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Magebreaker Empty Magebreaker

Post by daveyeisley Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:11 pm

So, from chatting with the player of a Magebreaker - it seems the limitations of the class definitely present a good challenge as advertised.

One thing that does stand out as a major drawback, and thematically seems like Magebreakers would have an answer - Damage Shields like Fire Shield and Acid Sheathe. Because Magebreakers have practically no ability to gain elemental resistances (and even then these spells would slaughter them), I think powerful Magebreakers should have an ability that can dispel them.

Maybe in the upper levels, a Magebreaker's equipped weapon could gain an OnHit:Lesser Spell breach, so that the breachable damage sgields would not present an insurmountable problem. Sure the Magebreaker has to accept a hit from the shield, but then they should be able to breach it. Makes thematic sense for the class too, am I right?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:31 pm

Kind of piggy-backing off this, since Magebreakers can apparently use weapons with Materials, can those be added to the craftable items for weaponsmithing etc? Magebreakers with cold iron blades just makes sense to me.

To expand on the previous selection: Maybe a magebreaker can select an element to become immune to? Chosen at level one, and they get 10% damage immunity to that element per level. Not exactly on-hit spell breach, but still nice.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by Eric of Atrophy Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 am

All these ideas sound legit, yo! I'd see no reason why the Magebreaker couldn't have both the on hit lesser spell breach and the level-incremental elemental resistance. I mean, from what I understand, the class isn't loaded with options that make it ridiculously powerful ...
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:44 am

Since much of elemental damage does have a magical component to it (how else does frost stick to a blade, or electricity?) it could also manifest as increasing resistance to all elements, but obviously not up to 100%. Fits in a bit with the 3rd level "resists anything that stops movement" is "resists the damage from the elements" by force of will. Tough skin, you know? Maybe still utilizing damage immunity to the elements, but maybe staggered 10% every other level.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:28 pm

I'd suggest, having gotten more time on mine, that either the damage they add to weapons be upped (an additional +1 per level?), or they're allowed to use the ostensibly alchemical elemental crystals. (and the subsequent weapons produced with them)

Some way to give them access to fire or acid, damage, so a level 40 magebreaker isn't stomped out by a troll.
Edit: also, fear immunity of some kind would be just delightful, since so many mages here also have fear auras.

Vorshlag, for instance, has both a fear aura and a paralyzation bolt, both of which pretty much kills a mageslayer.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:09 pm

Was going to point out the troll issue as well -- absolutely nothing a MB can do to kill a troll.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by daveyeisley Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:26 pm

Well, I agree trolls are a problem...

But to be fair, I've done them with just alchemist fire, or acid flasks/bombs. I'm pretty sure I remember The Amethyst Dragon saying something about alchemical substances being exempt from the grasp thing... not sure it its live yet, though.

I think traps might also work....
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:59 am

Last time I tried, alchemist's fire et al were subject to magic stripping. I love the class, I do, but there's a couple improvements I'd make, in general:

Some kind of access to fire or acid damage, some kind of immunity to acid sheathe and related, real FoM, and at the very least fear immunity, in not mind immunity totally.

Each of these: Troll killing, realistic mage killing ability, and immunity to will-based disables (what kills meleers/mundanes) is basically required for these guys to function in their mage-killing job/not needing a mage to buff them.  I'd make the argument for mind immunity because per the lore here, even psionics is just magic.

Otherwise, everything seems to work fine, but without those additions a Mystara cleric is probably a better fighter of mages.

Last edit, I swear: If the concept of just giving that stuff to them makes people uncomfortable, maybe have them be feats:
Forsaker: Requires 10 magebreaker, renders them immune to mind affecting powers and spells.

Occult Slayer: Requires 8 magebreaker, iron will. The Magebreaker is an anathema to magical beings, destroying their enchantments through touch, extended through his weapons. Gains lesser spell breach on hit on weapons and gloves.

etc
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by Furtalic Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:48 pm

Actually, all of the things you are mentioning seem to be inherent weaknesses in the class. Since every class has weaknesses, isn't this just a part of selecting a specific, focused specialty? You could give them immunity to Fear or Mind Affecting, but then, don't they already have outstanding SR? And as for having problems fighting trolls, every class has this issue unless they can get hold of fire/acid. If the limitations of the class create problems, this is something that should be considered in choosing this specialty...and ultimately, in accepting that such extreme immunities and resistances (High SR regardless of race, permanent Freedom, Immunity to Level/Stat loss...which ultimately makes them immune to poisons and diseases as well since they cannot be debilitated by them, and natural Regeneration, plus attack bonuses superior to those gained by enchanted weaponry) should have a downside which might not be capable of being overcome. To put it simply, choosing to be a MageBreaker, a person who foregoes ALL magic in a world of inherent magic, will have a downside.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:32 pm

I think the issue is, while trolls are a problem for all classes until they get fire/acid damage somehow, mage breakers *can't* overcome this like all other classes (even non-magical types) due to the mechanics stripping away special properties on all items unless specifically excluded, not just "magical" properties.  That's not so much a balance issue as it is a nwn engine mechanics issue, as the game engine doesn't inherently know what special properties are "magical" and which aren't.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:35 pm

Oh, sure, it has a downside, but being immune to and a destroyer of magical things implies, you know. Being immune to and a destroyer of magical things.

The freedom of movement they get is either broken or not actual FoM, because it doesn't function as FoM, but as an immunity to entangle.

The immunity to mind spells is due to the fact that most of the 'magical' enemies here: dracoliches, mind flayers, undead, demons etc have magical fear auras that aren't actually subject to SR. It's a gap in the classes abilities, not a 'down side' as I see it.

Downsides to this class: They're thematic but terrible. Your ac is going to be bad, your damage is going to be bad (Base strength+weapon damage+2d6 is pretty much nothing, when people have +5, keen, 2d6 magic damage and 1d6 of every element and more from custom weapons) and you'll only ever do your base strength+rage+2d6 and weapon, because you can't upgrade yours. The +10 AB is good for breaking through DR spells (But, I've found, not the inherent DR a lot of creatures have) and 5 more weapon AB on average is still 1 AB worse than a character with the same BaB and strength gear. Your ac is never going to be anything more than base+tumble+base dex bonus+basic armor and Maybe class bonuses with the right build set up.

Pretty much what Magebreaker has going for it is immunity to non-mind status effects (which can be replicated with custom items, the dwarf/maker crafting, and items players can make), and spell resistance. (which can be replicated by monks, drow, demonspawn, or just a class with high saves) and little else. Anything that doesn't require a spell resistance check is going to annihilate them, because their saves are abysmal, and they have little to no offense or defense offered. It's not a terrible class but saying the things that are holding it back from being useable is a 'downside' is a bit silly. If their 'thing' is immunity to magic, make it immunity to magic, not 'some' magic.

tl;dr: Until a few things are changed to not so much beef them up as fix them, they're basically bad barbarians that can't get fireballed.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by daveyeisley Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:49 pm

I will keep pondering the issue, but right now I feel like there isn't a way to make Magebreaker mechanics reasonably align with their thematics without also making them mechanically overpowered...
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:02 pm

Well, I feel like the downside to being good against mages is the fact that you'll have, like..
10+1 dex+8 tumble+8 fullplate ac, maybe 3 more with a shield so.. 27-30 AC, maximum, at level 40, and a decent amount less AB and damage than a normal barb.

So basically you can tank FoDs and missile storms, but you're no good against trash mobs and melee bosses. Personally, seems like a sensible tradeoff, but idk. Do alterations to them as epic feats? I mean, compare a possible magebreaker epic feat to epic magic in general, for instance.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:24 pm

With such limited magic options for AC, I would do a dex-monster MB, with fighter levels to get as many combat related feats as possible, leaving as many general feats as possible for great-dex.

Human with 18 starting dex, +10 from level ups, +6 from great dex VI, +20 from XP store investments, 54 dex right there for +22 AC right there (10+22+8=40, 42 with the armorskin feat.... *if* tomes work for mage breakers, take 7 great dex, +5 book, 60 dex for a AC total of 45, 50 with expertise, 55 with imp.expertise, 56 vs current target with dodge feat.  That's a huge investment, but pretty good for no magic gear at all.  *If* Monks can become MB's..... monk AC+wis bonus+dex bonus, and you got AC that can rival a fully buffed mage like Crideas or Aurora and all without any magic what so ever.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by Elhanan Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:08 pm

Would this make a decent Shifter, if the Druidic spells could be sacrificed?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:44 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:With such limited magic options for AC, I would do a dex-monster MB, with fighter levels to get as many combat related feats as possible, leaving as many general feats as possible for great-dex.

Human with 18 starting dex, +10 from level ups, +6 from great dex VI, +20 from XP store investments, 54 dex right there for +22 AC right there (10+22+8=40, 42 with the armorskin feat.... *if* tomes work for mage breakers, take 7 great dex, +5 book, 60 dex for a AC total of 45, 50 with expertise, 55 with imp.expertise, 56 vs current target with dodge feat.  That's a huge investment, but pretty good for no magic gear at all.  *If* Monks can become MB's..... monk AC+wis bonus+dex bonus, and you got AC that can rival a fully buffed mage like Crideas or Aurora and all without any magic what so ever.
Ruins your damage potential, though. I'm ~pretty sure~ monks can be mage breakers, but you'd Also need to do about the same level of tom-foolery to boost your strength score so you aren't trying to kill mages with a rapier and base 2d6 damage.

Although, a dex rogue magebreaker might be interesting.

Edit: Having just checked, tomes do not work for magebreakers.
Elhanan wrote:Would this make a decent Shifter, if the Druidic spells could be sacrificed?
You need barb levels, so it'd be impossible, sadly.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:14 pm

Still, 3 less AC without the tome and that extra great dex feat, could still be decently high non-magic buffed AC.

Now that I think about it... *if* warblades can mix with mage-breakers, those two classes would work VERY well together, although it would require even more stat-spreading.  Warblade abilities grant +1 per WB level to AC and damage (applied to the weapon as a temp property) +cha modifier.  Even with minimal charisma, warblade would still offer the mage breaker +5 AC/damage.... and they thematically fit eachother (warblades got a nice stunning "shout" ability as well, they're all about busting up stuff in melee).  It's just a question of if WB's can be magebreakers and if their abilities are considered "magical" (don't think they are myself, but that's up to The Amethyst Dragon).

And a high dex/low STR build can be a pain sometimes with the damage output, but I generally find no problem with it (most of my characters are dex-based anyway.... even my high STR ones with dev crit are more "dex" oriented... I love me my high ACs).  If you got the AC to dance... IMO so what if it takes you 10 minutes to kill something a high STR character could kill in 2 minutes?  If the high STR doesn't have the AC, those two minutes are still plenty of time to get an express ticket to the greathall Wink
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:28 pm

No warblade, sadly. There's a list of classes MBs can't be here: https://aenea.aforumfree.com/t5757-magebreaker-qs#42269

The way I'd see a dex build working is fully embracing the fact that you have to attrition everything, do something like 5 barb/10 magebreaker/25 rogue with e-dodge but it doesn't fix the other problems, sadly.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:55 am

Tollkeeper would give the same +5 AC as warblade.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:40 am

Ah, and +5 damage if their other stuff stacks, right? You'd need dual wielding feats but whatever, not hard.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:03 pm

DerusTal wrote:Ah, and +5 damage if their other stuff stacks, right? You'd need dual wielding feats but whatever, not hard.

I've not yet used a quarterstaff, but don't you get at least one or two freebie dual-wield feats on the staff itself? Can anyone clarify?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:13 pm

You do not, I'm afraid.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:08 pm

Yes, you do.  Quarter staffs get a temporary TWF property when equipped (it's done as an applied temp property rather than placing the feat on the staff regularly as not to jack up the price of even a plain q-staff.

My question is does MB magic stripping zap temp properties applied to items too?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by RustyDios Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:11 pm

How about a Brb/MageBreaker/IronHeart dex based build?... would that work out well ?
You should end up with good AC, Immunities, Rage, and SR....

Throw in either StoneBlooded Dwarf or Wolfblood (human or Half-orc) for some DR, and other minor benefits and I'm starting to form an idea for a build that might work rather well...

Toss in the Warhulk semi-class to boost your str/damage output...

I can see a Twin-Full-Moon Raging Channelling Wolfblood Half-Orc Barbarian/ Magebreaker/ Ironheart / Warhulk being able to dish out a decent bit of damage with his weapon, whilst being rather resistant to damage (mundane or magical)....

Throw in some Turtle Animal Totem maybe, and Extended/Greater/Thunderous rage feats... and some Creature Lore for extra goodies...
I could also see the followers of Ragnor (destruction), Dalix (+10 Deflection AC) and oddly Mystara! (Spellblocking) asking for aid via ;;god bless me would likely help/fit the build too ...

The key to this class for me is seeing exactly what you can get with just "passive" class/race abilities, basically ignoring all/anything that you would consider getting an item for or use an item to obtain... You really have to put some thought behind your choices and make everything mesh together...

EDIT:: Just noticed Spellcraft is NOT a class skill for the magebreaker.. I really think it should be for the +1 saving throw .vs spells per 5 ranks benifit, and the "know thy enemy" theme aspect of identifying spells and by the last note on the wiki page would also likely help the Magebreaker with monster skills/effects too....


Last edited by RustyDios on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:38 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:Yes, you do.  Quarter staffs get a temporary TWF property when equipped (it's done as an applied temp property rather than placing the feat on the staff regularly as not to jack up the price of even a plain q-staff.

My question is does MB magic stripping zap temp properties applied to items too?
I guess? When I equipped one a bit ago, it didn't have those.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:23 pm

That really should get added to the "exclude" list for Magebreaker stripping then.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:15 pm

I don't think it does. At least, the armor I've put on always keeps the temp props applied... I don't know why the q-staff didn't get them -- did you examine it when you were holding it in-hand?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by DerusTal Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:22 pm

I did. And yeah, the armor gets the temp properties. Might be my dude specifically, because it works for my non-magebreaker, but not my magebreaker.

Maybe the magebreaker's temp properties breaks it?
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by MannyJabrielle Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:39 pm

A way to find out would be to have another mage-breaker check to see if they wipe the temp property from a q-staff as well.
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Magebreaker Empty Re: Magebreaker

Post by A_Vagabond Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:30 am

The break comes from OnAcquire, not equip. There may, however, be some shenanigans with the scripting that adds the +AB and damage from the MB levels. I've also noted that you need to re-equip items twice to get the props correct. So, I'd suggest equip-unequip-equip and see what you get.

I can't test this, as my MB can't hold a q-staff (small guy, he is).
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