fire, or sonic. Each round, the spell absorbs the first 5 points of
damage the creature would otherwise take from the specified energy
type, regardless of whether the source of damage is natural or
magical. The spell protects the recipient’s equipment as well. For
each additional point of protection, increase the Spellcraft DC by
+1.

A ward against a specific type of creature prevents bodily contact from
whichever one of several monster types the caster selects. This
causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the
creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded
creature. The protection ends if the warded creature makes an attack
against or intentionally moves within 5 feet of the blocked creature.
Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and
touch the warded creature.

A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical
sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes
all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can
ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each
additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC
by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does
not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any
target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells
or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell
can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and
return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell
specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius
effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic
spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a
ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The
ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the
destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster
level check.

Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify
all spells of a given level and lower, the caster can create a ward
that nullifies a specific spell (or specific set of spells). For each
specific spell so nullified, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per
spell level above 1st.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 3:42 pm

On the rod aspect, if you could have 8 "activate unique power" abilities on the rod (which I assume is the ability that the epic 'spell scroll' would use) then you could use VC commands to assign known epic spells to each of the 8 activateable powers of the rod. Quickslot rod, and you can switch between those 8 epic spells.

The variables for 'known' epic spells could be saved in the Character's 'Database' item (the little tiny book icon). That way they could be manipulated and assigned to rod slots with VC commands prior to combat.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun May 23, 2010 3:51 pm

The ones I'm looking at using:

Afflict
Animate Dead
Armor
Compel
Conceal
Destroy
Energy
Fortify
Heal
Life
Reveal
Slay
Summon
Transform
Transport
Ward

The unused seeds don't really have much adaptability to NWN (such as Animate to make animated objects, Banish for doing what the banishment spell is for, Contact for contacting other-planar creatures (more of a RP device), Conjure for making inanimate objects, Delude is for illusions, which don't translate well to NWN, Dispel because there's already disjuction for 9th level and lower spells, Forsee is more of a "live DM needed effect, Reflect would be a pain to code for).

I figure I'd make multiple options available from each seed (such as different damage levels from destroy), then have the modifiers work off the seeds for expanding on ranges, areas, save DCs, etc.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Sun May 23, 2010 3:57 pm

Okay.. maybe now would be the time I realise I know absolutely nothing about Epic spellcasting and how it should be, but the above all sounds good ... ... ...
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 4:01 pm

I wouldnt mind seeing less flexible forms of Banish, Conjure, and Dispel.

The thing about these seeds is that they could be used to allow epic magic to do things like...

For dispel, the caster could hit a target with beholder-like antimagic, automatically removing all magical effects, and giving them spell failure for a short time (maybe 1 round).

For Banish, with a high enough spellcraft DC, an epic version of the banishment spell could simply not allow any save or SR at all. Cast the spell and all summons automatically go poof immediately.

For Conjure, there could be a few more options than just an epic mummy and an epic red dragon. Beefier minions means higher spellcraft DC. Imagine summoning a prismatic dragon hehe :-D ... or even a Darkfire Reaver!
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun May 23, 2010 4:16 pm

Summon is the one used for bringing forth minions. And yes, I plan on adding options for more varied minions.

Good points on Banish and Dispel.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 4:40 pm

Oh blargh.... flipping back and forth between forums and A+ books and ExpertTek website is frying my brain....

For conjure, it could have options to conjure specific useful items from the palette for 'free'. Like... hey.... I need a catapult or a ballista right now! Or, a portable encampment, explosives (stacks of acid or fire bombs or even alchemist dragon eggs), preassembled epic traps, or maybe even certain placeable objects (altars, chests/barrels-maybe even with random goddies in them, sun shelters, and visual effects).
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 6:04 pm

For the actual use of epic spells, I would really not want a scroll system with items in inventory. Perhaps a comprimise though? A duel-system of epic spells being activated via VC commands and via the items?

I really am focused on that because when the cleric granted spells were by widgets, I honestly did not use them, and they were a pain taking up inventory space. Activating the epic spells via the vc command + epic magic feat is just much more attractive to me, although I can see why it woudln't be to a player like Dave who has an aversion to typing as I do to activating inventory items.

The rod method wouldn't work most likely, if the module uses tag based scripts, all 8 unique powers on the rod would all fire off the same script (that with the same tag as the rod itself).

For the seeds used, yeah, I like Dave's thinking in that for say, conjure, there's multiple non-damage dealing combat effects possible. To put it simply, being able to conjure cloud cover would be an epic vampire mage's favorite must-have spell. Conjuring an altar... totally something I could see a cleric doing.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sun May 23, 2010 6:51 pm

I'm making my suggestions for the various options on what each seed could do. I'm not giving options for certain seeds, such as Compel and Transform, as I'm not sure as how those should be implemented. Note that some of these are my personal interpretation of how to implement each seed to NWN

Dispel - The mage's worst nightmare....

Spoiler:
Single or multiple targets

Will it apply temporary spell failure (duration and amount as variable options)

What sort of dispel check will there be? (If any)

Will it lower spell resistance of the target(s)

Will the checks be made more than once?(adding less cost than comparably removing the dispel check completely)

Will it remove epic spells?

Or, on a completely epic scale - the creation of anti-magic field that prevents any and all non-epic magic from functioning, whether cast or simply walked in, for X rounds.


Ward - You don't get a much more defensive property, now do you? There are countless options that I could suggest for this one..

Spoiler:

What damage type(s) are being warded. Also, how much at once?

How much damage will be absorbed before the spell ends?

In what way will the damage be aborbed? (Resistance, reduction, immunity?)

Will the warded creature(s) be granted any immunities? (Knockdown, Disarm, etc,)

How long will the effect last?

How many targets will if affect?

Will there be kickback for creatures that strike the warded creature(s)? (how much?)


Heal/Life - Relatively straightforward, until you put a few more things that might be neat to see with an epic-spell heal...

Spoiler:

Will it apply temporary HPs? (How many, for how long)

Will it temporarily reduced damage? (how much, for how long?)

will it apply regeneration?(How much, for how long?)

Will it ressurrect? (could be tricky to implement)

How many people will it affect?


Conceal/Reveal - Useful for almost anyone, but needs to be practical too...

Spoiler:

How many targets will it affect?

Will this grant stealth detection? (As per True Seeing, reduce target's hide/MS skills, increase Spot/Listen? Only applies to reveal)

Will the target(s) lose/gain concealment? (How much, for how long?)

Will the target gain/lose Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary? (For how long?)

Or, on a completely epic scale... will the caster create a field (immobile or centered on the caster) that removes/grants concealment and other effects?



Slay - Has so much potential for improving death spells....

Spoiler:

How many targets will it affect?

What immunities will it respect? (Death immunity, fear immunity, poison immunity, etc.)

What will the DC be?

Will there be a negative effect even in the target(s) are immune/make the save? (What kinds)

Will the check be made more than once?



Armor - AC.... the basis of almost any characters defenses.... and oh so many ways once could enhance it....

Spoiler:

How many targets will it affect?

For how long?

How much AC, and what types, will be granted?

How will it be applied? (As an item property, similar to Darkfire, or as a spell effect?)



Fortify/Afflict - It's got some interesting potential, but how useful it is depends on what is being fortified...

Spoiler:

How many targets will be affected?

What will be changed? (Stats, Saving Throws, AB, Haste/Slow, SR, Skill checks, Damage)

What will the DC be? (Afflict only)

Will it be subject to curing/dispelling?

How long will the effects last?


Animate Dead - A standard summoning spell, that could have a few interesting side-effects with it...

Spoiler:

How many dead will be animated?

For how long?

Will the spell animaterecently killed creatures?

Will the spell animate dead players? (at full health and with completely ready abilities, but highly temporary)

What kind of dead will the spell canimate? (Corporeal/Incorporeal, Spellcaster/Melee, Tankish or Damage dealing)

Will the spell affect nearby creatures when it begins/ends? (Will the animated dead explode upon the ending of the spell's duration, dealing damage to surrounding enemies? Will the animation process instill fear in enemies upon casting?)


Destroy - Your one-stop death spell for those pesky, non-living targets...

Spoiler:

How many targets will be affected?

Will the spell extend to destroy living AND non-living targets?

Will the spell destroy a targeted placable? (Door, barricade, tree etc.)

What will the DC be?

What immunities will the spell bypass? (Death, Mind, Fear, etc.)

Will the be negative effects for targets that make the save/are immune?


Energy - The most basic of basic spell types, just send tons of damage at your enemies and they're sure to fall....right?

Spoiler:

How many targets will it affect?

What type(s) of damage will be dealt?

How much damage of each type?

Will the damage occur multiple times?

Will other effect be applied with the damage? (Knockdown, Negative AC.. etc.)

Will the damaging effect be applied as an 'aura' that damages enemies that enter a given field? (Mobile or immobile?)
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 8:52 pm

For the rod idea, if need be, The Amethyst Dragon could add 8 new properties to the item property list. These 8 'activate unique power' properties would each call the variables stored in a different epic spell 'slot'. While a caster could know more than 8 epic spells, they wouldnt be able to go beyond casing 8 epic spells in a day, so on that front, the rod idea would cover the bases, as you could slot the 8 spells you are likely to use that day.

If circumstances conspire to where you find yourself needing a different epic spell, you can always use the vc command to swap a different one into a slot of your choice. The idea is that such a situation would be the exception rather than the rule Smile

Using manny's idea, the 'activate unique power' abilities on the rod could all be listed as infinite use, but when you have used up your epic castings for the day, while you could attempt to cast another, it would simply return an 'out of juice' message.

Oh and for Conjure, yes yes yes yes.... Manny's idea for conjuring cloud cover to change the weather and stop sun damage is *awesome*.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 9:00 pm

Ressurection epic spells shouldn't be a problem... contingent ressurection's one of the 'premade' spells listed in the epic handbook, and I do quite like the idea of my asis cleric researching that one, or even a AoE'd one for party fun.

We already have mechanics in the game that do much of that (GoZ's, contingency, ect), so an epic spell working along those lines would great too.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun May 23, 2010 9:04 pm

daveyeisley wrote:For the rod idea, if need be, The Amethyst Dragon could add 8 new properties to the item property list. These 8 'activate unique power' properties would each call the variables stored in a different epic spell 'slot'. While a caster could know more than 8 epic spells, they wouldnt be able to go beyond casing 8 epic spells in a day, so on that front, the rod idea would cover the bases, as you could slot the 8 spells you are likely to use that day.

If circumstances conspire to where you find yourself needing a different epic spell, you can always use the vc command to swap a different one into a slot of your choice. The idea is that such a situation would be the exception rather than the rule Smile

That's be totally workable.

Doesn't have to be a rod per se either, but a new inventory 1x1 item.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 9:06 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:Ressurection epic spells shouldn't be a problem... contingent ressurection's one of the 'premade' spells listed in the epic handbook, and I do quite like the idea of my asis cleric researching that one, or even a AoE'd one for party fun.

We already have mechanics in the game that do much of that (GoZ's, contingency, ect), so an epic spell working along those lines would great too.

Maybe the contingent whole party ressurect could set a variable on each party member that would allow them to use a special VC command the next time they end up in the great hall that would resurrect them for free?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun May 23, 2010 9:08 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:

That's be totally workable.

Doesn't have to be a rod per se either, but a new inventory 1x1 item.

The rod idea was to ensure that the item would have sub radials because I wasnt totally sure about a 1x1 item being able to support 8 sub abilities.... but in retrospect I think you are right.... and 1x1 would be preferable by far.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Mon May 24, 2010 5:37 am

If it's a new base item being created it could have an unlimited (99) number of "maximum spell slots" .... ... the problem I can forsee is trying to differentiate between which one you want to use, and how they work...

A host of "new" item properties (lets say "Epic Stored Spell Activation I - VIII") could be added to the item (be that a 1x1 inventory item if needed).. and a mix of VC command to assign an epic spell to the item use could be achieved ... then it'll be a case of assigning a spell to the use, and activating as normal..... ... ((at max we're going to have 8 epic spells a day, it wouldn't matter if "slots I - IV" are all filled with "hellball", or if each slot was a different spell.. we'd need a seperate counter for how many spells has been cast today))....

I must say I'm kinda against the idea of having "loads" of epic widgets myself... there must be better (more streamlined) ways of doing things... As MJ stated above, when the clerical abilites were all widgets they seldom got used by me too (and just filled up inventory space, "forgotten about").. now they are feats, I use them all alot more often.... ...

We know from the tp/ally/MotM "slots" that we can store various bits of "dynamic" info in a database-style slot system, the trick would suggest how we can merge a VC system with an item use system....((which I think we already have somewhere, but nothings coming to mind as an example))... ...

I think that what I'm getting from the above is that given time and space Dave (and many others) don't mind having to set things up "before combat", possibly using VC commands.... it's during the hectic throws of combat that typing in VC commands becomes a pain-in-the-a*** and that's when/why we need item based activation (but we'd much prefer a "1 item to rule all castings" item then a multiple item casting system ....

??

Everyone following ?? Did I get all that correct ??
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Mon May 24, 2010 7:32 am

RustyDios wrote:
...((at max we're going to have 8 epic spells a day, it wouldn't matter if "slots I - IV" are all filled with "hellball", or if each slot was a different spell.. we'd need a seperate counter for how many spells has been cast today))....

In this case, the 'separate counter' would likely be an odd number of charges, and the new 'epic spell' property would use up 2 charges (thus at the end of it's uses for the day, it would retain 1 charge, therefore not destroying the item. Upon resting, the charges would restore to their proper amount for the available number of epic spell casts)
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon May 24, 2010 8:34 am

The "separate counter" is easy to do. Just assign 8 uses to the Epic Magic feat, then reduce it to the proper uses/day upon sleeping. Have the epic spell script check for remaining uses before taking effect...if uses remain, decrement remaining feat uses by 1 and cast the spell, if not, nothing happens.

After testing in the toolset, going a "single casting item" route limits that item to 8 "castable spells". In the baseitems.2da file, I tried modifying rods to cast 20 spells. I tried making a new item that could cast 20 spells. Both options wouldn't let me add more than 8 (must be a hard-coded limit) in the toolset.

I could see doing a hybrid of item and VC activation. I was personally thinking about having each spell "stored" on a 1x1 item in inventory, with a tag that would allow use via the Select tool (for targeting) and a VC command (for activation). The item could be activated itself from inventory or quickslot, and would get a 1x1 container to store all the epic spells in (up to 35 of them, since containers have 7x5 space). Working with a simple container system would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar and allow the use of icons to show at least different seeds used to make the epic spells.

I'm going to start editing the initial post in this thread to reflect the development of all of this.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Mon May 24, 2010 10:31 am

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
The "separate counter" is easy to do. Just assign 8 uses to the Epic Magic feat, then reduce it to the proper uses/day upon sleeping. Have the epic spell script check for remaining uses before taking effect...if uses remain, decrement remaining feat uses by 1 and cast the spell, if not, nothing happens.

If not... quick bit of feedback that you can cast epic magic but can't count to 8, and nothing happens Smile.... ... this sounds ace, and gives the Epic magic feat an actual use...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
After testing in the toolset, going a "single casting item" route limits that item to 8 "castable spells". In the baseitems.2da file, I tried modifying rods to cast 20 spells. I tried making a new item that could cast 20 spells. Both options wouldn't let me add more than 8 (must be a hard-coded limit) in the toolset.

Ah, dammit... I could see the line/colum could be edited was really hoping it would take effect, an 8-spell-max must be hardcoded...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
I could see doing a hybrid of item and VC activation. I was personally thinking about having each spell "stored" on a 1x1 item in inventory, with a tag that would allow use via the Select tool (for targeting) and a VC command (for activation). The item could be activated itself from inventory or quickslot, and would get a 1x1 container to store all the epic spells in (up to 35 of them, since containers have 7x5 space). Working with a simple container system would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar and allow the use of icons to show at least different seeds used to make the epic spells.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how a container would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar, you'd still need to drag/drop from your inventory to the quickbar, instead of just assigning a new function (like you can with rods/multiple spell items)? .... or am I completely missing a function that bags can do ??

Either way a container to hold all the spells will "save" on inventory clutter... and help organisation freaks (like me).. so it's a good thing... .. but will the spells still be sacrificeable/ interchangeable , or will it be 35 different spells and your done, no more leaning/creating new combinations ?.... also if the spell's can't move "out of the bag", can we limit it to 34 spells so you still have one space to play tetris (erm... I mean, shuffle things about within the bag to organise them how you want them)......
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon May 24, 2010 11:51 am

Well, using a container and individual spell items wouldn't be super-quick swapping onto the quickbar, but would involve opening a single container and dragging/dropping. I think it'd end up about as quick as putting a regular 0-9th level spell on there. Not something usually done in the middle of combat anyway. Smile

I'd make the spell items be dropable to make them mobile within the caster's inventory. I can easily make it so that only the original caster can pick them back up if dropped (I don't think another caster should easily benefit from picking up an "epic spell scroll" that was researched (and paid for with gold and xp) by someone else).

As far as a limit of 35 different ones...no. That's just how many will fit in a container and I'll probably make 3 or 4 new small container images just for epic spell holders.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon May 24, 2010 12:29 pm

Clarify:

for me, and i think others, the reason using a 1x1 item with sub radial abilities tied to epic spell slots would be superior in combat is this:

with a single item that has 8 separate abilities, you only need ONE quickslot. To switch the spell that quickslot will cast is MUCH easier in combat than having to open inventory, then open a container, then drag and drop on the quickslot. In combat that all just takes WAY too much time. With single item having 8 abilities on a radial, all you have to do is right-click the quickslot and then left click the radial option you want. No inventory opening needed, no drag and drop. It is doable quickly and easily even in combat. AND it only uses up ONE quickslot, but makes that slot able to accomodate all 8 epic spells you might cast in a day.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon May 24, 2010 12:51 pm

Also, I think Manny's aversion, which I share if I understand correctly, to having many little items, even in a container or containers is just too much inventory clutter/usage. I think it would be better to store individual epic spell variables in the character's database file itself with the tiny book thingy. VC commands can be used to organize the 8 active slots, and browse thru all epic spells known using functionality similar to the current teleport slots and motm slots, actually a sort of hybrid between both.

Out of combat, the truly important considerations are organization related. How to manage, separate, browse, and order the individual spells. VC slots/commands are perfect for that as they dont eat up module resources.

In combat, it is all about two things. Quickslot efficiency and Ease of Use. It has to be simple and fast, so it will stay fun. Now yes, dedicating 8 quickslots to the 8 epic spells you want to cats that day is easily done out of combat and will be easy to use them in combat.... but it is very quickslot inefficient. Having one quickslot that you drag and drop various epic spells to is quickslot efficient, but slow and complicated to do in combat (anything that forces you to open an inventory window in the middle of a fight just sucks in all honesty).

Thats the basic reasoning behind my suggestions. It all hinges on adding the 8 separate 'unique power' propetties to the item property palette, so that the 1x1 Epic Spellcasting 'nexus' item, if you will, can handle calling different variables from predetermined parts of the character's database so that the player can assign different sets of variables (which would be the data for their known epic spells) on the fly using VC commands usually when out of combat, as stopping to type is likely to get you dead in a fight.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon May 24, 2010 1:26 pm

Keep the thoughts comin', folks! Smile

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