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Archery/Ranged Combat Improvements.

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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:53 pm

Some suggestions for archery improvements:

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Feats
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Another thread, suggestion for extending feat chains was made, including adding Many-Shot to the archery chain (point blank shot->rapid shot-> many shot). That would be a great suggestion to be worked out more here.

Combat Archery or Defensive Archer... one of these would be great for archers to buy.

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Non-Magical Fletching
=================

Non-caster archers shoudln't be able to fletch arrows of magical fireball DOOM!(tm), but it would be great for them to fletch something better than plain old no-property arrows.

Tied into the "ammo recovery" suggestion below, fletchers could be very fun.

================================

Damage - One disadvantage of an archery fighter over a melee fighter.... damage. Compare two 40th level fighters one archer, one meleer, with base gear findable in-game. The meleer does more damage per hit. Add in considerations such as a 3rd character, a wizard, with buffing spells for his two fighter friends... the gap in damage output increases. Add in crystals, the damage gap increases (the meleer has double the crit range). Add in in-game DM upgrades, the gap widens even further. Add in yet again... voucher weapons... the gap widens even further.

The one desirable property the archer can go after, Mighty, can help him match the fighter for the STR bonus damage alone, however, it requires double the investment, as the archer will need not just DEX to match the attack bonus, but also STR to benefit from the property.

So....

To help close this gap, I suggest the following:

Everfull quivers/bags/boxes - Allow additional crystals to be used on these items to increase the elemental damages. Add in an additional 5 fire crystals, your 1d4 fire damage on the quiver/bag/box goes up to 1d6.

Also allow an investment of BoMs to add +5 peircing damage to the arrows. Same calculation as for melee weapons, +10 BoM per +1 damage. This requires essentially 100 BoMs for the archer to achieve the same effect a meleer gets for his 50 BoMs... but it's better than nothing, TBH.

Tweak the ranged weapons to accept the keen property. A "keened" bow would be better balanced, allowing for more accurate shots, IOW, better chance of landing critical hits. This investment is on par with the melee weapons. BTW, "Keen" can be added non-slashing weapons, so the property name "keen" is misleading and should not really be used to explain why ranged weapons can't have their crit ranged increased.

DM upgrades - Allow for greater than +4 mighty. I would say upwards of +10. Undoubtedly the gathering lists for such will not be cheap, and the player not only has to invest into the property, but would also require the 30 STR to actually gain the benefit of that +10 mighty... as mentioned above... it's an double investment simply to match what a meleer can do.




Some more archery suggestions....

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Ranged Ammo Recovery.
===================
The biggest problem with NWN vs PnP...

In PnP, you fire off your 10 fire arrows at a target. You kill the target. You then go over and retrieve your arrows from the corpse. There's a slight chance one or two of the arrows will be damaged or outright broken, but for the most part... those 25 magical arrows you got are going to last a good long while.

In NWN... you fire off those same 10 magical arrows, and they're gone forever. 0% chance of recovery.

So... tweak the game so the arrows are recoverable from corpses. I've seen several modules on the vault that accomplish this.

This won't make "voucher arrows" a smart choice still, even with a 100% recovery rate (missed shots will still be gone), but it will make special arrows found in-game THAT much more desirable, and lessen the absolute need for an archer to have an everfull quiver. Balance won't be an issue since an archer will STILL need to put in far more investment (the meleer needs just one set of crystals for his mace of mauling, the archer will need a set of crystals for every single stack of arrows, and over the long term, those stacks will be lost and need to be replaced).



==================================
Down with the Elf/Half Elf Archery Monopoly.
==================================

Arcane Archers are a great class for archers. Namely because of the "Enchant Arrow" feats. Any arrow they fire is considered as having a +X enhancement, up to +15 for 30 AA. This stacks with the attack bonus on a bow, so a 30 AA can have a +20 to the attack, and a +15 to damage.

But this is only an option for elves and half-elves.

So suggestion?

Some new PrCs. Not necessarily "copying" the AA benefits, but PrCs that offer something unique for other non-elven races. Such as....

Hafling Slinger... a hafling PrC that focuses on slings and darts. Any bullet the slinger fires, or dart weapon they use has an increased critical range, as well as a scaling attack bonus progression.

Orc Hailer... Orcs who concentrate on their Bokrams (or whever the exact spelling of the word is!) have a scaling +X mighty property placed on any bow they use as a temp property. They are also able to fletch acid arrows without having to be finger waggling ninnies in robes.

Dwarven Axe Hurler... Give the shorties something to do with those throwing axes.

Rough ideas... but a start.


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Last edited by The Amethyst Dragon on Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added links)
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:13 pm

Wonderful ideas. Any archer who isn't an elf is basically hamstrung by the limitations of the equipment properties they can get and the lack of ability to gain AB and Damage bonuses.

100% ammo consumption is also a problem that, while fixed by the quivers/bags/cases, prevents PCs who use them from being able to get the same kinds of damage bonuses as a melee PC.

+5 damage bonuses for the quivers/bags/cases, along with the ability to add extra crystals to boost the elemental damage would also help a lot with mitigating the damage defecit. 1d10 for the first element boosted, and 1d6 max for any subsequent boosts.

"Keen" bows/launchers would be awesome. If that can't be done, then at least the ability to add "keen" to a quiver/bag/case so all the ammunition it creates is keen would be workable.

For the manyshot feat, the only thing I can think of to make it workable is an activatable "cone area" where the archer makes an attack against each enemy in the cone up to their limit (starting with the closest enemy).

Seeing some PrCs for other races besides Elf/Half-Elf would totally rock, as well.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:20 pm

Good ideas.

I'll see about altering the weapon enhancement spells to work on a target wielding a bow, giving the bow an attack bonus (for magic weapon/greater magic weapon) and the equipped arrows (or bolts if a crossbow, or bullets if a sling) the damage bonuses.

I can see a way of getting that certain flame in that one volcanic place to add a variable to a Selected everfull quiver (or bag, or bolt case) so that anything produced will carry an extra damage bonus.

As far as multiple elemental crystals of enhancement working on everfull containers....definitely possible.

Additional "missile" prestige classes: Definitely possible.

Many-Shot: Yup, this would need to be basically a "spell-like" feat that gets activated to do ranged rolls against the targeted opponent, calculating possible damage for each shot, applying damage effects, and taking away arrows with each use (decrementing the stack in the arrows slot).

The problem comes in constantly calculating the potential damage (getting properties from the bow used, every property from the arrows equipped, any combat-related feats (weapon focus, zen archery, weapon specialization, epic weapon focus, epic specialization, improved critical, overwhelming crit, dev. crit., etc. related to the wielded weapon), ability modifiers (depending on the feats, ability scores, and possible mighty quality of the bows), then making sure everything works together properly to calculate the attack rolls and damage rolls for the archer.

Combat Archery: Can't really be done due to game engine limitations.

Still, good ideas.

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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:33 pm

GMW itself already works on bows and ammunition (+X attack bonus on the launchers, +X damage on the missiles) Double-the casting, but it's there Smile

The spells flame/shock/acidic/frost weapon, darkfire, and deafening clang don't work on archers at all though, on either the launcher or the ammunition.

If I recall, bless weapon does work on archers, at least it will give the ammunition the ability to slay rakshasa on-hit. I don't have a spell-casting paladin to test this out though to see exactly what it does.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:37 pm

Thought about combat archery/frontline archery...

Maybe a work-around? If the AoO's are gonna happen anyway, how about archers with the feat, and a launcher equipped gain a temporary +X dodge bonus. That'll allow it to stack with mobility (which also grants a dodge bonus vs AoO's in general). It won't be of much benefit for some sorta divine archer who's already hitting the +20 dodge cap with haste/divine shield/boots +5... But it'll be good for all the other archer types.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:49 pm

Actually...

It is very apparent that there is a way to tell when an attack is ranged rather than melee, as the Tempest's Protective Gale spell could not be possible otherwise. Mobility only applies to attacks of opportunity.

What if the Combat Archery feat just gave 100% concealment against AoO's as long as the target is in combat and not moving?

I would make potions safer to use, too... but heck, if a dude can get away with shooting arrows in melee, I have to think he can drink a vial of liquid with the same or less risk.... just saying.
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Post by eeriegeek Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:24 pm

I would really like to see alternative missile weapon classes for all the missile and thrown weapon types!

The other counter to AoOs is tumble. A "Combat Archery" feat could be implemented simply as something like +10 tumble, +2 dodge AC with PBS as a prerequisite.

Since later CEP releases, Keen and Enhancement Bonuses among other properties can be applied to missile launchers.

I also second (third ?) additional mighty upgrades.

Some changes like this could really breath new life into archery!
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:00 pm

eeriegeek wrote:The other counter to AoOs is tumble. A "Combat Archery" feat could be implemented simply as something like +10 tumble, +2 dodge AC with PBS as a prerequisite.

I am pretty sure tumble only applies to AoO's provoked by movement. It doesn't help with potions or other AoO's provoked while stationary .
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 01, 2011 12:16 pm

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Many-Shot: Yup, this would need to be basically a "spell-like" feat that gets activated to do ranged rolls against the targeted opponent, calculating possible damage for each shot, applying damage effects, and taking away arrows with each use (decrementing the stack in the arrows slot).

The problem comes in constantly calculating the potential damage (getting properties from the bow used, every property from the arrows equipped, any combat-related feats (weapon focus, zen archery, weapon specialization, epic weapon focus, epic specialization, improved critical, overwhelming crit, dev. crit., etc. related to the wielded weapon), ability modifiers (depending on the feats, ability scores, and possible mighty quality of the bows), then making sure everything works together properly to calculate the attack rolls and damage rolls for the archer.

Thinking on it some more...

The attack rolls wouldn't be the issue (I assume because there is a function for Ranged Attack rolls a la Flying Scimitar of Tusmit?), just the damage. So checking combat feats would not need to be concerned with Weapon Focus, Zen Archery, or Epic Weapon Focus.

Pretty much just Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization(+2)/Epic Weapon Specialization(+6), Sneak Attack (rogue, blackguard, assassin), Favored Enemy, Bane of Enemies, and Enchant Arrow would count. Although this does seem like it could be a tad complicated with all the variants of Favored Enemy, especially if more than one creature type was in the area.

To simplify things more, the ability to score critical hits could be removed. I know it wouldn't be perfect, but its still better than nothing. Better that than letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. This would remove crit related feats from consideration. EDIT: Actually, just allowing for Dev. Crit wouldn't be so bad, because it wouldn't affect damage... just add a save or die.

The only ability mods that would matter would be Strength, and only if the Bow has the Mighty property. I suppose you could check for Divine Might as well, and if present(and active), then add the Charisma mod. I am not sure if the Warblade damage bonuses would also apply in this scenario. EDIT: Champion of Dalix Divine Wrath being active would also come into play.

Again, its not perfect... but it is good. I am hoping others might be able to further improve on this?
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sun May 01, 2011 12:46 pm

Also need a way for the script to get exactly which Mighty property is on the bow, and reduce Str mod in calculation if it's lower than PC's Str mod, and get exact damage bonuses on arrows (and other properties, such as on-hit: kill, which also requires checking against the target's race and saves), figure out a way to check if an enemy is flat-footed (for possible sneak attacks)... There is a lot that the game engine handles just fine in combat that would make from some very complicated (or at least, extensive) scripting.

Oh, and many-shot is all against a single target, so at least it would save having to do all the calculations for every single creature in an area of effect.

The flying scimitar of tusmit is an old script I don't plan on updating anytime soon. It does take into consideration things like the wielder's Str mod (no need to worry about checking for Mighty properties and comparing) and Weapon Specialization, but it does not account for sneak attacks, favored enemies, bane of enemies, or any item properties not original to the sword (such as anything added by crystals or spells or DM upgrades). It doesn't even check for item properties on the sword itself, since I just scripted in the bonus damage it comes with.

I'm not ruling out adding Many-Shot at some time in the future. It's just not near the top of the list for me for ranged attack upgrades/additions.

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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 01, 2011 1:14 pm

I know the PRC (players resource consortium) has feats such as manyshot. Not sure how they do it though since I never really dug into the haks. I'll download it and see how they did it, maybe how they did it can give a bit of inspiration for a better Aenean version.

(They also have feats such as perfect two weapon fighter, which is hawt, and I'm interrested in seeing how they did that actually)
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 01, 2011 1:39 pm

True, I dunno how I got thinking Manyshot was multiple-target.

That would make things much easier, too. Just going to add more thoughts to this while my brain is on it... so they will be here for later if it comes up in the future.

For the Mighty/Str mod part... it would probly be best to check for Mighty before checking strength so that (if the script can actually get the value of the Mighty, if any) you can use the Mighty bonus value as a "cap" on the Str mod. If no Mighty, then Str is irrelevant.

I believe there are only 12 damage types possible. Acid, Fire, Shock, Frost, Sonic, Piercing, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Positive, Negative, Magical, Divine.

For OnHits, I think the most likely, relevant ones would be the AA arrows and Kill, Blindness, Silence, and Mord's.

For the Sneak-Attacks/Flat-footed, I think one less-than-perfect way to do it would be to only allow sneak attacks on targets who are not in combat already. I am not sure if there is a way to return if the target is in combat or not, though, but I think there is, due to how Healer's Kits do not work on targets who are in combat. You can't flank with a bow, anyways... so the only times an in-combat target would be 'sneakable' would be if they were already disabled (denied dex bonus to AC) somehow.

I suppose you could check for Uncanny Dodge and Blind-Fight, and if not present, then check for those conditions on the target (Prone/Knockdown, Stunned, Entangled, Asleep, Held/Paralyzed, Blinded). Only Blindness would be removed from the list if Blind-Fight is present.
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Post by Christopher Robin R2 Sun May 01, 2011 6:10 pm

Personally, I'm most interested in some sort of Combat Archery thing, because have you ever tried to play an archer solo? You pretty much have to have a henchman and a backup melee weapon whenever someone gets close, or you'll get pwned. And enemies have a disturbing habit of spawning close range... well, they did in other spawning systems.

The closest thing I ever had to a archer was a druid using Zen Archery while hiding behind my bear companion and my summons. (Up until level 5, when I got Wildshape, anyway). Everyone thought I was a ranger, ha.

Ranged attacks only work if you've got someone (summon/party, whatever) to keep the enemy from eating your face.
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 01, 2011 6:13 pm

Christopher Robin R2 wrote:Personally, I'm most interested in some sort of Combat Archery thing, because have you ever tried to play an archer solo? You pretty much have to have a henchman and a backup melee weapon whenever someone gets close, or you'll get pwned. And enemies have a disturbing habit of spawning close range... well, they did in other spawning systems.

The closest thing I ever had to a archer was a druid using Zen Archery while hiding behind my bear companion and my summons. (Up until level 5, when I got Wildshape, anyway). Everyone thought I was a ranger, ha.

Ranged attacks only work if you've got someone (summon/party, whatever) to keep the enemy from eating your face.

I agree with your points.

There are ways to make an archer work, but they all involve finding ways to prevent the enemy from closing to melee.

God forbid if your Archer gets surrounded, especially by sneak-attackers. Good night.
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Post by RustyDios Sun May 01, 2011 7:49 pm

.. All archers should carry around a little "pocket construction kit"... ye know one of those mystical devices that can put up an archery tower wherever ye happen to be... works well enough for the Fort Morth Orcs, sat atop their towers .... ..well for a couple of rounds anyway, whilst the meatshield armygrunts get splatted beneath them.... ...

What do you mean those portable archery towers don't exist ? .. Oh, yeah... um forget I said anything ... *RustyDios : whistles delusionally and continues on his merry way* ...
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Post by Amethyst347 Mon May 02, 2011 8:03 am

I totally want a magical archery tower kit. bounce

And I really wish there were a better way for archers to get Dev Crit on a bow. That would definitely be awesome.
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Post by eeriegeek Mon May 02, 2011 12:32 pm

*sigh* Unfortunately the archery towers are tiles in the tileset that have an elevated walkmesh. I don't know of a way to dynamically change the walkmesh to allow an elevated position on the z-axis. Perhaps The Amethyst Dragon has a trick up his sleeve. Idea
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Mon May 02, 2011 1:12 pm

eeriegeek wrote:*sigh* Unfortunately the archery towers are tiles in the tileset that have an elevated walkmesh. I don't know of a way to dynamically change the walkmesh to allow an elevated position on the z-axis. Perhaps Archery/Ranged Combat Improvements. 787378 has a trick up his sleeve. Idea
Nope, not for this.

Find/custom design an item that creates barrier spells, place them in a square around you, and fire away from safety?

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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 02, 2011 3:21 pm

Or maybe this suggestion could work too Smile
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Post by Elhanan Mon May 02, 2011 5:57 pm

I am all for Archery improvements., as most of my warriors also use a longbow.

The only initial suggestion that may not need to be pursued is arrow recovery. Ammo would seem to be better managed via price to simulate partial recovery in NWN rather than actually having it.

As for additional suggestions, as with HiPS, it is my contention that there are many abilities within the gane that should have been Feats. If one can, let the AA abilities minus any any deemed Elf Only be made open to all races; perhaps limiting bonuses since no PrC is chosen (eg; only +5 Enchant Arrow).

And if possible, make a Dev Crit-like feat based on DEX. Personally, I dislike Dev Crit as written, so I suggest adding another Crit multiplier instead, much like a Weapon Master (ie; increase x3 to x4). Or something sim like adding another 2d6 like Bane of Enemies; Rangers sbility to stack. Things still die faster, and melee gets a bonus with ST vs Death for meeting their opponents face to face.

Interested to see what occurs while I watch from the sidelines.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 02, 2011 6:15 pm

One reason I like the idea about arrow recovery is it makes it much more viable to do up stacks of arrows enhanced with crystals. Not just plain arrows, but also somewhat common elemental arrows (like the acid arrows orcs drop), or even the rare stacks of arrows (which I only keep as "collector" items since they are so rare that using them even in very specific situations is just not viable)

A dex based requirement for ranged overwhelming/devastating critical.... I can did that.

The build would still require 13 str for the cleave/greatcleave, but in Aenea that is VERY achievable.... the DC would still be STR based (as I do believe the mechanics are hard-coded, but I could be wrong), so while the dexers will gain a bonus, their DC's will be lower than STR based critters (min DC 31 vs STR critter's min DC 37)
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 03, 2011 12:37 am

MannyJabrielle wrote:One reason I like the idea about arrow recovery is it makes it much more viable to do up stacks of arrows enhanced with crystals. Not just plain arrows, but also somewhat common elemental arrows (like the acid arrows orcs drop), or even the rare stacks of arrows (which I only keep as "collector" items since they are so rare that using them even in very specific situations is just not viable)

A dex based requirement for ranged overwhelming/devastating critical.... I can did that.

The build would still require 13 str for the cleave/greatcleave, but in Aenea that is VERY achievable.... the DC would still be STR based (as I do believe the mechanics are hard-coded, but I could be wrong), so while the dexers will gain a bonus, their DC's will be lower than STR based critters (min DC 31 vs STR critter's min DC 37)

I guess I do not understand. Currently I have a few PC's that have Everfull quivers with full set of crystals. Are you wanting to do the same thing with single bundles? If so, why not see if Everfull quivers can be upgraded with other types of magical arrows, rather than make a new system to recover arrows.

And I do not want any ST vs Death on Dev Crir; currently with STR or with DEX. Personally I hate it as is; way overpowered. I much would rather see greater damage appear to fell my opponents rather than gain a feat which would make Arrow of Death obsolete.

Other than these, I have little to add. Archers need a boost, but it will be the current players and staff on the ground making the observations and calls on fairness of play.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 03, 2011 2:20 am

Because everful quivers are restriced to the base arrow + crystals. There are some really nice arrows to be found. I found a stack of 12 the other day with something like 2d8 bludgeoning bonus damage, and bonus ranged damage type bludgeoning...

As things are now.... I could use those arrows, sure. But they'd be gone in 2 rounds... not even a full two rounds.

IOW, they're a collector item. They serve no practical purpose other than hogging up a module resource.

If ranged recovery was done (And it's really not that difficult, i've seen several modules that do it. Kill a critter, go over to it's remains, grab it's treasure, and your arrows will be in it's loot as well, just pick them back up).... that stack of 12 arrows has a much higher value. You can use them, and recover them, use them again. You'll lose them over time, from rolling a 1 (automiss) and the arrow just flying off to who knows where....

But that'd be over time... not 12 seconds.

And yeah, as nice as the quivers are (I still remember playing Angelica as an AA before these were around....), I would like to see them not be a virtual "necessity" for archers.

And as for the dev crit...

You take away the saving throw and make it straight damage, it'd be more powerful. You can pass saving throws, with all it's oddities (fail on a 1 even if the result is greater than the DC, or pass on a 20 even if the result is not enough). Straight up damage... no way to mitigate it other than super high damage resistance/reduction.

Scimitar, for example. 1d6 base damage, X2 multiplier. Dev crit requires 25 STR, so that's a bare minimum of 1d6 + 7 damage. Such a characer is likely to have a lot of strength enhancement gear, if not the maxed out +12... so 1d6 + 13 damage. Overwhelming crit adds 2d6 on top of the normal crit damage...

2d6+26 + 2d6.... that alone is 28-50 damage for an ordinary scimitar. Add in +5 enhancement bonus on the weapon, that jumps up to 38-60 damage. Add on the crystals, that's 48-100 damage.

Put that in the hands of a weapon master.... 78-150 damage.

That already is a huge amount of damage. Damage resistances/immunities can mitigate that, sure, but with a few notable exceptions, the average baddie in Aenea does not have the same loaded out immunities/resistances PCs enjoy. There's a few that resistant or even immune to a single element... some have DR (99% of which can be bypassed with the +5 enhancement), but that's about the limit.

Tack on another multiplier... 100-248 damage on a crit.

Sure, no saving throw, but not too many baddies in Aenea have that much HP anyhow.

Consider NPC vs PC... such as say, Gron, one of the only 3 baddies in Aenea who have dev crit. He can dish out 40 to 73 damage on a regular hit. Great axes have a base multiplier of X3.... It's difficult enough surving round of regular hits, much less a round that can include crits doing triple the damage.... put in another multiplier on top of that.... that's the same as rolling a 1 with the current dev crit, 100% guaranteed roll of 1.

With the saving throw, you have a chance to survive.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Tue May 03, 2011 2:16 pm

After the next module update, DMs (and the DM-possessed dwarf and Maker) will be able to put up to Mighty +20 on a shortbow, longbow, or sling.

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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 03, 2011 3:11 pm

wooohoooo!

(and omg, that's gonna be one hell of a gathering list for the maker or dwarf!)
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Post by Elhanan Wed May 04, 2011 3:06 am

Idea: What about an Epic Feat for DEX to be also used as STR for damage; maybe for a predetermined length of time if Permancy is deemed too powerful? Weapon Finnesse as a prereq sounds good, too.

Archers could benefit, but so could Monks, Rogues, etc
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Post by A_Vagabond Wed May 04, 2011 6:59 am

I have to admit, dex for str for damage doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me. You're shooting with a bow from a distance, the damage dealt has to do with the tension on the bow, which is where mighty factors in. A dextrous archer wouldn't necessarily be particularly strong, so how would that translate into damage dealt?

This is not aiming, as that relates to AB, hitting high AC, crits, etc. That's already factored into the equation. This is pure, raw damage...this is why finesse only affects AB and not damage dealt. Seems completely parallel to me...

As I recall, there was a ruleset someplace that didn't allow you to even use a bow unless you had a str modifier that was as high as the mighty, in order to demonstrate that the bow had a tighter draw. More damage, but harder to pull the string, to the point that a weakling couldn't even draw it back. NWN doesn't do this, but that rule was in PnP at some time.
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Post by Elhanan Wed May 04, 2011 8:01 am

A_Vagabond wrote:I have to admit, dex for str for damage doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me. You're shooting with a bow from a distance, the damage dealt has to do with the tension on the bow, which is where mighty factors in. A dextrous archer wouldn't necessarily be particularly strong, so how would that translate into damage dealt?

This is not aiming, as that relates to AB, hitting high AC, crits, etc. That's already factored into the equation. This is pure, raw damage...this is why finesse only affects AB and not damage dealt. Seems completely parallel to me...

As I recall, there was a ruleset someplace that didn't allow you to even use a bow unless you had a str modifier that was as high as the mighty, in order to demonstrate that the bow had a tighter draw. More damage, but harder to pull the string, to the point that a weakling couldn't even draw it back. NWN doesn't do this, but that rule was in PnP at some time.

Much like Crits, a well placed shot can hit vital areas that would yield greater dmg to the target. While most would seem to be peppering the upper torso, a higher trained DEX specialist may be hitting the heart, head and eyes, etc.

But explanations aside, the greatest reason why the change should NOT be made if it overpowers DEX; reason I suggested a time restriction IF this is found to be the case. I will let the trained pros on sight deliberate and test to see if this could be viable.
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Post by daveyeisley Wed May 04, 2011 10:32 am

I dont think it would even be possible to make a feat that would alter the way the combat engine handles bonus damage on ranged weapons.

While a feat that gave a round or two of boosted damage based on Dex mod would be nifty, I am thinking it would not be doable.

A "Damage Increase" effect could be calulated and applied, but that would be overpowered because it would bypass immunities and resistances for a common, base, physical damage type. Plus, the bow could probably be unequipped and the damage increase would then affect another weapon, or even unarmed attacks.
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Post by A_Vagabond Wed May 04, 2011 10:59 am

Elhanan wrote:
Much like Crits, a well placed shot can hit vital areas that would yield greater dmg to the target. While most would seem to be peppering the upper torso, a higher trained DEX specialist may be hitting the heart, head and eyes, etc.

My thinking is that this is exactly what a bow crit entails: hitting the heart, head, eyes, etc. You can't substitute str for dex when shooting a bow; only the dex specialist has the skills to make those shots on a more regular basis. This is what confirming a crit means, and this is why a high dexxer gets more crits than the meatshield who's relying on natural 20's to hit.
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Post by daveyeisley Wed May 04, 2011 5:20 pm

A_Vagabond wrote:
Elhanan wrote:
Much like Crits, a well placed shot can hit vital areas that would yield greater dmg to the target. While most would seem to be peppering the upper torso, a higher trained DEX specialist may be hitting the heart, head and eyes, etc.

My thinking is that this is exactly what a bow crit entails: hitting the heart, head, eyes, etc. You can't substitute str for dex when shooting a bow; only the dex specialist has the skills to make those shots on a more regular basis. This is what confirming a crit means, and this is why a high dexxer gets more crits than the meatshield who's relying on natural 20's to hit.

I just had a bit of a thought on this. It would be a variant of the "Called Shot" feat, that, rather than inflicting penalties on the victim, would inflict more damage. The mechanics could be designed so that greater dex would equate to higher chance of success. With the basic Ranged attack rolls, Dex already affects the AB, so... this could really be as simlpe as a sort of "Power Attack" for Bows... except its not a Power Attack, it would be extremely Focused Aim.

Much like Called Shot, the feat could be activated (except it would apply on a full-round basis rather than a single attack), then a penalty would be applied to attack rolls (simulating the difficulty of specifically targeting smaller vulnerable spots on a larger target), and a bonus to damage could be applied to the equipped ammunition. If the attack roll hits, boom, extra damage.



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Post by Elhanan Wed May 04, 2011 6:05 pm

daveyeisley wrote:I dont think it would even be possible to make a feat that would alter the way the combat engine handles bonus damage on ranged weapons.

While a feat that gave a round or two of boosted damage based on Dex mod would be nifty, I am thinking it would not be doable.

A "Damage Increase" effect could be calulated and applied, but that would be overpowered because it would bypass immunities and resistances for a common, base, physical damage type. Plus, the bow could probably be unequipped and the damage increase would then affect another weapon, or even unarmed attacks.

Could it be made to add another 2d6 like BoE or Overwhelming Crit that stacks?
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Post by A_Vagabond Wed May 04, 2011 7:35 pm

daveyeisley wrote:
A_Vagabond wrote:
Elhanan wrote:
Much like Crits, a well placed shot can hit vital areas that would yield greater dmg to the target. While most would seem to be peppering the upper torso, a higher trained DEX specialist may be hitting the heart, head and eyes, etc.

My thinking is that this is exactly what a bow crit entails: hitting the heart, head, eyes, etc. You can't substitute str for dex when shooting a bow; only the dex specialist has the skills to make those shots on a more regular basis. This is what confirming a crit means, and this is why a high dexxer gets more crits than the meatshield who's relying on natural 20's to hit.

I just had a bit of a thought on this. It would be a variant of the "Called Shot" feat, that, rather than inflicting penalties on the victim, would inflict more damage. The mechanics could be designed so that greater dex would equate to higher chance of success. With the basic Ranged attack rolls, Dex already affects the AB, so... this could really be as simlpe as a sort of "Power Attack" for Bows... except its not a Power Attack, it would be extremely Focused Aim.

Much like Called Shot, the feat could be activated (except it would apply on a full-round basis rather than a single attack), then a penalty would be applied to attack rolls (simulating the difficulty of specifically targeting smaller vulnerable spots on a larger target), and a bonus to damage could be applied to the equipped ammunition. If the attack roll hits, boom, extra damage.


Now this is an awesome idea! Focused Aim, and even Improved Focused Aim. Give it the same +5/-5 as PA and you're done.

Once/round works as a concentration event. Makes sense you can't fire off 5 APR if you're really trying to be careful...
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Post by daveyeisley Wed May 04, 2011 8:05 pm

I was thinking more of it being an instant-use feat with effects that had a 6 second duration. That way you don't lose any actions or attacks when you activate it, and you get one round of attacks with the modifiers.

You could make the duration longer to cut down on button mashing, but then you would also force players to be "locked into" those modifiers.

The script would need to check to make sure a ranged weapon was equipped. Also, it should work with thrown weapons, too, as those can be aimed for weak spots the same way. So, five gear slots to be concerned with, main hand for thrown weapons/bows/crossbows, and the 3 ammunition slots.
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Post by A_Vagabond Wed May 04, 2011 8:34 pm

You'd only need to check the main hand slot for a ranged weapon. Instant feat could work, as a modal switch, like PA. The ammo slots wouldn't need to be checked, it's more just for applying the effect.

This is nifty.
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Post by daveyeisley Wed May 04, 2011 9:11 pm

You would need an if loop to change where the damage bonus is applied in the event that the ranged weapon is not ammunition based, like a dart or throwing axe, or shuriken.
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Post by A_Vagabond Wed May 04, 2011 10:49 pm

Oh, sure. Just a case/select structure would work, using the base item of the weapon in hand to choose a target by equipped slot. If it's an ammo using launcher, it'll just return the proper slot by number, if it's a thrown weapon, it'll return the main hand as the proper slot. Then, apply the effect to whatever slot was returned, and you're good to go with minimal scripting Wink
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