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Post by RustyDios on Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Hail All !!

Was just thinking about this and decided it's best I'd put up my findings and see if anyone can think of a way to improve it (barring the obvious singular rogue level for UMD ~ which would only help for scroll use!) ...

When I created Grace my intention was to have a mistress of all of Aenea's magic.. I made her as a 20th Cleric/ 20th Wizard of Mystara (I have since tweaked her a little to a 18th Cleric / 22nd Wizard to account for better Epic Magic choices)... the idea was to also ensure she had access to all the item-creation feats (and be able to craft anything) ... ... So keeping those ideas in mind, I think I've not done a bad job... however, I'm considering re-incarnation for her now and wanted to know if anyone had a better idea to get ALL the spells...

The NWN Wiki has 302 pages in the spells category (1 for each default spell)... the Aenea webpage states that there are 124 new spells... making Aenea's total spell count at 426... I've worked out that of those, there are 45 spells Grace can't cast/scribe/use (mainly lv6+ druid spells, but a few oddballs from Ranger, Paladin and Bard too)... and a few that are locked out as cleric spells (but castable as sor/wiz)....

Idea's anyone ? .... ... ... .... ....
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Post by Elhanan on Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:25 pm

Based on what little I know of Casters, you may wish to make one 26th+ in order to prevent Dispels. Mage for offense; Cleric for defense.

But I am sold on Wizard/ Rogue combos for the huge amt of Skill pts; more than UMD scroill use. I also use it to wear Dwarven armor, AA longbows, Disarm and Set Traps, Perception, Tumble, and Appraise.
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Post by Skywatcher on Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:21 pm

I kinda like Lyann......40 wiz levels, 8 EM uses, Paragon, Epic Spell penetration, Spellcraft 111 going for 126.........
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Post by Angel of Death on Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:15 am

RustyDios wrote:Hail All !!

Was just thinking about this and decided it's best I'd put up my findings and see if anyone can think of a way to improve it (barring the obvious singular rogue level for UMD ~ which would only help for scroll use!) ...

When I created Grace my intention was to have a mistress of all of Aenea's magic.. I made her as a 20th Cleric/ 20th Wizard of Mystara (I have since tweaked her a little to a 18th Cleric / 22nd Wizard to account for better Epic Magic choices)... the idea was to also ensure she had access to all the item-creation feats (and be able to craft anything) ... ... So keeping those ideas in mind, I think I've not done a bad job... however, I'm considering re-incarnation for her now and wanted to know if anyone had a better idea to get ALL the spells...

...

Idea's anyone ? .... ... ... .... ....

In regard to your question, I don't think it's possible to gain access to all spells with a single character...without the use of leto, unless you take the path of getting Use Magic Device and buffs the skill up through the roof (so it's impossible to fail save when using the scrolls--having a good charisma is a plus too). No

I could of course be mistaken since I am by no means an expert on building characters, but I sincerely doubt it's possible... Smile
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Post by RustyDios on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:15 am

Okay.. well.. it's not going to be possible for Grace (due to deity restrictions) but I think it could work on another PC, maybe...

A Cleric 13/14, Wizard 13/14, Druid 13/14... multiclass combination might be able to get a greater share of known spells, although they would be limited to what they could actually use ( limited to only 7th lev, and the druid/cleric clashes would limit it more).. yes it's possible to top up with extra slots/day items (I think), so you could end up with at least one 8th/9th slot for each class.....
... but all druids are turned to worshipping Andra and Andra Clerics gain no spells (and loose any from previous deities).... ... ... So this would be a big hurdle to what would actually be castable in-game...

If the above was all true and able, then that PC would only be missing a handful of spells (A few bard, paladin and ranger exclusives)... ... ..
And access to any epic spells ...

Alas, I can't think of any way in Aenea to get ALL the spells on a singular PC (barring scroll use and UMD, which isn't the intention, I wanted them "naturally")... or any way to get her spellpool to be any more comprehensive then it is.. oh well, guess I'll have to settle with having only a 90%ish share... ... ..


Thanks for the help and thoughts though folks !
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Post by Svair on Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:58 pm

I have nothing to add except this is an interesting thought exercise (at the very least) - it's something I've thought about often for a couple of years. But you've certainly put more thought into than I have, especially as you've put a finite number the number of restricted spells that a Clr/Wiz can't access.

Were I still playing a long term 3.0/3.5 game, Mystic Thuerge is the class I'd take. I love the concept and was impressed when I met Grace...
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:37 am

Wizard\cleric's the best choice for getting a large volume of the spells... wizard/cleric/bard will net you UMD, one, maybe two 1st level bard spells not accessible to clerics or wizards.
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Post by RustyDios on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:38 pm

Yeah.. A wizard 21 / Cleric 17 / Bard 2 will get me the same amount of spells as current (Wizard and Cleric upto 9th level), Bard spells to lv1 (including the currently locked out Amplify), Epic Spells (Arcane Focused), A Bard Song, Bardic Knowledge, Access to UMD/Tumble as class skills, Identify and Legend Lore, Arcane Attacks, Turn Undead, A Familiar, Free Scribe Scroll feat, 4x Wizard Bonus Feats and (for Grace with Mystara as patron) Clerical Immunity to Illusion, Necromancy and Conjuration... and four granted spells ( A clr18/bard1 would gain all the granted spells but loose the Amplify, could still cast it using UMD possibly... )

I think that mixing a Bard level into Grace's build would possibly be a really good idea anyway, she stands to loose very little but gains a fair amount... It would also mean that she'll be able to "cast" any spell she finds, she'll just not be able to do them all "naturally"...

Might go do some "math" and see what I can figure out for her... .. A 2nd lv rogue gives her nearly the same skill tree (UMD and Tumble mainly) but adds a 1d6 Sneak Attack and Natural Evasion in for consideration.... ... ...((which is the UMD route I was thinking of, because I forgot that bards get UMD too !!! , thankye for the reminder o' Great Bardic One !!!)) ... ...

Hmm.. Got some things to think about now... .. ... ..
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Post by Ramana Jala on Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:58 pm

How do you get by with UMD for scroll use through only 2 rogue levels? With the hardcore rule for UMD, don't you have to have 34 UMD to guarantee you won't fail using a scroll because of a roll less than 20? I suppose if you had an incredibly high Charisma...?
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:22 pm

NWN1 allows you to save skillpoints for a skilldump.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:31 pm

Thanks for the tip! I'd never tried to save skillpoints to the next leveling. Can you save all of them, or is it only a limited amount?
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Post by Elhanan on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:39 pm

Ramana Jala wrote:Thanks for the tip! I'd never tried to save skillpoints to the next leveling. Can you save all of them, or is it only a limited amount?

All, I believe. This was done because Cross Class skill pts were not implemented correctly.
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Post by RustyDios on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:58 pm

In NWN1 you can save every single skill point you get, right up to 40th level if you want, and then spread them around as you see fit... ..

So depending on what you take as that 40th lev (and how many points you've saved) really can completely adjust a PC's abilities....

Now it's not something done by everyone, and I know a few you deem it as "unfair play / cheating / exploiting (~1 Bard level at 40th can get 40odd class skill UMD points, as well as 40odd Tumble)... but the way I see it is like this ; you either spend the points and improve on things as you level-up, OR you remain a weakass (skill wise) until you want to spend the points... ...

There are arguments for and against skillpoint dumps that I don't want to go into in this thread but basically it's something I consider when planning a PC out... I plan to go to 40th, so if I need to save some points from my other classes along the way (so the PC's not as strong at each level, but gets a skill point boost where/when required) where's the problem .. ... .. .. ..

It's just all about balance and planning...
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Post by Elhanan on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:25 pm

In 3E PnP, a Skill should be able to to gain max rank if one class has the Skill, though it should have been costly to do so via CC purchases. These rules were not implemented properly, so the walkround seems fair to me.

In Aenea, some of my characters have used the Re-level Scales for this (eg; Casters) as it may help them in post-Epic play; still untried currently.

But most of mine are generally content with investing most or all Skill Pts along the way, and the Scales are used to repair errors and the like. To each, their own....
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Post by Ramana Jala on Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:00 pm

Thanks for the info, I'll keep this in mind now, as it might occasionally make some leveling skill quandries easier.

By the way, the Releveling Scales, are you saying that they take your character back to L1, with all previously earned XP points available to relevel back up to the level you were at?
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Post by Elhanan on Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:35 pm

Ramana Jala wrote:Thanks for the info, I'll keep this in mind now, as it might occasionally make some leveling skill quandries easier.

By the way, the Releveling Scales, are you saying that they take your character back to L1, with all previously earned XP points available to relevel back up to the level you were at?

Yes, and all the XP penalties are taken into acct. My recommendation is to save both sets of Scales for Epic rebuilds, if possible.
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Post by RustyDios on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:31 pm

Ramana Jala wrote:Thanks for the info, I'll keep this in mind now, as it might occasionally make some leveling skill quandries easier.

By the way, the Releveling Scales, are you saying that they take your character back to L1, with all previously earned XP points available to relevel back up to the level you were at?

Yes that is exactly what they do... they remove all your XP, shunt you to a small astral room, and give you back the exact same XP... they don't remove any gained semi-class stuff (or they didn't, not 100% sure if that has changed), and they can't change anything made at PC creation (1st level and before entering the world, or before entering the Sleeping Dragon for the first time) .. .. ...but they also correctly remove any class-dependant ability bonuses (ie from Dragonsoul/RDD)... they don't remove any gained ability boosts from "tomes" or "lady shea stat buys".... ...

So providing you have used some of the above during your time you can potentially start building at level 1, with a much better PC then you had previously..... this was not the original intent however, as they were designed as a way to "fix" major PC "mistakes" , either slips of the mouse or PC concept flaws... or simply something that really isn't working out for you and your style of play.... ...

You get one set of scales at 2nd level and another at 21st... personally I try to save the 2nd lev set for lv 21 (tweeks in design for epic level) and the 21st set for 40th (more PC tweeks and/or optimisation)... .... that's not to say that a DM won't give you another set if you ask politely with a good reason.. or "earn" one ... ... .. ..

They can also be useful for new players (and old) to test out if you like any number of the Aenea custom classes... .. ..
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Post by Elhanan on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:46 pm

It may be advisable to deactivate Ioun Stones and remove gear with ability increases while using the Scales; ounce of prevention and all that.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:42 pm

RustyDios wrote:
You get one set of scales at 2nd level and another at 21st... personally I try to save the 2nd lev set for lv 21 (tweeks in design for epic level) and the 21st set for 40th (more PC tweeks and/or optimisation)...

So, are both set of Scales functionally the same, in that either can be used at any level up to 40 to reset you back to 1 (so you can sit in the little room and relevel)? Or is there a level range of functionality that's different between the first set and the second set?
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Post by Elhanan on Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:15 pm

Both are the same.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:11 am

Elhanan wrote:
...and all the XP penalties are taken into acct.

Do you mean, such as if you decided to re-level unevenly, that is, in the way that would normally incur a multi-class XP penalty, during this process you will also incur a multi-class XP penalty (that could potentially mean you don't get as many levels back)?

By the way, this correction device is just another of the great Aenea perks for which I'm appreciative. I've always been afraid of leveling mistakes so much that I pre-plan and agonize like crazy. Especially trying to account for specifics about a character that you don't really know until you're very familiar with a campaign or world. This insurance is really an essential luxury that eases one's mind about that.
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Post by Elhanan on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:54 am

Ramana Jala wrote:
Elhanan wrote:
...and all the XP penalties are taken into acct.

Do you mean, such as if you decided to re-level unevenly, that is, in the way that would normally incur a multi-class XP penalty, during this process you will also incur a multi-class XP penalty (that could potentially mean you don't get as many levels back)?

By the way, this correction device is just another of the great Aenea perks for which I'm appreciative. I've always been afraid of leveling mistakes so much that I pre-plan and agonize like crazy. Especially trying to account for specifics about a character that you don't really know until you're very familiar with a campaign or world. This insurance is really an essential luxury that eases one's mind about that.

Yes. You are placed into a chamber beyond Aenea proper; just remove items and deativate Ioun stones (always a good idea anywhere when Respec). and re-lvl. I have yet to ever hit a glitch, and as you have already incurred and paid for XP penalties; no worries.
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Post by RustyDios on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:08 pm

Yeah basically XP penalties for multi-classing (and subraces) are calculated when you gain the XP... the scales will give you back exactly what XP you had... whatever happens to be on your char sheet as current xp (which is the adjusted XP you have gained with multi-class and subrace penalties included)...

The script literally removes your current XP for a nanosecond (thus forcing you to go back to level 1), performs a few other minor checks (like checking dragonsoul ability increases, or 20lv+ paladin wings).. then gives you back that exact same XP that you had, to do what you want with... ... ...


One of the biggest drawbacks is if you make a mistake in the chamber, you still have to leave and use another set of scales to rectify that mistake... ...

It has been suggested previously that the scales just send you to the chamber, and the chamber itself has a lever/placeable that fires the re-level script... thus you could stay in the chamber for as long as required until you get everything correct (well as long as until the next reset)..... ....
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Post by Ramana Jala on Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:28 pm

Actually my question was more oriented to what happens if you level in the chamber in a way that should incur new different multiclass penalties, that you didn't have during the original earning before.

I level very carefully to avoid multiclass penalties, taking a level of Rogue then a level of Ranger alternatingly all the way up to the last possible point. I was considering hypothetically that if I ever releveled, I might want to take advantage of the skilldump principle, and take less rogue levels. For example, currently Ramana was planned to be 21 Ranger, 17-18 Rogue, 1-2 ShadowDancer. Which means that like only the last couple levels would have the multiclass penalty. But if I wanted to relevel to 22 Ranger, 15 Rogue, SD 3 --or 21 Ranger, 13 Rogue, SD 6-- (and let the last level be Rogue to skilldump the rest of my Tumble and UMD) then I'd theoretically have many more levels of multiclass penalty during the relevel chamber, that I didn't have before. So I wanted to know if the chamber will insert a multiclass penalty, or it's scripted to not care about multiclass penalties. If it inserted the new multiclass penalties, then I might end up with less levels --which is no biggie, I'm just curious about the mechanics. I hope that elaborates my issue better.

And btw, if I ever did relevel, it might take me an hour or two, so about when are the server resets?

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Post by Eric of Atrophy on Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:33 pm

Once every 24 hours, sometime in the morning, I believe ... when Ray or Rusty are on, of course, the likelihood of server resets increases dramatically ... Laughing
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Post by RustyDios on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:33 pm

Hmm.. true that Eric, but more so when Ray is around... Smile... And I've heard of the server crashing before when attempting to compute a seriously weird concoction of letters all scrambled together into something entirely unpronounceable in the first and last name fields Smile .... ....

You can check on the server reset time using the VC Commands....
;;info time or ;;t as well as the actual game time, month, season, year and lunar phases (useful for wolfbloods and werewolves) ... and the time between when you can next sleep or use a renewal potion/sleep potion... ...


As for your actual question.. erm.. stumped... I know from experience that if I've used them at xxLv I've always gotten back to xxLv in whatever combination I've taken.... although I always use them with plenty of excess XP for the level I was at (just a little below the next level for a mid-career change, and way over for a 40th redux)... ... And I generally tend to follow almost the same path unless I'm completely re-doing a PC's concept (rare)... .. ..

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Post by Eric of Atrophy on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:16 pm

RustyDios wrote: And I've heard of the server crashing before when attempting to compute a seriously weird concoction of letters all scrambled together into something entirely unpronounceable in the first and last name fields Smile .... ....
You mean something like "T'setnoc Nowi", amirite? Razz (I think that's how you spell the name ...)
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:57 pm

I believe the multiclass penalties for mismatched leveling only affect a character when XP is earned. For the relevel function, the existing total is recorded, the PC is set to 1 XP, then the original number of XP is set (rather than "given") again...since the number is set rather than added together, the PC isn't "gaining" that XP and isn't hit with a penalty.

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Post by RustyDios on Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:12 pm

Eric of Atrophy wrote:
RustyDios wrote: And I've heard of the server crashing before when attempting to compute a seriously weird concoction of letters all scrambled together into something entirely unpronounceable in the first and last name fields Smile .... ....
You mean something like "T'setnoc Nowi", amirite? Razz (I think that's how you spell the name ...)


Yeah okay... I'll give you that one, possibly because there will be some language barriers between us with it... " T'setnoc R'tseht Nowi" ... if it helps the name would read SET-NOCK AR-SEHT NOW-I .... the name was derived from the PC concept and the thread and contest that inspired the PC concept ... backwards the name reads (after you split it correctly) " I won the STR contest " ... from this contest here specifically ... .. ... ..

But mainly I was referring to entries 4 to 9 (plus a few more) from here ...... Smile ... Razz Cool
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Post by RayvenNightkind on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:54 pm

Hey now I ain't crashed the server in a while now......... (thinks it bout time to nuke a hoard of chickens with a hell ball...... Twisted Evil ) JK..... Or am I? Evil or Very Mad
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Post by Ramana Jala on Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:16 am

Thank you, everyone, questions answered.

I love you
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:32 am

If you are in the chamber when a reset happens, all that'll happen to your character is you'll appear in the astral conjunction when you log back in, and everybody will get to see your supreme powerlevelling of madness and you'll give the angel of glory a sore throat from all her shouting Wink
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