Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:06 pm

Nice thoughts on the anti-magic and spell school mechanics! This is one of the reasons I love having an active community here. Smile

school: Divination sounds like it would work, I'll just change it in the spells.2da

anti-magic: I really like the Concentration check idea, perhaps with a DC of 1/4 the spell failure rate plus 1d20 (so a DC of 26-45 if stuck with a 100% spell failure rate).

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:19 pm

I'd say that that's a tad low.... but perhaps not. That would mean that level 35+ casters can still cast epic magic right through without failure

Also, can a 20 not be auto success and a 1 not be autofailure for casting epic spells? That way we don't always have either a 5% chance of success or in reverse, a 5% chance of failure.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:21 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:I'd say that that's a tad low.... but perhaps not. That would mean that level 35+ casters can still cast epic magic right through without failure

Also, can a 20 not be auto success and a 1 not be autofailure for casting epic spells? That way we don't always have either a 5% chance of success or in reverse, a 5% chance of failure.

For skill checks 1's and 20's are not automatic results.

I am not sure how you are arriving at the conclusion that all level 35+ casters would be able to reach a concentration bonus of 98 or greater.

With a DC of 79+1d20, anything less than a +98 concentration bonus carries the chance of failure. +98 is not easy to get, even for a 40th level character. Remember that concentration is based on constitution, not the casting stat modifier.


EDIT: It looks like The Amethyst Dragon was thinking something lower for the base DC... which, because I absolutely hate spell failure in most forms (except from armor), I am totally happy with. I could deal with it going up higher... but in no circumstance do I think the DC should be able to reach 100.

edit2: wow... just realized kitten was responding to The Amethyst Dragon and mot me.... sigh... sorry about that.... duh....


Last edited by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:32 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:25 pm

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Nice thoughts on the anti-magic and spell school mechanics! This is one of the reasons I love having an active community here. Smile

school: Divination sounds like it would work, I'll just change it in the spells.2da

anti-magic: I really like the Concentration check idea, perhaps with a DC of 1/4 the spell failure rate plus 1d20 (so a DC of 26-45 if stuck with a 100% spell failure rate).

It may also be good to update/change the custom item FAQ so that School Immunity to Divination is no longer allowed, rather than conjuration.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:31 pm

Spellschool issue... I'd go for a vote to Divination too ((and changing the granted spells to that as well)) .... most divine spells are beneficial in nature, so there is no need to have an immunity to them....

Divination spell by level....
Level 0

Level 1

* True strike -- Harmless

Level 2

* Find traps -- Harmless
* Identify -- Widgetified in Aenea
* See invisibility -- Harmless

Level 3

* Clairaudience/clairvoyance -- Harmless
* Remove blindness/deafness-- Harmless

Level 4

Level 5

* Feeblemind -- This spell is the only spell that gains benefit from Spell Focus (Divination)
* Legend lore -- Harmless
* True seeing -- Harmless

Level 6

Level 7

* Power word, stun -- Attacking

Level 8

* Premonition -- Harmless

Level 9

* Power word, kill -- Attacking



And I know of no "new" Aenean divination spells ...... ..

Whilst I can see that logic and in-game the spells should fall under Conjuration (you are conjuring forth epic magic), game rules/balance and mechanics of NWN show that they would be better as Divination, there are some Conjuration spells one might want to become Immune to (if you wanted to ""be immune to divination"", your much better off with picking immunity to the three spells separately)..... ....


Also as it currently stands, a 15th level Cleric of Mystara will be immune to Epic Magic (( and whilst I think that's fine with Mystara stopping her clergy from being blasted by epic magic , I also think that it is unfair... .. giving Mystaran clerics Immunity to Divination(thus epic magic) at level 40 however, fits well with the level progression and clergy theme))..... ....


EDIT: damn the way you guys type faster then me.... ..... ...... .. most of the above is irrelevent, but I'd thought I'd leave it here for the clergy of mystara suggestion...


Last edited by RustyDios on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Nul poi)
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:35 pm

My issue with moving the granted spells into a school folks cant be immune to is that the granted spells are normal, non-epic magic. They should be beholden to all the same defenses as normal spells.

Epic magic is in a different class, deity granted spells really arent. They are more extensions of the clerical spell list.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:27 pm

Fair point ... It's just a matter of how you want to view them... *I* like to think they are granted direct from the gods, and thus should circumvent certain rules of magic, but they ARE none the less, just 5 extra spells 1/day as you say... ... I'm sure this route of debate has been covered before in a previous thread... (( and to start it again here, would be an offshoot to the OP of the AEMS )) ...
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Kefrem on Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:03 pm

One idea that ive had...is that i really like that freebie spell all casters get..the little energy blast(cant remember the name) that you can just keep using over and over.

Id like to see higher versions of this...to simulate the wizards capability to cast more powerful versions as he levels. They could be memorizable versions of it or something.

It would simulate in comics and in novels(elminster and mordenkainen come to mind) where they blast away with spells that dont seem to have any analogue in the pnp game. Maybe it could eat other spells the more they use it after the actual memorized versions of it were used up.

Just a fast thought i had.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Kefrem wrote:One idea that ive had...is that i really like that freebie spell all casters get..the little energy blast(cant remember the name) that you can just keep using over and over.

Id like to see higher versions of this...to simulate the wizards capability to cast more powerful versions as he levels. They could be memorizable versions of it or something.

It would simulate in comics and in novels(elminster and mordenkainen come to mind) where they blast away with spells that dont seem to have any analogue in the pnp game. Maybe it could eat other spells the more they use it after the actual memorized versions of it were used up.

Just a fast thought i had.

This is a bit off topic as epic magic is concerned, I think. For further discussion, I recommend posting in this thread where I offered a similar suggestion in my second post (spontaneous telemus arcanum).

The arcane attack feats, while I love them, probably shouldnt get upgraded memorizable versions for all arcan casters. Maybe a special prestige class could unlock something like that.

I am reposting this in the other thread, so that further responses can take place without drawing this thread off topic. Smile
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:43 am

Ok, so the research library and research coding part is taking a little bit longer than I expected (largely because it's data entry inside the toolset, often interrupted by family obligations).

So far, I've got the first "chamber" built, where epic casters can pick the desired effects of their epic magic just by touching a chosen statue. Now I have to construct the other chambers (one for each of the different types of modifications that can be made to the ~150 base epic spell effects), which should go a bit faster since there's only 51 possible modifications, from specific targets to duration to costs to cast.

Anybody doing the math yet to figure out how many different "epic spells" that could be made? Oh, nevermind. You won't be able to figure it out until you see the possibilities, since some of the modifications can be overlapped.

Oh, and three of the statues will basically do the entire "fill in the options" for you, so you can cast hellball, dragon knight, or epic warding (effects that didn't really fit easily (code-wise) into the more broad seed effects).

I'm also working on documentation for the website for all of this so ya'll can work out what you want with effects and costs and such before heading into that library. The research costs themselves will be expensive, so you'll want to plan ahead.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:23 am

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Ok, so the research library and research coding part is taking a little bit longer than I expected (largely because it's data entry inside the toolset, often interrupted by family obligations).

So far, I've got the first "chamber" built, where epic casters can pick the desired effects of their epic magic just by touching a chosen statue. Now I have to construct the other chambers (one for each of the different types of modifications that can be made to the ~150 base epic spell effects), which should go a bit faster since there's only 51 possible modifications, from specific targets to duration to costs to cast.

Anybody doing the math yet to figure out how many different "epic spells" that could be made? Oh, nevermind. You won't be able to figure it out until you see the possibilities, since some of the modifications can be overlapped.

Oh, and three of the statues will basically do the entire "fill in the options" for you, so you can cast hellball, dragon knight, or epic warding (effects that didn't really fit easily (code-wise) into the more broad seed effects).

I'm also working on documentation for the website for all of this so ya'll can work out what you want with effects and costs and such before heading into that library. The research costs themselves will be expensive, so you'll want to plan ahead.

Nice Smile

Will Greater Ruin and Mage Armor still be workable effects?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:42 am

daveyeisley wrote:Will Greater Ruin and Mage Armor still be workable effects?
Yes, but you'll have to name them yourself. Smile You could name them crideas' magic missile and crideas' mage pants if you wanted to. Just pick the options for Destroy (35d6 damage) for the first one and Armor +20 (armor) options for those spells (both without any modifications) and you'll have duplicated both of those original epic spells.

Oh, a note on naming epic spells...you might want to put some thought into spell names, since you're character will be speaking them aloud when the spells are cast.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:04 am

That explains the exclamation point that pops up every time I want to look at the awesome casting sequence for the Epic Magic feat....
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Eric of Atrophy on Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 pm

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:crideas' mage pants
I want a pair of those!
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Maeglin Dubh on Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:54 pm

I'm sure Derik will not disappoint when it comes to spell names.

Derik's Door Destroyer.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:22 pm

As my 1000th post, I've another suggestion for the Epic Magic's Casting Sequence; the animation currently has you do the initial part of the 'pose' for the spell Tempest's Protective Gale.

Might I suggest changing the visual to the one that is used when you cast Greater Santuary instead? It seems more 'epic' than the other for some reason.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Alundaio on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:55 pm

Maeglin Dubh wrote:I'm sure Derik will not disappoint when it comes to spell names.

Derik's Door Destroyer.
Entry Eradication Explosion.
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lol!
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:03 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:As my 1000th post, I've another suggestion for the Epic Magic's Casting Sequence; the animation currently has you do the initial part of the 'pose' for the spell Tempest's Protective Gale.

Might I suggest changing the visual to the one that is used when you cast Greater Santuary instead? It seems more 'epic' than the other for some reason.

Off topic post by The Amethyst Dragon: Congrats on hitting Epic Level poster status! Smile

On topic post by The Amethyst Dragon: Perhaps. I'll play around with them to check them out.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:36 pm

Slight correction to my above statement - it seems that the first part of the animation is the same (the part when you are 'casting' the spell) however the second one (the part where you 'cast' the spell) is not.

The second part is the one I'm suggesting be changed.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:00 pm

One other thing that might have gotten overlooked somewhere (or I missed it entirely) - Will we be able to pick our own VFX for our epic spells?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:53 am

evilkittenofdoom wrote:One other thing that might have gotten overlooked somewhere (or I missed it entirely) - Will we be able to pick our own VFX for our epic spells?
No. The impact (and possible area effect) visual effects are coded in with the spell effects and are not a separate choice.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Eric of Atrophy on Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:24 am

So, The Amethyst Dragon, what's the ETA on this system? And is it only for wizzies, or will sorcs be able to partake of this goodness?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:04 am

Eric of Atrophy wrote:So, The Amethyst Dragon, what's the ETA on this system? And is it only for wizzies, or will sorcs be able to partake of this goodness?

Sorcerors, Clerics, Druids, Pale Masters, and Wizards. Any class that can learn to cast 9th level spells. Smile
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:28 am

Another few more mechanical questions come to mind:

1. Will epic 'buff' spells be dispellable like normal spells, with a DC of 11+caster level? (I think epic spells should get a +2 or +4 bonus to the DC if they are going to be dispellable at all by mord's. The exception to this would be Epic Dispelling, which should work normally, or maybe even have a bonus on the check .)

2. Will epic buffs be removed by anti-magic? (I think this should be no, or involve a check where the epic caster would most likely have a significant advantage)

3. How will NPCs work with using epic spells?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by RustyDios on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:32 am

daveyeisley wrote:Another few more mechanical questions come to mind:


3. How will NPCs work with using epic spells?

And the thought of coming up to a group of DM controlled Arcane Blackguards just got a sh*t load more worry-some....NPCs with the same Epic-Magic as players... I'm scared, very very scared.... .. you can be an evil genius sometimes dave... .. Smile
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:03 am

While I do like the idea of enemies having these newer Epic Spells... it does concern me a bit.......

That's not to mention one other little question - will the AI even use them?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:24 am

Eric of Atrophy wrote:So, The Amethyst Dragon, what's the ETA on this system? And is it only for wizzies, or will sorcs be able to partake of this goodness?
Not sure on an ETA. Working on it depends on getting more than a minute of free computer time at a stretch...which should be a little easier in a week after the wife starts back at work, the oldest child starts back in school, the middle child gets back into liking preschool (now that his brother won't be home all day to play with).

Like mentioned above, this will be for "epic casters": wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, pale master. Most will have a limit of possible known epic spells set at 40. Wizards will be able to research up to 50 epic spells. Pale masters will get the feat at 15th level (in pale master, not character levels), but for casts/day they will count as 1/2 their level. Each caster will have a "primary caster class" that determines which "epic spell seeds" they can access and how many times/day they can cast. For all division below, everything gets rounded down.

Example 1: Wizard, 21st level, 24 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: wizard
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + ("caster class level" / 10) = 4 casts/day
(24 / 10 = 2) + (21 / 10 = 2) = 4

Example 2: Wizard, 40th level, 43 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: wizard
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + ("caster class level" / 10) = 8 casts/day
(40 / 10 = 4) + (43 / 10 = 4) = 8

Example 3: Wizard 10/Pale Master 30, 43 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: pale master
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + (("caster class level" / 2) / 10) = 5 casts/day
(40 / 10 = 4) + ((30 / 2) / 10 = 1) = 5

Example 4: Wizard 21/Pale Master 19, 43 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: wizard
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + ("caster class level" / 10) + (("caster class level" / 2) / 10) = 7 casts/day
(40 / 10 = 4) + (21 / 10 = 2) + ((30 / 2) / 10 = 1) = 7

Example 5: Wizard 21/Cleric 19, 43 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: wizard
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + ("caster class level" / 10) = 6 casts/day
(40 / 10 = 4) + (21 / 10 = 2) = 6

Basically, all ranks in Spellcraft contribute to casts/day. Only "epic caster levels" in caster classes contribute to casts/day...so if you are multi-classed but your second caster class wouldn't be able to cast epic spells, it doesn't contribute to casts/day and doesn't open up additional epic spell seeds.

daveyeisley wrote:1.
Will epic 'buff' spells be dispellable like normal spells, with a DC of
11+caster level? (I think epic spells should get a +2 or +4 bonus to
the DC if they are going to be dispellable at all by mord's. The
exception to this would be Epic Dispelling, which should work normally,
or maybe even have a bonus on the check .)

2. Will epic buffs be
removed by anti-magic? (I think this should be no, or involve a check
where the epic caster would most likely have a significant advantage)

3. How will NPCs work with using epic spells?

1. Not sure. I'll have to try to dig into the mechanics of dispelling to figure out exactly how the code works.

2. Yes. But, since there's only one type of creature in Aenea right now with anti-magic, I don't see it as a huge threat to PCs (since those epic characters probably have ways of dealing with beholders already).

3. They won't have access to the new epic magic system, but will still be able to use the old epic spell feats. I'll probably end up adding a few more just for NPCs as "pre-researched" ones to simulate them doing some epic research of their own.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:will the AI even use them?
No, but see #3 just above.

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by __Ua__ on Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:37 pm

An idea that just poped into my head while we are on the topic of buffs. An epic buff that acts as a layer of "armor" to protect the other buffs on the caster from the breach spell/ability in mords. It would not stop normal dispelling so a more powerful (or lucky) caster could still strip the buffs ,but it would stop breach-able spells from being so vulnerable to mords or breach cast from a scroll. Not sure how odd/tricky the coding would be for that ,but its an idea.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:02 pm

Example 4: Wizard 21/Pale Master 19, 43 ranks in Spellcraft
primary casting class: wizard
casts/day: (Spellcraft Ranks / 10) + ("caster class level" / 10) + (("caster class level" / 2) / 10) = 7 casts/day
(40 / 10 = 4) + (21 / 10 = 2) + ((30 / 2) / 10 = 1) = 7

For this example, I believe the 19 Pale master levels divided by 2 would come to 9.5, which then divided by 10 would be .95.... which rounded down would be 0. I think your intent was to make it a minimum of 1 cast/day for reaching the level in a class where it would qualify for epic magic?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Alundaio on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:08 pm

I think he is saying that All your epic caster levels are counted even if multi-classed. It's just that Palemaster is only counts half their levels. So if I was an epic level 21 wizard and a level 19 Palemaster I would be counted as a level 30 epic caster for purposes of the new epic magic system.

Edit: Unless you mean a non-epic caster multi-classed with 19 Palemaster levels. I guess using that formula you wouldn't be able to cast epic magic. But I'm assume the script rounds up.


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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:11 pm

2. Yes. But, since there's only one type of creature in Aenea right now
with anti-magic, I don't see it as a huge threat to PCs (since those
epic characters probably have ways of dealing with beholders already).

Well, the beholders tend to be a pretty big deal simply because the other high end monsters have not had their XP adjusted yet (especially in the dark realm) to be competitive.... so if a player can handle beholders, and they want XP, there is not much incentive to hunt other enemies .... the dark realm was supposed to help fix this problem, but the loot and XP are lackluster right now... and that has significantly dampened the appeal.

Aside from that, however, the beholder's antimagic is already able to take away a caster's non-epic spells.... the idea of the caster at least having a skill check to resist losing the ability to use epic spells is moot if he casts an epic buff spell and it instantly goes 'poof'. This presents the practical problem of epic spells not offering versatility against beholders... either you use epic nukes, or you dont use epic magic at all... hence why I wanted to bring the issue up now.... so that it could be looked at now before we head into the bugfixing stage.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:25 pm

Alundaio wrote:I think he is saying that All your epic caster levels are counted even if multi-classed. It's just that Palemaster is only counts half their levels. So if I was an epic level 21 wizard and a level 19 Palemaster I would be counted as a level 30 epic caster for purposes of the new epic magic system.

Edit: Unless you mean a non-epic caster with 19 Palemaster levels. I guess using that formula you wouldn't be able to cast epic magic...

The script rounds down, have a look at the last line of the second paragraph of The Amethyst Dragon's post.

Any character with 19 Pale Master levels would be an epic caster. You cannot progress past level 10 in a prestige class until you get to level 20 as a character.... so a 19th level pale master must be a level 29 character at minimum, and Pale Masters qualify for epic magic at level 15 of their class. If you half those 19 levels, you get 9.5, then divide by 10, and you are at .95... which rounds to 0. This means that Pale masters below level 20 would get no casts per day from their caster levels, even though they are epic casters (their spellcraft would still help).

The problem is that in the example I quoted, The Amethyst Dragon had left a '30' in the spot where the palemasters levels get divided by 2, when it should have been a '19'. This led to the math coming out to 15 divided by 10 rather than 9.5 divided by 10.... which rounds to 1 instead of to 0.

As a level 21 wizard, level 19 Pale Master, you would be considered 'Epic' in both classes.

You get your full wizard level of 21 added to half of your Pale Master level of 19. This comes to 21 + 9.5 and then each is divided by 10. That leaves us with 2.1 + .95 which if we round down would be 2 + 0. I think The Amethyst Dragon's intent was to have there be a minimum of 1 cast per day for achieving a high enough level in a class to qualify for epic magic in that class.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Alundaio on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:39 pm

There is no ceiling math function in nwn scripts? I think a level 15 Palemaster should be able to cast at least once per day. Because what if you are a Bard/Palemaster? You won't be able to cast Epic Magic unless you have 20 Palemaster levels.

Perhaps the script can calculate the Palemaster levels as ceil( (Levels/2)/10 ). every other class could still be rounded down.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Alundaio wrote:There is no ceiling math function in nwn scripts? I think a level 15 Palemaster should be able to cast at least once per day. Because what if you are a Bard/Palemaster? You won't be able to cast Epic Magic unless you have 20 Palemaster levels.

Not quite. As a level 15 Pale master, you still qualify for epic spells. Your ranks in spellcraft would then allow for you to cast them... at level 25, you only need 20 ranks in spellcraft and you get 2 casts/day.

EDIT: Come to think of it, thats sort of similar to how Pale Masters gain slots to qualify for new spells, but do not actually learn them automatically.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Alundaio on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm

EDIT: Come to think of it, thats sort of similar to how Pale Masters gain slots to qualify for new spells, but do not actually learn them automatically.

Which makes everything but Wizard a very poor choice to multi-class with Palemaster.

I really hope they get some sort of update. With the undead summon add-on a wizard with Create Undead and Animate Dead can cast it more times then a Palemaster and even have stronger summons making Wizards more effective necromancer than the prestige class. Other then taking Palemaster for the AC bonuses and abilities they are truly a useless class. I'll save that for another time in a suggestion thread. Sad
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:33 pm

Alundaio wrote:
EDIT: Come to think of it, thats sort of similar to how Pale Masters gain slots to qualify for new spells, but do not actually learn them automatically.

Which makes everything but Wizard a very poor choice to multi-class with Palemaster.

I really hope they get some sort of update. With the undead summon add-on a wizard with Create Undead and Animate Dead can cast it more times then a Palemaster and even have stronger summons making Wizards more effective necromancer than the prestige class. Other then taking Palemaster for the AC bonuses and abilities they are truly a useless class. I'll save that for another time in a suggestion thread. Sad

I think PMs need a caster level boost, sure. With a sorc/PM, you just have to some the sorc levels later, so you have higher level slots and you can choose the higher level spells. Your selection isnt going to be great either way.... but the caster level is the real issue.

As for comparing them to wizards.... heh.... the hitpoints, immunities and AC of PM are the tradeoff for why wizards get better spellcasting. I do think PM was designed to synergize better with wizards than with sorcerors.

But we are getting off topic here... we can make a new topic to discuss PMs in the suggesion section if you want. I know this came up before, and the thread ended up locked...
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Svair on Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:47 pm

If I understand this correctly, my 6th Bard / 24th Level PM will get 4 casts a day (instead of the 3 normal Epic Spell Feats normally available to PMs).

(43 Lore /10) + [(24 lvls PM / 2) / 10] = (4.3 + 0.6) = 4 (rounding down).

Is this correct?
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:56 pm

5, based on the above. [(24 lvls PM / 2) /10] ends up being 1.2, not 0.6.

If I might suggest it though... why not do the rounding after adding the two numbers together? That would at least give a small boost to those oddball builds that involve PM that ends up with something like the aforementioned 2.1 + .95. That would allow for a result of 3 casts rather than 2.

At the most, someone's only getting an extra cast out of it over the current method, and I for one don;t think it'd be game breaking...
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:38 am

I would agree, if the math can be reworked to round down after the addition takes place.... as long as it doesnt break anything Razz
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Svair on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:51 am

evilkittenofdoom wrote:5, based on the above. [(24 lvls PM / 2) /10] ends up being 1.2, not 0.6.

My Calc II class final is next week. I better learn basic division before that occurs.
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:47 am

The code works off integers, so no decimal values. 1.999999999 rounds down to 1. 0.9999999999999 rounds down to 0. It basically just chops off any "remainder".

For epic spell casts/day, everything works off "full 10s". 1 cast per day for every 10 ranks in Spellcraft. 1 cast per day for every 10 caster levels for epic casters.

Pale masters won't get a lot of epic casts per day from their class. As "half-casters", their strengths lie more in their undead minions (which can be stronger than the ones conjured by spells) and immunities rather than in actual spellcasting ability. They'll get the casts/day from Spellcraft ranks, plus 1 cast per 20 pale master levels (which basically means 1, since you can't get to 40th level in pale master). If you're a pale master (without another epic casting class) and want to actually cast epic spells before your 20th pale master level, you'll want to invest ranks in Spellcraft.

The most casts/day ( 8 ) comes from class dedication (aka, all 40 levels) to a single primary spellcasting class (cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard) and dedicating 40-43 base ranks for Spellcraft.


Last edited by The Amethyst Dragon on Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by Skywatcher on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:25 pm

Ok,as lyanna build is currently, she will get 10 I think, once I rework her with 3 exgtra feats t may go to 11. So what is the DC to research "summon Death Star to blow up moon.......Vesper, I meant Vesper!!" Looks virtuious. I would never blow up a moon just to destroy a moonbase!
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:02 pm

The max is 8 casts/day. It's based off class levels and base ranks in Spellcraft (which has a max of 43, since feats and item/magic bonuses don't count for this).

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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Skywatcher wrote:Ok,as lyanna build is currently, she will get 10 I think, once I rework her with 3 exgtra feats t may go to 11. So what is the DC to research "summon Death Star to blow up moon.......Vesper, I meant Vesper!!" Looks virtuious. I would never blow up a moon just to destroy a moonbase!

Crideas begins research on two spells: Conjure Sunlight, and Detonate Thermal Exhaust Port. Razz
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Re: Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:43 pm

Update (8/9/2010): Making much more progress on coding the research portion and coding new VC commands to go along with this.

Useable placeables will be used throughout the research process for picking options and moving along in the process. VC commands will be needed for only 3 things during epic spell research: picking a "slot" to fill with a new spell, setting a name for the spell, and setting a description for the spell.

When it comes to spell name and description, that's up to the individual caster doing the research. Anyone around you will see the spell name when you cast it. Nobody else will see the descriptions, so I recommend just including raw mechanics. You can add a line break/carriage return to your text by including "\n" (without the quotation marks) where you want the break.

All epic magic VC commands will be preceded by ;;em (for "epic magic" ).

Still working on the website documentation for all of this. There's a lot of info that needs to be available for caster-player research before the in-game research happens. It's nice if you can plan out your in-game research to make sure you are working on a spell your character will actually be able to cast. Smile

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