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Not Used: heal spell / harm spell

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Post by solarina Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:58 pm

Ok granted I am 100 % new here but i just read both of these spells are restricted to cleric's of two faiths asis and ragnor. I ama player who has played almost exclusivly cleric builds on other worlds to high level , and I have to wonder if I play a cleric of another faith how am I to keep myself alive let alone my group at high level without the heal spell or greater restoration spell ? Also with both harm and destruction gone as an option what if any offensive power will my cleric have at all ? Being able to whip out one harm spell in a bad senario for me anyway was part of being a cleric , the one spell I could rely on to help out in a bad sitituation.

On a note of praise I do agree and see valid points for restricting mass heal and destruction to the given dietys.

Im not sure what the average damage output on monsters is here but I am going to guess it gets pretty high / sick at high levels so not being a cleric of asis and being limited to just cure critical / cure serious wounds I am betting just wont do the trick or limit me to just casting those spells and hardly any buffs / utility spells at all.

I would like some imput if these assumptions are correct even remotely and maybe revisit heal / harm as open for all while keeping mass heal / destruction as limited.

I was told also by someone who visited this world that there is an inordiant number of clerics of asis and ragnor compared to the other faiths just because of these two spells , that if you add up the clerics of those two faiths that they would out number the clerics of other faiths greatly. That could have been bad info granted but as a player who has played pretty much just clerics I can see this as a major major nerf to the class and limting me to just spaming cure serious wounds / cure critical wounds to the exclusion of all else , making me kind of like an EQ cleric ( they just spam one or two spells over and over all day kind of boring )
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:10 pm

Scrolls.

Now you'll have more greater restorations than you can shake a disembodied beholder eyeball at.

Not sure about harm though, I never paid attention to if those are sold anywhere, nor have I played enough spell-offensive clerics to suggest what would work best in aenea. I've always gone bufftank with clerics. Just not as much variety as sorcs/wizards when it comes to killing magic.
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:33 am

Welcome to you, solarina! If you ever need anything, someone helpful is usually lurking around somewhere (myself included, of course) ... Surprised

As to the clerical questions, I have never played one in NwN, so I will leave the answering to more qualified individuals! Razz

See ya around! Cool


Last edited by Eric of Atrophy on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ... clarification! ...)
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:17 pm

The restrictions on certain spells have to do with the fact that Aenea is based on my pen&paper campaign world. It makes sense to me that the most powerful healing spells are the domain of the priests of the goddess of healing, and the most powerful individually destructive divine spells are the domain of the priests of the god of destruction.

This kind of pulls things closer to P&P D&D, since the gods decide who can cast which spells, and if you feel that you will lean towards certain types of spells, then you'll pick a deity that grants those types of spells.

The deities of Aenea also offer their followers other "benefits" than spells, so you'll find followers of practically all the gods and goddesses wandering around.

Of course, if you build all your cleric characters around heal, you'll want to pick Asis as your patron deity, and if you build your clerics around harm, you'll want Ragnor as your patron. This does tend to force some to adopt alternative strategies when it comes to playing clerics.

Depending on your patron deity, your alignment may also affect whether you can cast spells or not (and if a cleric of Zolaras, your gender also makes a difference).

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Post by solarina Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:27 pm

ah ok well i guess that makes sense , im taking it greater restoration is not taken out for other faiths ? I have not seen mention of that spell in the spells section..
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:41 pm

It should be limited to Asis priests, but there might be a typo in the script that limits spells. I was planning on changing some of the limited spells anyway, to open a couple of the limited spells to other faiths (but with reduced effects for other clerics to reflect the game world).

So, feel free to enjoy greater restoration as-is for now. Smile

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Post by Kerrick Merwynne Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:21 am

Welcome!! Smile

And to answer another part of your question... I can't speak for clerics of Ragnor (I haven't met any myself), but as for clerics of Asis, I think (and I could be wrong here) that I am the only person who plays one as a main character. I've only met one other during my time in Aenea and it was someone's secondary character. Either way, I doubt what you heard is really accurate, because there aren't all that many clerics running around so there can't be an overabundance of clerics of those two faiths.

As a level 34 pure cleric of Asis, I can tell you that magical damage output is somewhat limited (except vs. the Undead),though I can still throw Firestorms, Flamestrikes, Hellballs, Greater Ruins, etc.

But from a roleplay perspective, it makes sense to me that the goddess of Healing and Life (who is even known as the Lifebringer) would limit destructive spells as a part of her ethos. I knew it going it, so it hasn't had much of an impact on me as Kaliria has grown. If you are looking to play a combative cleric, look into Ragnor, or Dalix, or Torgat (which is not to say that Clerics of other faiths are not good warriors, but these three deities are all directly involved in that sort of thing to one degree or another). They can all become solid healers with potions, scrolls, and their own inherent spells. If healing is what you really want to be good at, then Asis is the one to follow.

Sorry for the ramble, hope this helps. As a high level cleric player (and an assistant DM) these have been my observations.

Again, welcome! If there is anything we can do to help, ask away.
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Post by solarina Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:26 pm

well you have monsters that hit for like 60 points of damage and only being able to heal 5d8 or whatever doesnt seem like it would keep much of anyone alive in a fight and on one good tank probaly drain every spell you have afterwards to heal em up ( at high levels assuming the only heals one has is the junky cure serious / crital wounds spells )

and now greater restoration is nerfed severaly to the point its healing is useless at high levels save for the removing neg effects aspect. Nice world otherwise but with clerics being so gimped here i doubt I will play or if i do much as all my gold will be going to junk-tastic scrolls to stay alive ( and a post i read by games owner / server owner says only prests of asis can use heal scroll anyway + the cost of them in game would bankrupt me quickly even if i could use them )

basicly the way im seeing this is if i want to heal AT all at any effectiveness im forced to take one diety. By the way you would figure a war god or well any god save maybe the death one would want there priests able to heal themselves to best extent possible.


at least pre nerf on greator restoration it made the cleric option viable , with your choice to remove it as is in nwn ( the way its used on every server ) the cleric class is worthless to play as a main unless you have a gazillion gold / plan on being poor buying scrolls.... myself I had kept playing till the nerf stick came and nerfed greator restoration.... sorry to the folks who also dont like the nerf cause i kinda brought it to the attention of the nerfer lol.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:45 pm

The greater restoration spell was never meant to be a super heal spell (open the toolset and open the "nw_s0_grrestore" script to see the developer's original comments, and check the D&D 3.0 PHB description of the spell).

Gold is plentiful at mid to higher levels here, so tanks can soon easily afford asis potions of full healing (each costs about 3,500 gp), taking the pure healer role off the shoulders of those clerics that don't want it. And now that higher level PC clerics of Asis can actually make those potions (for half the gp value and a little xp), you might find some willing to sell those potions cheaper than the temple does.

As far as after-battle healing and running out of spells, the healer kits work off your Heal skill check, and each can be used 20 times. They can even be used to cure disease and poison with a decent roll. They work well when you are grouped with others, because the warriors themselves can drop some ranks in Heal and help themselves at the same time the healer is working on them. Each of them only costs about 200 gp.

As far as the other gods go (such as war and death), Torgat doesn't really care who wins a battle (as long as there is battle), and Zolaras knows that eventually all come to her, so the timing isn't too important (hence the reason she's also the goddess of the undead).

I see clerics are much more than just wands of heal that walk. They have access to other spells and abilities, they can cast in heavy armor, and they're good at fighting, too. They're also the voices of their respective deities in the lands. The play style can be very different from other NWN games/worlds (where you usually don't pick a patron deity and can take two basically opposing domains like Healing and Death, and every cleric casts heal and harm all the time), so I can understand how you might be uncomfortable with changing styles with the class you play almost exclusively.

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Post by RustyDios Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:21 pm

Hmmm .. yes we all love those Asis Potions of Full healing... .... Hey Rayvensclaw (if ye reading).. how many was it you wanted to buy from the temple?... Enough to force The Amethyst Dragon into adding them in in optional stacks of 10.. I believe... .....

The way I see it clerics of Aenea have way more benefits then just walking around healing people.. the're damn good fighters too.. have a whole host of domain powers based off thier patron and are alot more integrated then the classic NWN jack-of-all-spells.. ... ...

.. if ye really want to play a cleric in Aenea I'd suggest reading through this first...

Aenea's Diety List

... don't give up on The Amethyst Dragon or Aenea yet .... .... this is a really good world to play in.. its got depth and character...

.. sorry if this comes across as abusive, threatening or forceful... that is not my intention.. just a little "hey , don't leave yet... " ....
Smile


Last edited by RustyDios on Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling and Grammer; caused by an annoying sticky "A" key .. lol)
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:47 pm

There's also the option of hunting in groups. Not always possible, but it's not unheard of either. Clerics of Asis and Bards with soothing refrain can manage the healing for the group, wizards/sorcs/clerics handle the buffs, while the meatshields to get smacked up, yet the whole group still gets XP.
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Post by solarina Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:51 pm

I been having mad probs keeping alive at level 4 with skeli's doing 40 points + a hit on me lol im so far into exp debt over it haha The heal check thing sounds kewl i guess my other world it heals like not much sometimes i get 10 hp a heal.

Had no idea gold is readily aviable at upper levels cause at level 5 or whatever my char is at most gold i have yet to see is 200 ish gold.

will try this. Been seeking a place with the spells available here + persistant housing.
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Post by RustyDios Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:03 pm

I think the heal skill check is a 1d20 + Heal skill points.... chuck a "cloak of the humble healer" over your shoulders for a big 30(?) point boost too ... then add in that if you use your bandages before you rest (and remove your armour) the (boosted)heal check also gets added to the amount healed during rest... and take things a little slower in aenea... the change to G.Res isn't all that bad... ..

.. and if ye been going skele hunting in Vale's graveyard... draw those skele's over to the doorway(entrance gate) with the soulguards.... they'll help keep you alive... go ant / goblin hunting for a few easy xp instead of skele's too... ... and examine/identify loot and sell everything for some cash flow... even goblins drop +1 shortbows (around 300gp to Smitty) once in a while ... ..
.. ... you may run into problems with Id'ing things.. if ye be a wiz/sor or bard you do have a Crystal that will Id anything.. if not find another player to Id your stuff... Alastair(?) and Myself usually charge nothing to lower lev guys for Id'ing things ..... .... though it may take us time to get to you... ..... ..... ...
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Post by RayvenNightkind Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:30 pm

RustyDios wrote:Hmmm .. yes we all love those Asis Potions of Full healing... .... Hey Rayvensclaw (if ye reading).. how many was it you wanted to buy from the temple?... Enough to force The Amethyst Dragon into adding them in in optional stacks of 10.. I believe...

Yes indeed, I usually buy a bag of holding full at a time, so that's what, around 140 potions of full heal a pop, lol. I really need to start hunting things that don't hurt as bad! lol!
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:21 am

Lv 4 in the graveyard can be rough.... Most of the skeleons are weak, but I've noticed some real hard ones like to spawn right by the entrance gate.

It might be a bit tedious, but goblins are decent for low levels. When you get to around level 6, you'll start spawning shamans, which give better XP than normal goblins. En mass, they can kill you, but keep your potion supply full and you should be fine.... the payoff XP and gold wise will be better than graveyard skeletons. Once you're higher level, you'll be able to handle the harder skeletons (which do pay more XP for the risk)

Another reason goblins would be better hunting is they are far more likely to drop magic weapons. Even with low appraisal, you should get around 700 to 1000 gold for a +1 melee weapon, and around 200 to 400 gold for a +1 ranged weapon. Goblins drop magic daggers, shortswords, morningstars, crossbows, slings and shields on a fairly decent basis among the ordinary variety of those weapons. After a while of hunting goblins, you should have very little trouble stocking up a decent potion supply and then some.

Goblins also drop plain shortbows often enough. They fetch only 40 gold or so, but they don't weigh too much so you can haul a load of them back to the vale to earn some starting gold.

As Jay said, if you can't ID them, another player should be very willing to help. If your appraisal skill is low as well, another player with higher appraisal skill may be willing to sell the items for you to get the better price.
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Post by Skywatcher Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:55 am

The Amethyst Dragon, the issue with the potions is the attack of opportunity(ies) you give up when drinking one. Not an objection, a cleric should be better than a potion, but it is a big drawback.

It really does make a traditional cleric role require Asis in my opinion. Not a real problem for me, I never play traditional clerics, but I cannot see how a traditional cleric can follow any god besides Asis and be effective, especially in a boss fight where one attack of opportunity may be the difference between winning and losing.
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Post by solarina Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:44 am

Skywatcher wrote:The Amethyst Dragon, the issue with the potions is the attack of opportunity(ies) you give up when drinking one. Not an objection, a cleric should be better than a potion, but it is a big drawback.

It really does make a traditional cleric role require Asis in my opinion. Not a real problem for me, I never play traditional clerics, but I cannot see how a traditional cleric can follow any god besides Asis and be effective, especially in a boss fight where one attack of opportunity may be the difference between winning and losing.

that was some of my point as well. but they saying the heal kits / pots work but regaurdless i gave up playing cleric and went to war / mage instead D=
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Post by Kerrick Merwynne Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:51 am

If by traditional cleric, one means a cleric who is a straight healer (Heal, Mass Heal, etc.) then yes, they would be limited to Asis. But, if one decided to switch up their background a bit and come up with a different "role" for their Cleric (imagine a high level cleric of Prizimal with Extra Turning, a Greater Amulet of Undead Turning, 5 levels of Dead Stalker, and some anti-undead focused gear... such a build would be fierce against undead, and that's just one example) they could have a character every bit as viable and effective as any other, at the cost of being a healing specialist. But in a polytheistic world, where a cleric's abilities are derived directly from their god/religion and not filtered through a domain that their god relates to (or in some cases, doesn't realistically relate to), I think it makes more sense to do it this way. (And since most people buy entire wagonloads of Asis full healing potions, why should a cleric who cannot cast Heal be any different? As an aside, I can count the number of times Kaliria has actually needed to Heal or Mass Heal parties on two hands and still have some fingers left over, because everyone always has potions to burn.)

I've played in other PWs where you'd see clerics of the god of Knowledge (as an example) running around with War as a domain just to get Aura of Vitality as a domain spell. I, though I may be in the minority, think that the idea of limiting spells based on religion is a good one (even though it means that my cleric of Asis can't use Slay Living, or Implosion, or Harm, etc.). In a way, I see it as being similar to the sacrifices one must make to get Dev Crit. I know there are some differences, but ultimately, you make the choice to walk a certain path to achieve a certain end, knowing that you'll be really good at one thing, at the cost of being less good at others.

I think playing a non-Asis cleric would be interesting and fun, as well as challenging. That makes it worth losing some healing ability to me.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Smile
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