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Post by DerusTal Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:21 pm

Just a few ideas.
AA's changed so they actually can imbue arrows with AoE spells, instead of just shoot off fireballs.

A thousand faces ability for druids and shifters of a certain level?

A shadow-walking ability for SDs, or perhaps lengthen the shadow evade duration.

Dragon disciples can choose their lineage, and get immunity and wings based on it.

An actual /spell list/ for assassins and blackguards. (Or just spell-like ability tokens? Idunno.)
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Post by solarina Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:29 pm

spell abilty tokens would be easy fix for that thats a good idea i think one of my old servers did that but you had to pick which ones with a dm and were stuck with those choices ( vs meming different ones daily )

ive seen some prc that has some of those fixs , try search the nwn vualt and google and class forums , which you can find here and there.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:33 pm

DerusTal wrote:Just a few ideas.
AA's changed so they actually can imbue arrows with AoE spells, instead of just shoot off fireballs.

Cool idea... as long as they don't ALSO get caster levels too, cuz they already get full BAB.

A thousand faces ability for druids and shifters of a certain level?

This could work like the Hat of Disuise does Razz Nice!

A shadow-walking ability for SDs, or perhaps lengthen the shadow evade duration.

Shadow walk could work like Transference, but with a darker visual effect.

Dragon disciples can choose their lineage, and get immunity and wings based on it.

This is cool too, and I believe Dragon Disciples also are supposed to get caster levels to go
along with their spell slots, but I dont think they get one ever OTHER level, but instead get one
every 3rd level or somesuch, right? Because they get 3/4 BAB, yes?

Choosing the Color of their Heritage could be tough though... might need to add several new class choices to the list during level up... (Red, Blue, Green, Black, White) That might cause resource issues, Im not sure.

Or maybe you could get a one use item added to your inventory upon taking the class, and it could have 5 radial options. Each option would set your heritage choice. You pick one, and then the variable is saved and affects your character down the line.

An actual /spell list/ for assassins and blackguards. (Or just spell-like ability tokens? Idunno.)

The token items would probably be easier to do, but The Amethyst Dragon would know better.

The Pale master thingy was just striking me as making sense because they get crap BAB,
but thier feat selection is caster based, and they get epic spells at level 15.... so they MUST
be getting better as casting (also indicated by the spell slot increases).

Im not sure what you are referring to about the AC thing though....
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Post by msterswrdsmn Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:39 pm

Im not sure what you are referring to about the AC thing though....
From the palemaster topic? Palemasters AC bonuses in pnp were from the bonemail feat that gave incremental bonuses to your natural AC. In nwn, it -says- its giving the AC to your natural bonus, but its really throwing it in the uncapped/unnamed AC bonus, letting it stack with any other form of natural AC. Combined with the anti-feats it has, its more suited for a melee build atm than it is an actual caster.

On topic, I like the suggestions! Quick question though...Shadowdancers shadow walking. Did you mean this?
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:41 pm

I like the AA idea. Being able to change the elemental type on the damage would rock.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:48 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Im not sure what you are referring to about the AC thing though....
From the palemaster topic? Palemasters AC bonuses in pnp were from the bonemail feat that gave incremental bonuses to your natural AC. In nwn, it -says- its giving the AC to your natural bonus, but its really throwing it in the uncapped/unnamed AC bonus, letting it stack with any other form of natural AC. Combined with the anti-feats it has, its more suited for a melee build atm than it is an actual caster.

Ah, so its just a stacking issue. Not really a big deal in my opinion... maybe that feature should
be "capped" at like +6 or something.... so it doesnt get totally out of control at high levels.

On topic, I like the suggestions! Quick question though...Shadowdancers shadow walking. Did you mean this?
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.

Yes, that is precisely what I meant could work like Transference does. Its not "exactly" the samer thing, because its not really possible to limit the available targets to shadowed areas only... but seeing as they would only have so many uses per day, its not really that big a deal... and would get things closer to PnP.
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Post by msterswrdsmn Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:52 pm

Aaah, gotcha. It'd also help encourage people from taking just one level in shadowdancer too for the HIPS feat, which is always something nice to see, I'd think. Didn't know there was a spell like that already in Aenea though! Would Transference=Dimension door, in terms of effect?
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:56 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:Would Transference=Dimension door, in terms of effect?
Yes.

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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:59 pm

daveyeisley wrote:
DerusTal wrote:Just a few ideas.
AA's changed so they actually can imbue arrows with AoE spells, instead of just shoot off fireballs.

Cool idea... as long as they don't ALSO get caster levels too, cuz they already get full BAB.

Even just being able to chang the elemental type on the damage would be a huge plus, like the versatility of the arcane attacks wizards/sorcerers have. Imbuing with specific spells? That might be complicated to implement, I haven't looked at the inner workings of the ability in the toolset.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:03 pm

And also... it might be a drawback too. Why use up a use of imbue when the AA could use the spell in question as normal as well as another action doing an imbue attack?
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:07 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:And also... it might be a drawback too. Why use up a use of imbue when the AA could use the spell in question as normal as well as another action doing an imbue attack?

Just wanna make sure I am grokking this...

You mean that "imbuing" the arrow would take an action to do?

So it would make using the actual spell possibly a better option (depening on range, etc)?
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:17 pm

Not exactly. Imbue is a use/per day ability, so it's an action onto itself. I would think imbuing with a specific spell would probably require the spell already be ready for use like with scribing scrolls? If I just need to have the spell in my spell book, not necesarily ready for use, that could be somewhat uber, like adding three more casts per day of any given level spell without needed the levels or INT bonus to acheive that.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:23 pm

I see what you mean now... meh... That to me wouldnt be nearly as bad as AA's getting caster levels on top of BAB Razz

Im not meaning to say that anybody was uggesting such, more just expressing something I think should be avoided in all this...

Basically the idea being, BAB progression and caster level progression dont go well together unless they are staggered.

Only one PrC I have seen gives both... Eldritch Knight, and they still lose caster levels from the prerequisites as well as the 1st level of the EK class,
and they lose BAB from the prerequisites... and past that, the class has no other features. Thats ALL it gives you is full BAB and almost full caster levels.

Thats a big balance point in my mind, and I think was VERY intentional on WotC part.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:11 pm

I just checked up on the mechanics of the imbue. The to hit formula is ranged touch attack of d20 + AA class level + bab + dexterity modifier. Damage is 10d6 + 1d6 per two AA levels over 10th, witha reflex save at a DC of 10+AAlevels+the AA's dex modifer.

My question is, without digging up a wizard PC to test it out, do spells with touch attacks use full BAB? I know they use dex modifier in the attack roll, but not off hand what else.

The DC's I think you'd -rather- see done going by the caster class levels than the AA levels. A 30th level AA would have a minimum of 40 DC, plus the dex modifier, instead of the normal spell's 10+spell leve+ect.

The to-hit part with BAB would be the only balance issue... but then again, it's a 3 use a day ability, and it's going to be statistically in the AA's favor to hit anyway unless it's a STR based AA.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:32 pm

Any touch attack uses the BAB. The full BAB. What classes you have levels in determine what that number is, but you would get the full number on the rolls.

The balance issue I see with the math above is that the AA is getting a "Touch" attack that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses... AND they get to add in their AA levels ON TOP OF their BAB and DEX. That seems overpowered. The AA levels should have no effect on the attack, OR it should not be a "touch" attack. One or the other, not both.

The DC seems fine to me, except it should be using a casting stat mod, not a physical stat mod. Otherwise it should not take AA levels into account at all, and should be based on 10+effective level of the spell (3)+casting stat mod (INT or CHA).

Alternatively, it would be more balanced to have the DC take 1/2 AA level into account, like with monk's stunning fist.
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Post by msterswrdsmn Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:45 pm

I think it uses a physical stat mod for the dc fact its a ranged attack using a ranged weapon. Either that or theres some mechanical reason that was done for convienece. Even if its based off DEX, there isn't a significant difference between what the DC between a spell and focused caster would be until the 30's or so. Maybe having a cap or cuttoff point to prevent 50 dc arrows being flung around? Daves 1/2 level idea seems pretty good too, as it puts teh arrow dc at level 40 roughly around where a focused caster would be, but with only 3 uses per day.

not too sure why the attack is determined with a ranged touch attack though. It looks like its determined by an attack roll instead in pnp...i'd have to agree a touch attack is kinda over the top.

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:49 pm

Based on the PnP text, the DC should be as standard for the spell.... so 10+effective spell level+casting stat mod.
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Post by msterswrdsmn Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:51 pm

:-/ that might end up being a turn off to people, as most archers focus in DEX, and lower casting stats would mean dcs ending up around the low to mid 20's even for level 40 characters. Also, how would it determine which stat to choose from? Theres three classes that can open up the AA prereqs, and 2 out of 3 use CHA while the other uses INT. Would there be a way to determine which to use?
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:55 pm

Highest bonus.

Keep in mind.... In PnP the arrow itself does dmg too.

So even if the save DC of the AoE is not stellar (because the player didnt invest heavily in their caster stat), they STILL get to hit you with and Arrow and the AOE at the same time.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:01 pm

Anyway... The more I thought about it (ah, the deep thoughts possible when cooking Very Happy ) the imbuing with a specific spell is cool.... BUT, I'd almost rather go for just the ability to choose the elemental type of damage on the imbue. Really won't be too much 'throwing around' of imbues anyhow since it's 3/day period. It makes a handy grenade to toss out every now and then, but nothing that's gonna help you plow through loads of spawnpoints.
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Post by DerusTal Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:47 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:Anyway... The more I thought about it (ah, the deep thoughts possible when cooking Very Happy ) the imbuing with a specific spell is cool.... BUT, I'd almost rather go for just the ability to choose the elemental type of damage on the imbue. Really won't be too much 'throwing around' of imbues anyhow since it's 3/day period. It makes a handy grenade to toss out every now and then, but nothing that's gonna help you plow through loads of spawnpoints.

That's another idea. Just area elemental damage to emulate the real imbue?

Or! You can give AA's the ability to cast an area spell on an arrow, and let them keep it in their inventory till next rest, three times a day. Makes it a bit more plausible in NWN.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:00 pm

Have the "imbued" arrow work like a normal targeted attack, and if it hits, it does piercing damage + AA enchant arrow dmg + elemental damage (if they used the imbue ability on an arrow with elemental dmg)+ the aoe dmg with a save for half.

Well the piercing and "enchant arrow" and elemental dmg should be on primary target only, mind you.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:23 pm

Default imbue arrow (as well as seeker and hail arrows) already add the enchant arrow bonus to the primary target (all targets in case of hail) as magical damage along with other relevant modifers. Adding in the extra damage from elemental arrows would be a plus to the numbers as would the AoE damage. I could see uses in non-AoE spells as well, at least ones that you wouldn't want to see in an AoE effect unless you were the one doing the shooting at least Wink Imbuing with flesh to stone could be a tactical advantage, or blindness, or curse... have it target what the spell would normally target. AoE's if it's normally an AoE as per fire ball, or a single target, ifthe spell is a single target itself.
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Post by DerusTal Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:00 pm

I would totally make an AA for that. Like, 25 wizard/15 AA.

Wail of the Banshee Arrows, imo.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:38 pm

Isnt there a limitation on what level spells an arrow can be imbued with?
I could have sworn it was 3rd level spells and below...
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:12 am

I'm not familiar with the class in pnp, so I couldn't tell you.
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Post by msterswrdsmn Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:11 pm

Shocked Me either, really, and apparently, neither is anyone else. I've checked several sites, pdf sourcebooks, and whatnot and I cant find anything on how imbue arrow is supposed to work aside from a very general description thats even less detailed than whats in the nwn manual. Nothing about what spells can/can't be used, how the DC for the arrow is determined, etc...
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Post by RustyDios Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:42 pm

The only references I can find is in the 3.5 DMG on pg 177 :

"Imbue Arrow(sp): At 2nd level, an Arcane Archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired the spell is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spells range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the same round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted."

This is from the NWN Wiki :

"
Type of feat: class
Prerequisite: arcane archer level 2
Specifics: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the
ability to summon a magical arrow and fire it at an enemy. If it hits,
it explodes as a fireball spell, doing fire damage to all hostile creatures in the area of effect.
Use: selected

[edit] Notes



  • Added in the expansion packs.
  • The fireball damage is 10d6
    plus 1d6 for every 2 arcane archer (AA) levels above 10; e.g., a 16th
    level arcane archer would inflict 13d6 damage. This allows a reflex saving throw for half damage, with a DC of 10 AA level dexterity modifier. The arrow itself still does piercing damage when targeted on a creature.
  • The ability can be used three times a day.
  • The formula for the ranged touch attack is d20 AA class level BAB dexterity modifier."


Thats everything I could dig up about AA imbue arrow in relation to NWN... .... hope that helps...
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Post by RustyDios Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:49 pm

Hmm that last Quote didn't come out quite right ....

Ranged Touch Attack:: 1d20 + AA lv + BAB + dex mod

Damage :: (Fireball) 10d6 (Piercing) + 1d6/2 AA lv, ( Fire)
Reflex sv 1/2 (DC = 10 + AA lv + dex mod)

...And from the DMG: any "Area" spell (AoE)... no level limits..and using the max range of the bow not the spell...
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:30 pm

Yeah its a little wonky in NWN for several reasons already stated.
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:38 pm

Also for this thread:

Monks get an ability called "the abundant step" in PnP. Would work very similar to Dimension Door/Tranference.
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Post by DerusTal Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:54 pm

Can't they also speak all languages at a certain level?
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Post by RustyDios Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:21 pm

Yeah and Shadowdancers get (per 3.5 Classes. 698157, pg 195)...

Shadow Jump(Su) : At 4th lev, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitations is that it must begin and end in an area of shadow... ...

I'm not going to copy the whole entry but there are many class features missing in NWN... stuff the designers didn't have the time to code, didn't see the point in coding, forgot to code, didn't know how to code, etc etc .. .. considering though that the last (1.69) update was done by TWO guys, working for no money, in thier spare time - because they love the game, I think they did a good job after all the funding was cut ... .... ... and then we have people such as The Amethyst Dragon and sixesthrice still making custom content and keeping the game alive... .... .... there are so many more minor improvements that could be made in NWN.. but as it is (here in Aenea).. it's possibly the closest to PnP it's ever going to get... .... ....
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:44 pm

I agree that Aenea is closer to PnP than anywhere else I know of.

I still think we can get closer, there is always room to improve.
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:54 pm


On topic, I like the suggestions! Quick question though...Shadowdancers shadow walking. Did you mean this?
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.

Yes, that is precisely what I meant could work like Transference does. Its not "exactly" the samer thing, because its not really possible to limit the available targets to shadowed areas only... but seeing as they would only have so many uses per day, its not really that big a deal... and would get things closer to PnP.

Another thought, to sort of bring the "shadowed areas only" aspect of shadowstep back into play, in a limited sort of way, while ALSO making the shadowdancer class much more attractive to races that have issues with sunlight would be to have the shadowstep instantly take the character to the nearest shadowy area and make them invisible... sort of like the potion of shadowy escape, but more local, and with a combat "disengage/sneak attack set-up".
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