Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:04 am

I'm considering a change to the way the game handles epic spells.

Right now, each epic spell is taken as a separate feat, with the prerequisite being an epic level caster with certain base ranks in Spellcraft. Each feat can be used once per day.


What I am considering doing is making a rather large change...

First, adding several new epic spells to the game, such as:
Devastation (40d6 ray of magical force)
Epic Death Spell (1 living target dies instantly (no HD limit), successful fort. save means 3d6+20 damage)

Second, adding a generic "Epic Spells" feat that serves as the basis for using the epic spells themselves. This one would actually be a collection of feats (Epic Spells I to Epic Spells VI), each later one succeeding the previous one.

Epic Spells I would mean the caster could cast one epic spell per day, with a save DC of 21 + ability modifier. Basically, this acts as an "epic spell slot". This feat would be "useable", but only so that you could see it on the quickbar to know how many epic spells you can still cast before sleeping.

Epic Spells II would mean the caster could cast two epic spells per day, with a save DC of 22 + ability modifier.

and so on, up to 6 times per day and DC 26 + modifier.

Half of the epic spells themselves would be automatically granted at 21st level (the less powerful ones), and half would be granted at 31st level (the more powerful ones). None would actually be useable unless you had the Epic Spells (1-6) feat(s), and casting the epic spells would automatically decrement the Epic Spells feat. Epic spells would become "spontaneous" spells for all epic casters instead of just single use feats (although, it'd still be only one epic spell/day if you only took Epic Spells I).


So...

Before I do anything more with this than really think about it (such as modifying 2da files, creating icons, scripting, etc.), what does everyone think? Cast your vote (within the next 3 days), and post your thoughts (any time)!

- Oh, hell(ball) yeah! (go for it)
- Sounds interesting (go for it)
- Maybe (I'm indecisive)
- Sounds like too much work (don't do it)
- Don't do it! (don't do it)


Last edited by The Amethyst Dragon on Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by daveyeisley on Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:28 am

Its sounds interesting on paper.

But if the above system is the only option other than the way things work currently.... might as well leave it be...

Needing to invest a feat for each usage per day is one of my main problems with the current system... and the above change would not fix that.

PnP epic spells system involves spending only one feat and being able to cast up to 4 epic spells in a single day if you have kept your spellcraft maxxed out. So one feat = 4 uses.

Now, I know that in PnP there is a LOT more involved in researching/learning epic spells than in NWN. So I could see 1 feat = 2 uses in NWN to balance that.

Also, I think the Spellcraft skill should still be tied into it somehow. You need to really know your stuff
to be able to use Epic Magic.

But 1 feat = 1 usage is just piddly to me. Epic feats for other
classes have MANY more uses per day (bard song/epic rage feats) or some even have unlimited usage, and don't require a certain number of levels in a specific class (epic dodge/devastating critical).
I see no reason why casters should get the short end of the stick.
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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by Svair on Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:47 am

I believe that Epic Spells should be modified to be made relevant to the context of Aenean specifically and NWN1 at large.

Aenea, to my mind and play experience, favors Arcane casters.

Having said that, Epic Spells as they currently are employed seem kind of silly (once per day, Hellball won't do much vs an adequately equipped PC or modified creature). I have no problem with having casters being able to cast multiple times/day their Epic spells.

My one caveat: What is good for the goose is good for the gander. But if the gander cannot, then the goose shouldn't be able to either. I believe this applies not only to Epic Spells, but to all functional abilities/class abilities/etc...(example: if my PC can't create equipment that makes him/her immune to to Crits, NPCs should not have that option unless it is a Class ability).

Casters in Aenea have many options (wide spell selection, equipment that can be found/created/etc...), and leaving them the way they are wouldn't bother me to much. But I think that that the Epic Spells should be as flexible and, at the very least, be able to be casted more that once/day.

My 2 cents.
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Post by RustyDios on Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:42 am

I'm not an epic spellcaster (yet), so have no real opinion either way... I have never played NWN as an Epic spellcaster and have no idea how it currently works, or how this change would make it better.. ..

I have however read most(if not all) of daveyeisley's posts on Epic spells.. and to me they sound limited and in need of change.. these are suppose to be the life-works of the greatest mages ever in all excistence.. and terribly dangerous.

From a game perspective I hate most 1/day items.. a day is so so long (that being a day by resting - resting .. not an actual in-game day..which is about 20mins).. so when up in those epic levels even an epic spellcaster can go days without rest.. 1/day seems limited, very limited...

So yes I say a change is in order for the epic spells, but maybe just not this one put foward..

Verdict : Maybe (I'm indecisive)....
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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:15 am

Keep that feedback coming! Smile

Oh, and I didn't realize it before last night (since I've only seen epic wizards using them), but clerics and druids can get epic spells too. Smile

I do still plan on adding some more epic spells, it's just a matter of how I go about doing it.

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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by sevenar on Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:32 am

An epic arcane caster is my be-all-end-all favorite character to play. It's the first thing I make on every server, and I've played through NWN+SoU+HotU a few times with one. That being said, I have always thought the epic spells in NWN cost too much to be practical; a whole feat is a really big investment for 1/day, and I would much rather have a higher DC taking the Great Int feats.

Because the spells are "so powerful" I can understand that it would be extremely draining to conjure up such magic and hence the 1/day makes sense, but from a playing standpoint... I can cast an empowered Delayed Blast Fireball and do just as much, if not more, damage as a hellball... and do that six times for no feat investment.

I feel like giving a player access to every epic spell is giving them too much power. These are supposed to be the most powerful spells in existence, as someone said above, and you wouldn't be able to theoretically learn ALL of them in a lifetime. I think giving more castings per day would be a much more practical improvement than more variety.

I'm going to go with Maybe (I'm indecisive) because I definitely think there needs to be a change, but this isn't quite right yet. It's a step on the right track
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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by MannyJabrielle on Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:08 pm

So, the system would work almost like a hybrid of sorcerer and cleric spell casting? Casts per day sorcerer style, selectable any and all spells within the caster's range cleric style?

On one hand, I can see that system being more favorable for epic casters who spend just the one feat. Currently, one epic spell feat gets you one epic spell at 1 use a day. With this idea, you get all the spells, but at once use a day, which is a huge tactical advantage.

On the other hand, it can work out less favorably for epic casters in the long-term. Being able to belt out 6 hellballs in a row would be a scary thing, especially with the 26+modifier DC, but it would be at the expense of the the DCs of the bulk of the caster's other spells, as that's several feats not going to great int/cha/wis or spell focus feats.

Two uses per feat would perhaps be more desirable, and effectively doubles the number of epic spells one can cast currently, but with making all spells available it somehow seems to me to be not quite as rewarding.... Sudden array of new and powerful spells without too much invested into earning all of them relatively speaking.

Perhaps.... Working on both Dave's mention of tying in spell craft to epic cast and the idea of splitting the spells available at the 21st and 31st levels, split the spells into similar groups, with uses per day based on spellcraft skill.

Using the current epic spells as an example, one feat for the summoning epics (Dragonknight and mummy dust), one for feat for the defensive spells (warding and epic armor), and one for the blow you to hell spells (hellball greater ruin)... and then 3 more feats for the greater versions. Your uses per day would be determined by your spellcraft score... say, spellcraft/10. Take the greater epic guard spells feat, and you double your uses per day, based on spellcraft still.

So for example, Mage A has 30 spell craft, and has taken the epic guards feat, epic blowstuffup feat, and greater blowstuffup feat. He could cast 3 of the epic guard spells,and 6 epic hellballs/greater ruins.

You could add in the new spells such as that Devastation spell to the feat group they best apply too (epic blowyoutohell feat for devastation for example).

Another slant too is, instead of using spellcraft for uses per day, tie it into the ability modifier. Spellcraft is most logical, but I'm thinking too that might give epic wizards a very large edge over clerics, druis and sorcerers, as the epic wizard will have far higher intelligence, and thus higher spell craft score... and it's epic magic, for all four caster classes, not epic wizard spells which sorcerers, druids and clerics get a lesser version of.

*edit* And a thought... I can't remember if it's possible with scripting, but if the spellcraft check could be made for base ranks, as like tumble for AC, then the system would be equal for all the caster classes, making my last point moot
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Post by sevenar on Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:13 pm

manny = win. really like the idea, i'm at work right now so i'll think about it more when i get home xD
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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by daveyeisley on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:48 am

I agree, I like manny's idea.
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Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System? Empty Re: Closed Poll: Overhaul Epic Spell System?

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:42 pm

Poll closed, topic still open.

Oh, and the two purely offensive epic spells (hellball and greater ruin), can now be used twice per day.

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Post by daveyeisley on Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:32 am

I would relevel to change feats around for that... but I also want to take item creation feats and last I checked they werent available to Crid at level up Sad
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