Jump Skill Mechanics Discussion

While I like the jump checks, I think that the "Winged" Subrace - or "Demonspawn" that have wings for that rest period, as well as (possibly) people equipped with the wings of flying, should be able to bypass these checks since they can simply fly over the short chasm or other obstacle. (I mean if you can jump over the chasm, it can't possibly be THAT far of a distance. More than easily covered by the ability to fly.)

Climbing makes more sense not to bypass with flight because of the difficulty to resist and go against gravity's pull, but maybe they culd have reduced falling damage?

I haven't ever checked my skills to be honest, but I've seen some pretty wacky results that I definitely shouldn't be getting.

Just a random thought, does DEX modifier add to your skill as a modifier? (negative included if it's applicable)

My one recommendation for Jump Checks is to have the scripts check carrying capacity (if needs be by using a function to report the modified strength score and calculating the capacity off of that), and then comparing it to weight carried. If the capacity is greater than or equal to the current load, then no penalties should be applied.

Encumbered characters should suffer a penalty only on the difference between base capacity and current load.

I would do it as a relative scale, personally. GetWeight of the PC over modified strength, and then make allowances: say, <25% gets a bonus, >75% gets a small penalty (or none) and anything >100% gets a scaliing penalty.

Or, you could just really make it simple and analog: Take the ratio and multiply the DC by that value (or, conversely, divide the skill level. same result). You'll lower the DC for those carrying less weight and increase it for those with more. Unlike the "you can run just until you hit this point and then you can only walk" system of encumbrance, in this instance one pound won't make a difference, since it's an analog adjustment.

A_Vagabond wrote:I would do it as a relative scale, personally. GetWeight of the PC over modified strength, and then make allowances: say, <25% gets a bonus, >75% gets a small penalty (or none) and anything >100% gets a scaliing penalty.

Or, you could just really make it simple and analog: Take the ratio and multiply the DC by that value (or, conversely, divide the skill level. same result). You'll lower the DC for those carrying less weight and increase it for those with more. Unlike the "you can run just until you hit this point and then you can only walk" system of encumbrance, in this instance one pound won't make a difference, since it's an analog adjustment.

You could do it that way, but the idea is to have the script mathematics/mechanics actually follow the mechanical conventions of PnP. The "threshhold-based" system of encumbrance in PnP is the convention, so I really think it is important for the script calculations to respect that. It will be much easier for players to figure out what the DC should be this way. They will know for sure that if they are not encumbered, there will be no modifier for weight carried. Making it more complex than that would need to add some sort of significant gameplay benefit, and with respect (and I mean that, I am not offering empty platitudes), I don't feel the ratio calculation would be a significant improvement.

If you deviate from PnP conventions, there should always be a really good reason, like a technical issue, or some mechanical/rule/exploit issue being addressed.

Fair enuff

would need some kind of table to translate from modified str to weight allowed; I'm not sure that the encumbered status is something that's directly readable from a script.

That being said, for those who are above the weight allowance, I still think that someone's who has a weight carry of 20 lbs. should get a bigger penalty per pound over than someone who has a capacity of 200 lbs, because it only makes sense that it makes a difference.

Then again, I'm so accustomed to altering the rules to be closer to RL than PnP, so just disregard if it's getting to be too nitpicky.

A_Vagabond wrote:Fair enuff

would need some kind of table to translate from modified str to weight allowed; I'm not sure that the encumbered status is something that's directly readable from a script.

That being said, for those who are above the weight allowance, I still think that someone's who has a weight carry of 20 lbs. should get a bigger penalty per pound over than someone who has a capacity of 200 lbs, because it only makes sense that it makes a difference.

Then again, I'm so accustomed to altering the rules to be closer to RL than PnP, so just disregard if it's getting to be too nitpicky.

Yeah, its the Age Old debate... Game Mechanics vs. Reality.

In my experience, and in my opinion, Fun is more important, and therefore Game Mechanics always wins.

For the Jump check mehcanics, I think some adjustment in the weight carried penalties are in order, such as references in this thread.

Stronger characters would not only be better at jumping regardless of weight, but would also be able to better tolerate carrying extra weight while jumping. The current mechanics don't take a characters carrying capacity into account, they just give a modifier based on strength. The net result being that characters with very high strength still end up with extremely high penalties for carrying a lot of weight, even when that weight does not actually restrict their movement at all (unencumbered).

In PnP there is no penalty at all for weight carried. Most likely this is an abstraction for assuming that a character can somehow unburden themselves before the jump (tossing their pack up ahead of themself, using a tool of some sort to pull their stuff up behind them after they jump, etc). PnP doesnt even take encumbrance into account. Even the PnP encumbrance/carrying rules have nothing mentioned about encumbrance penalties stacking with armor check penalties. it is simply a matter that the worse penalty of the two gets applied as quoted from the first paragraph:

"If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties. "

I for one, would like to see the skill checks follow the PnP rules more closely. Especially with regards to skill synergy bonuses, those nice little +2 bonuses from having 5 or more ranks in a skill that is related to your chosen task.

Excellent! A reference for the skills!

A couple comments of my own, on the class base ranks...

Weapon masters have less base skill than fighters for balance and jump, yet a weapon master requirements are rather dex heavy, which would lead one to believe they're more agile and athletic. They should be at least the same base rank progression as dwarven defenders.

Bards... the class does favor dex somewhat (they dont' wear heavy armor by default, they do get great dex as a epic bonus feat, ect) so I rather see them as having a bit more balance (dancing skillz yo) and jump skills than a cleric, paladin or wizard.

Rangers... i kinda see them as having great climbing and balance skills, on par with their swimming skill. They ARE the ultimate outdoorsmen, climbing trees and mountains, scrambling across tree limbs and logs over ravines...

I noticed in the skill mechanics thread that Reincarnated and Ascended get positive modifiers for the physical skills.

So I was wondering, for balance/climb/jump/swim physical skills and the tradeskills, do their experience level meters get reset back to zero, or not, after Reincarnation or Ascension?

I just looked at the scripts for leveling up, and the background skills are recalculated every time you level up, using current class levels...which means they get "reset" when you reincarnate/ascend.

So if I fire off one of my level 40's relevel scales, all their tradeskills go byebye?

I think there needs to be some check for that, or at the very least a warning about the skills getting reset.  It's not so bad for the easy to retrain skills like alchemy... but gemcutting and farming are a MASSIVE pain to level up.  Gemcutting more so because it's 100% reliant on combat ability and requires massive combat.  There is simply no other way to get uncut gems other than bashing baddies up.

Tradeskills don't get erased during relevel/reincarnation/etc.  Those are different than the "background coded" skills like balance, swim, climb, etc. (which PCs can't really invest in anyway).  Tradeskills probably should for reincarnation/ascension, but I'm not going to bother with changing it.

On a side note... way back when, jump swim and climb used to be actual ranked skills you could points into (I remember because Alastair dumped almost all his initial starting points into those hen I first made him)..... What ever happened to those skills?

MannyJabrielle wrote:On a side note... way back when, jump swim and climb used to be actual ranked skills you could points into (I remember because Alastair dumped almost all his initial starting points into those hen I first made him)..... What ever happened to those skills?

Something kept going wrong, causing crashes for some people and weird issues where the skills sometimes weren't recognized by the scripts.  I ended up dumping them soon after and reverting back to the standard skills, instead background coding them so that they'd work properly (and leaving PCs with more skill points to spend on other skills).