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Post by daveyeisley Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Had a pretty long and in-depth convo tonight in game with a few players about Clerics in Aenea.

The flavor and theme behind various Clerics and their Deities is great.... really sets the tone and feel for the World of Aenea. Mechanically speaking, however... there are some apparent shortfalls in the Clerics advancement during the higher levels.

Main issues discussed were that many of the Clerics best buffs, that do things no other class can do, are often replaced with items in-game or by custom items that give these special properties. As it would suck to suddently have a host of items disappear or a slew of new restrictions on custom gear... (after all, you arent always going to be able to have a cleric around to buff you, and some challenges in the game all but depend on certain properties for PC survival)...

It would be nice to see the clerics get some added benefits to certain things in their various themes. For example... Asis Clerics getting a bigger radius on mass heal and adding temporary hitpoints on top of a heal (like a damage shield of sorts, to make it superior to the asis potions everyone carries in large supply) something like 1d8 temp hit points per caster level... and Borzig Cleric's gaining access to spells like Shock Weapon (not granted spell, but actually on the spell list), or perhaps Terris Clerics getting a new spell, maybe called diamondskin that gives a higher than +5 bonus Damage reduction... also discussed was perhaps Asis Clerics getting the ability to restore 100% XP with resurrection rather than 75% (me likey that one a lot).

Also discussed were the "gaps" left behind by some Clerics spells being restricted by Deity. As there are some of the better spells removed from most clerics lists (implosion and harm come to mind very quickly)... the idea was to perhaps add a benefit to replace that loss (in the spell list specifically). Asis clerics get hit even harder by losing access to destruction and slay living (it makes sense, but is a major drawback nonetheless)... and something to make up for this is needed (the current benefits dont seem to scale well enough at higher levels).

Juts posting this up to get folks talking maybe about ways to add some mechanical oomph to higher level clerics without unbalancing them or breaking their themes.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:52 pm

A note, asis clerics aren't the only one who are restricted from slay living. Druids can't cast it either, although it's in their spell book.

I have two clerics, one Asis cleric, one Mystara cleric. The mystara cleric isn't too high yet, but the benefits they gain make them fairly robust I would think...

But the Asis cleric. The ready access to heal/mass heal is great, but agreed, something a little more woudl be nice to compensate for the lack of offensive spells and the rather useless feeling one can get while playing an asis cleric in a party toting around 10 to 50 full heals and you're only able to cast heal 9 or 10 times per day.

The larger radius on mass heal... great idea. I like the temp HP idea as well. And the 100% XP refund for ressurrection... I think this is the best idea. Everyone with even the slightest party oriented thinking seems to carry around rez scrolls... so why not make it more enticing to have an Asis cleric around to do what everyone else does anyway, just better.

Another idea for Asis clerics... Regen spells. Make the HP regenerated by them level dependant when cast by Asis clerics. They start off casting the spells like all other clerics, but with more experience, they can generate much more HP than any other cleric with their spell. There's already one ability in Aenea that can be as much as 40hp per round regen (40th level bard's soothing refrain... .even at level 39, it regens an incredible 11hp per round). Let the Asis clerics be able to match that with their experience.

Nova of Life.... Great for Paladins, could be great as well for Asis and Prizimal clerics.

Buffage for clerics in general... Magic Vestment, perhaps uncap this one? Sure anyone can grab a bracer of full plate armor, but it'd be sweet to have a high level cleric along who can buff you to as much as +10 armor AC bonus or +10 shield AC bonus if they got the levels to do so.
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Post by Papa-Lenin Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:06 pm

I think thats a good idea to add these granted spells to actual spellbooks, plus expanding it with something more if these granted spells don't offer anything unique to the class.

I had also an idea of creating some special lvl 9 and lvl 6 spell which would raise with caster lvls, for each deity exept Ragnor, who get the removed harm and implosion, so no need to change them in this regard.

For example some powerful electric area damage spell for cleric of Borzig, some water for Aquar, maybe some big area mass healing for Asis with extra temp hp for whole party, and so on and so.

Uncapping the existing buffs is also a wonderful idea, makes it worthwile to level a cleric over lvl 20.
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Post by daveyeisley Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:48 pm

Agreed on all counts Smile
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:24 pm

As for clerics of Zolaras, could the Skeletal Guardian be leveled to the caster? That would make it far FAR more useful to them once they get it. Hell, it wasn't very useful by the time I got it, and that didn't get better.
Also could Energy Drain get a boost for clerics of Zolaras?

I have to agree that they don't get much firepower. They're pretty much self-buffing melee fighters, or archers for those with Zen Archery. Some sort of firepower to complement their current lack thereof would be nice to see.

Granted, they get Word of Faith... which is really REALLY good... but it doesn't do any real damage. Plus if the enemy is mind immune, it doesn't even matter anyways.

I definitely agree with the asis clerics needing some sort of far bettr benefit than being able to cast a spell that can be gotten from a potion (Other than the fact that the potion doesnt work on undead, but that's a whole other story) I love the suggestions so far myself, and I'd like to throw in another -

Maybe give them an automatic regeneration of some sort starting at X level (I'm thinking around 5-7, that way the regen isn't TOO early). Since they channel that sort of healing magic so often, I'd think it only natural that they tap into a tiny amount of it themselves, and not just for casting the spells either, just in general. I might be wrong here though...

I'm sure I'll come up with more later...
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Post by daveyeisley Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:05 pm

I would rather see Cleric buffs get boosted in variuous ways based on deity choice than see Clerics blasting away alongside mages... if you want to blow stuff up as a Cleric ragnor is your guy.... ya know?

For the other deities, it makes more sense to have their spells stay in the cleric theme, and give special advantages to bolster the Cleric style of combat, which is less kaboom than mages, but more defensive and enhancement related. As a lot fo cleric buffs give things that can be gotten on items at higher levels, why not makes the buffs useful in other ways, like adding effects to them that cannot be duplicated with items (temp hps, raising the caps on certain enhancing spells, etc). So if you *focus* on Cleric, you gain something for it.

Right now, aside from Mystara Clerics and maybe one or two others.... you barely get anything useful past level 20... and party-wise, your allies will have items that do most of everything your buffs can do.
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Post by Papa-Lenin Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:03 am

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Maybe give them an automatic regeneration of some sort starting at X level (I'm thinking around 5-7, that way the regen isn't TOO early). Since they channel that sort of healing magic so often, I'd think it only natural that they tap into a tiny amount of it themselves, and not just for casting the spells either, just in general. I might be wrong here though...

Personally I'd rather see my cleric of Asis giving this kind of regen to the party as a mass aoe spell rather than enhancing her own regen only, since I imagined them to be people who care about others more rather than massacrating enemies on their own, basically the earlier idea of recreating that bard song as a spell.
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:55 pm

Papa-Lenin wrote:
evilkittenofdoom wrote:Maybe give them an automatic regeneration of some sort starting at X level (I'm thinking around 5-7, that way the regen isn't TOO early). Since they channel that sort of healing magic so often, I'd think it only natural that they tap into a tiny amount of it themselves, and not just for casting the spells either, just in general. I might be wrong here though...

Personally I'd rather see my cleric of Asis giving this kind of regen to the party as a mass aoe spell rather than enhancing her own regen only, since I imagined them to be people who care about others more rather than massacrating enemies on their own, basically the earlier idea of recreating that bard song as a spell.

Heck yeah.

Nobody should be better or more efficient at healing than a Cleric of Asis, in my opinion.

Right now, they just dont have the mechanics to back it up.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:56 pm

I meant it as an "in addition to" sort of thing.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:32 am

More to put in here.

In D&D canon, when it comes to high level melee.... a fully buffed PURE Cleric *should* have an edge against a fully buffed PURE arcane caster.

As it stands now, in Aenea, and in NWN, I dont feel this is the case.

Clerics of Asis would generally fare the best I think due to full heals... but in the end, I have to admit I think the Arcane caster with Tenser's, all the elemental spells, shivani's beheading blade (if they can use a sword), and epic mage armor plus epic warding, PLUS mordenkainen's disjunction will win out just about every single time in a melee.

Thats a PvP comparison, truly... but even against monsters, the imbalance will show itself quite clearly. Clerics arent as good at melee as arcane casters. Sure, the arcane caster has to give up their spellcasting temporarily, while the cleric does not, and the cleric gets heavy armor and shield without investing feats.... but these arent enough to balance the outcomes.

Thats not balanced or fair to the clerics.... (I cant believe I just said that... I love arcane magic so much lol)

Mystara Clerics get Mord's... sure... but from an item... so it lacks proper caster level... if its going to be useful to dispel high level enemy casters, it needs to be backed by the clerics *FULL* caster level. Only way I know to do that is to put it on the Clerics spell list so they can actually memorize it.

The same can be said for just about every Deity granted spell. They need to go into the spell list for clerics.

To make all clerics, not just Asis clerics good enough to shine in a melee alongside, or against arcane casters, they ALSO need some weapon enhancements... maybe not the elemental ones like arcane casters have, but something more then just darkfire. Maybe something to add 1d10 positive per 8 caster levels or somesuch.
Also something to give them an instalkill onhit, similar to shivanis, but alignment restricted....

With the buff i posted in another thread for Firestorm, this would I believe go a long way towards making Clerics more fun and more effective compared to other classes.

Also, with my proposed scaling calculations for the positive dmg weapon spell, and also the firestorm suggestion... it would give clerics something to look forward to after level 20.

Last thought.... seeing as not all clerics would or even *should* have access to mord's.... at the least, it shouldnt be the one spell that easily strips all of their buffs in one fell swoop.... perhaps to balance it a bit better, have some of the clerical buffs actually grant the cleric a *bonus* to their caster level, based on deity choice.... some deities would make certain spells more powerful and hence, harder to dispel.

Also, make Spell Resistance unbreachable if possible. Dispellable, but not auto-breachable.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:48 am

A positive damage weapon buff would be excellent. It does seem odd to me that my asis cleric is employing negative energy with the spell... I could just not use it, but the only other weapon buffs in her spell book are GMW and silvania's golden flames (or whatever the undead weapon buffer is.... and that one's relatively weak... I can get the same sonic damage off a crystal of vibration, and that's good against all foes, not just undead).

An idea I"ve been toying around with too....

Cure X line of spells.

In the early levels, they're great. Mid to epic levels, even with the Asis cleric boost to them.... pants.

If my cleric Aerith casts "cure critical wounds" on say, Phyllick when he's near death.... that "critical wound" healed is well... it's a cheap bandaid on a gushing amputated limb.

Perhaps the cure line of spells could rather instead of healing a static dX+X/caster level, heal a percentage of the target's total HP.

For example, cure light wounds would heal 5% of the target's total HP, be it a 1 HP heal on a level 2 PC who has 20 full healthHP, or a 50 hp heal on an HP god with 1000HP at full health HP. Critical wounds, the last step before Heal, could heal maybe as much as 20%?

The exact ratio of numbers could be worked out to a better set... but this may make the cure line of spells (and in turn, clerical spontaneous casting of cure spells) useful past level 20. In the epic levels... even with cure critical wounds, it's better for the injured PC to pop a heal potion than wait for a cleric to cast cure critical 10 or 15 times (if they even have that many casts, which would require metamagic)
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:07 am

I would go so far as to say the Cure X spells should have a flat minimum amount healed PLUS a percentage of the targets Max HP.

So something like:

Cure light : 1d6HP + 5% (so an asis cleric gets 6+5% of max)
Cure mod: 1d8+10% (asis gets 8+10%)
Cure Serious: 2d8+15% (asis gets 16+15%)
Cure Crit: 2d12+20% (asis gets 24+20%)
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Post by Elhanan Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:26 am

From observation, the clerics suffer here due to the loss of most of the offensive magics, as well as the eliminated Domain abilities. Some have been compensated, but many seem to lack the power that a Divine battery should hold.

Perhaps adding a bit more to each Deity choice would help, as the return of all spells; granting Spell Focus, Empowered, or other meta-magic feats to those controlled choices.
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Post by Papa-Lenin Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:11 am

Well of course making cure wounds working nice is cool and all, but it won't add anything to playablity, noone is gonna use that spell anyways.

I'm not good at inventing new spells but perhaps someone can think of some new, useful stuff to replace all the lost spells from clerics on this server.

I don't quite understand why clerics here got their domains removed, would seem completely logical for me to have for example cleric of mystara with magic domain, rangon with evil and so on.

At least giving some 2 new spells per god/goddess would be nice, for example for Asis I think something like this:

lvl 6 spell: mass regen 1 hp per caster lvl, 1 round/lvl duration, extendable

lvl 9 spell: mass heal, collosal area, healing everything completely + adding temporary 5hp per caster lvl
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Post by solarina Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:38 pm

Cleric is kinda a bad choice of char here due to loss of so many standard spells via diety restriction. I used to play all clerics till I got to this server and found out how bad spells were nerfed for them, only one diety can heal right and only a handful can be OK at combat then the rest of the diety faiths are just kinda meh, there is no counter balance to clerics here to make up for the basic core D & D spells that were striped from them. Cleric used to be great for their versatility but here that versatility is well gone, basically forcing you to choose healing only or offensive only or one of the muck dwellers in between.

The edge in this mod goes to any spell casting class BUT cleric.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:49 pm

Well, no character in aenea is more protected from magic than a 30th level Cleric of Mystara... but that protection isnt the issue. Sure, no arcane caster will be able to do squat to you with anything but spic spells, but if that arcane caster buffs for melee.... watch out.... clerics wont be able to stand up well in that scenario, unfortunately. They dont get the epic spell goodness like mages get, and thats a very big deal.
Plus only Mystara cleics get access toanything with a "breaching" ability (mords), in order to deal with an NPC arcane casters damage shields such as acid sheath...
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:21 pm

Also, while I am *still* very much in favor of buffing all clerics in general, I do want to point out that there *is* *some* counterbalance already in play for spells that were stripped from varios deity spell lists.... there are custom divine spells for different deities that are quite nice... they just dont totally make up for the shortfall. I just wanted to make sure that was said in The Amethyst Dragon's defense... he *did* add things for Clerics to offset what was taiken, but I think there should be a bit more.
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Post by Maeglin Dubh Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:48 pm

Which reminds me, I want to make a Cleric of Mystara for just that reason, but I can't imagine what other draw there might be to the class. Ok, at level 30 I'm really really good at scaring dead things, but what else is there for an Epic Mystaran Cleric?
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:00 pm

Papa-Lenin wrote:Well of course making cure wounds working nice is cool and all, but it won't add anything to playablity, noone is gonna use that spell anyways.

I'm not good at inventing new spells but perhaps someone can think of some new, useful stuff to replace all the lost spells from clerics on this server.

I don't quite understand why clerics here got their domains removed, would seem completely logical for me to have for example cleric of mystara with magic domain, rangon with evil and so on.

At least giving some 2 new spells per god/goddess would be nice, for example for Asis I think something like this:

lvl 6 spell: mass regen 1 hp per caster lvl, 1 round/lvl duration, extendable

lvl 9 spell: mass heal, collosal area, healing everything completely + adding temporary 5hp per caster lvl

If cure crit would heal 62-84 hit points for a target who had 300 total, (2-24+20%), I think folks would actually consider using it in combat as a spontaeous cast.... thats enough healing to offset more than half of an enemy caster's Horrid Wilting (8th level spell) even on a *failed* save by the victim. Its also an equivalent amount of healing that Vampire PCs get from drinking normal blood with maxxed Heal Skill. Not at all insignificant. Asis clerics should probably even get a 5% bonus on *top* of the spell being auto-maximixed...

So a better breakdown:

Cure light : 1d6HP + 5% (so an asis cleric gets 6+10% of max)
Cure mod: 1d8+10% (asis gets 8+15%)
Cure Serious: 2d8+15% (asis gets 16+20%)
Cure Crit: 2d12+20% (asis gets 24+25%)

So in the above example, the asis cleric would be healing 99 points with a 4th level spell, cast spontaneously.
That would mean a target wounded by Horrid Wilting, an 8th level spell, who failed their save would have taken on average roughly 120 dmg.... and the asis cleric has just countered that by 80% with a spell 4 levels lower. (caveat being that horrid is an Aoe, so a mass version of cure crit would be needed to properly counter it, though such a spell would probably be at least 7th level, still would be nice to see one added)

I think the above caluclations would indeed make some of the lower level spells slots useful for clerics in a party, especially considering their spontaneous casting...

I DO agree 100% that the Asis clerics should get the special, nifty, ungodly powerful AoE healing spells with temp HP addons. That just *smacks* of what Asis clerics *should* be able to do, and would explain why adventurers *REALLY* want an Asis cleric in their party.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:06 pm

Maeglin Dubh wrote:Which reminds me, I want to make a Cleric of Mystara for just that reason, but I can't imagine what other draw there might be to the class. Ok, at level 30 I'm really really good at scaring dead things, but what else is there for an Epic Mystaran Cleric?

Well level that baby up to 40th, make sure you took the divine might and divine shield feats, and have good Charisma to power them.... then if my firestorm and "positive energy damage bonus" spell are added, you got a good nuke that will damage anything (10d8 divine + 10d8 fire dmg, no save), and you got a weapon buff that will add 5d10 positive ON TOP of your divine might. Throw up Divine Power for the AB and STR boost, and go to town General Cleric suggestion Thread Icon_smile
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:53 pm

My epic (34 IIRC) cleric of Zolaras will slaughter Undead (Even adding my Dead Stalker into the mix to make it THAT much more effective) But against anything else, I have to resort to my Divine Might/Divine Shield to be truly effective, and even that isn't entirely reliable at times.

Sure, I can make myself have a 48ish AB and give myself almost 60 AC, but there's no real reason for her to have a high wisdom except for a few spell slots, which the higher level ones are almost unused.

I'd love to see something more useful in higher level spell slots, especially for non-asis, non-ragnor clerics.

Even the undead summons that are Zolaras specific are useless (The special one "Skeletal Guardian" or some such.) By the time you get it, it's useless to you. Might we give it a nice boost? Or even better, make it the Mummy Dust spell instead? (Or just give them the feat plain out at maybe say level 30 or so) [This suggestion is in the list below]
As as summary of my suggestions, and to conserve space in the post, I put them all in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

Give Mystara clerics maybe Greater Ruin at level 30ish.
Give Dalix clerics Epic Warding or Epic Mage Armor at 30ish and so on.
Give Terris clerics Epic Damage reduction 1 2 and 3 at certain levels.
Give Asis clerics their Heal/Mass Heal spells the ability to give Temporary Hps.
Give Conflagral clerics free access to Dragon Knight.
Give Borzig Clerics auto-maximized Storm of Veangence plus a +4 to DC (and fix it too while you're at it).
Give Lysis clerics a spell that increases the Saving Throws of everyone in an AoE by 5 or so, and give them the ability to use up maybe say 5 level 9 spells to use the lysis bracer effect.
Give Ralth Clerics all of the crafting feats for free, as well as allowing them to craft new and/or better items.
Give Harcorth clerics a drown ability, or add Drown to their spells list.
Give Typhis clerics Flight at level 10ish. Also give them an extended version of haste (I.E. Increase the usefulness of the Blinding Speed feat) at a high level. Also add all of their spells to the spell lists so that they have continual access to them (Most importantly, protective Gale)
Give Torgat clerics a free increase to AB every so many levels, and/or give them Epic Prowess at level 20ish
Give Jewel clerics an ability to encase enemies in crystal (Petrify on failed fortitude or will save, immobilize on success)
Give Sorgath clerics Death attack or sneak attack at level 25-30ish
Give Andra druids an improved barksin spell. Remove the cap on it perhaps. Also give them access to all of the "Greater Stat Spells." They're possibly one of the best spells out there that aren't in the spell lists for any class.
Give Zolaras Clerics free access to Mummy dust, as well as maybe giving them to option to turn on/off automatic Soul Boots effect. Maybe give their ressurection spells and raise dead spells a boost wouldnt hurt either (Similar to the Asis suggestion. Give them a temporary HP boost or other effect)
Give Prizimial clerics Incrased effects on the Darkness, Sunburst, Searing Light and
Give Aquar clerics a sort of water barrier. Something that grants damage [i]resistance[i] to physical damage up to the first 10 points (as a rough number). Also give them entire immunity to cold, or at least Energy Resistance (Cold) at level 8 and then Epic Energy Resistance (Cold) 1-3 at scaling levels after 21. {I want to apologize on this one. I thought this one over for a good 25 minutes can came up with little ideas. Anyone that has a better idea here, please say it, cause I'm pretty clueless}
Gort clerics don't neccesarily need a new boost, seeing as they get the free haste boots. Adding the Transference spell as well as the teleport spell to their spellbook wouldn't hurt.
Give Kalas clerics the "Detention" effects (The blessing) as a spell, usable a few times a day.
Ragnor Clerics (as per the discussion above) don;t really need a boost. Their spells are really REALLY good.
So long as there are some usable things for each deity for higher levels and/or to make them more unique, there doesn't neccesarily need to be new spells for them all.

Yes, we'd all love new spells. Buffing spells would be best IMHO but others could be used no doubt. But it's not the only way to increase a clerics usefulness.


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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:56 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:My epic (34 IIRC) cleric of Zolaras will slaughter Undead (Even adding my Dead Stalker into the mix to make it THAT much more effective) But against anything else, I have to resort to my Divine Might/Divine Shield to be truly effective, and even that isn't entirely reliable at times.

Sure, I can make myself have a 48ish AB and give myself almost 60 AC, but there's no real reason for her to have a high wisdom except for a few spell slots, which the higher level ones are almost unused.

I'd love to see something more useful in higher level spell slots, especially for non-asis, non-ragnor clerics.

Even the undead summons that are Zolaras specific are useless (The special one "Skeletal Guardian" or some such.) By the time you get it, it's useless to you. Might we give it a nice boost? Or even better, make it the Mummy Dust spell instead? (Or just give them the feat plain out at maybe say level 30 or so) [This suggestion is in the list below]
As as summary of my suggestions, and to conserve space in the post, I put them all in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

Give Mystara clerics maybe Greater Ruin at level 30ish.
Give Dalix clerics Epic Warding or Epic Mage Armor at 30ish and so on.
Give Terris clerics Epic Damage reduction 1 2 and 3 at certain levels.
Give Asis clerics their Heal/Mass Heal spells the ability to give Temporary Hps.
Give Conflagral clerics free access to Dragon Knight.
Give Borzig Clerics auto-maximized Storm of Veangence plus a +4 to DC (and fix it too while you're at it).
Give Lysis clerics a spell that increases the Saving Throws of everyone in an AoE by 5 or so, and give them the ability to use up maybe say 5 level 9 spells to use the lysis bracer effect.
Give Ralth Clerics all of the crafting feats for free, as well as allowing them to craft new and/or better items.
Give Harcorth clerics a drown ability, or add Drown to their spells list.
Give Typhis clerics Flight at level 10ish. Also give them an extended version of haste (I.E. Increase the usefulness of the Blinding Speed feat) at a high level. Also add all of their spells to the spell lists so that they have continual access to them (Most importantly, protective Gale)
Give Torgat clerics a free increase to AB every so many levels, and/or give them Epic Prowess at level 20ish
Give Jewel clerics an ability to encase enemies in crystal (Petrify on failed fortitude or will save, immobilize on success)
Give Sorgath clerics Death attack or sneak attack at level 25-30ish
Give Andra druids an improved barksin spell. Remove the cap on it perhaps. Also give them access to all of the "Greater Stat Spells." They're possibly one of the best spells out there that aren't in the spell lists for any class.
Give Zolaras Clerics free access to Mummy dust, as well as maybe giving them to option to turn on/off automatic Soul Boots effect. Maybe give their ressurection spells and raise dead spells a boost wouldnt hurt either (Similar to the Asis suggestion. Give them a temporary HP boost or other effect)
Give Prizimial clerics Incrased effects on the Darkness, Sunburst, Searing Light and
Give Aquar clerics a sort of water barrier. Something that grants damage [i]resistance[i] to physical damage up to the first 10 points (as a rough number). Also give them entire immunity to cold, or at least Energy Resistance (Cold) at level 8 and then Epic Energy Resistance (Cold) 1-3 at scaling levels after 21. {I want to apologize on this one. I thought this one over for a good 25 minutes can came up with little ideas. Anyone that has a better idea here, please say it, cause I'm pretty clueless}
Gort clerics don't neccesarily need a new boost, seeing as they get the free haste boots. Adding the Transference spell as well as the teleport spell to their spellbook wouldn't hurt.
Give Kalas clerics the "Detention" effects (The blessing) as a spell, usable a few times a day.
Ragnor Clerics (as per the discussion above) don;t really need a boost. Their spells are really REALLY good.
So long as there are some usable things for each deity for higher levels and/or to make them more unique, there doesn't neccesarily need to be new spells for them all.

Yes, we'd all love new spells. Buffing spells would be best IMHO but others could be used no doubt. But it's not the only way to increase a clerics usefulness.

Some of those suggestions kick butt Smile
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Post by Papa-Lenin Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:18 am

Very nice suggestions evilkittenofdoom, thats exactly what I was thinking of.
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:40 am

I really think at least *some* clerics should get the epic mage armor, or epic warding feats.... maybe not *all*... but Dalix for Epic mage Armor, Terris for Epic Warding, and maybe Torgat for one or both makes a lot of sense to me.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:36 pm

Completely changing gears here on the clerical suggestions...

What about using the currently unused NwN feats for doamins and changing them to grant the powers, bonuses and such. There are good combinations for each deity as far as I can tell, and assuming they can be changed, that would allow for spells for specific deities only to appear in their own respective spell lists among other things.

How about it? Of course, the more important question, is it doable?
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:12 pm

After looking through the NwN wiki, I found that the Domain.2da feats can in fact be changed, name included. However, characters that start out as ceric first level would probably have to have them removed then added again for the proper thing to work.(And I'm by no means a scripter. I simply have a very VERY basic understanding of what does what, just not how to put it together) I'm pretty sure that in that case maybe as a cleric selects their deity if replaces the domains and gives them the "new" ones.

How does that sound?


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Post by evilkittenofdoom Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:24 pm

As copied from the New Feats thread, as I figure it fits just as well here.

As a new feat available to clerics (and druids too)...

Divine Intervention
(Requirements - 25 levels of Cleric or Druid, 25+ Wisdom, Strong Soul)
Spoiler:
Some clerics are so devoted to their cause that even death will wait for them to finish their task. For 15 rounds after dying, the cleric is returned to life, invincible, but unable to attack or cast any spells. Instead, they are granted the ability to use one spell infinitely for the duration of the effect. The exact spell granted varies with deity. After those 15 rounds, the cleric dies as normal.

Andra - Creeping Doom/Inferno
Aquar - Geyser
Asis - Mass Heal
Borzig - Ball Lightning
Conflagral - Firestorm
Dalix - Hold Monster
Gort - Slow/Mass Haste
Harcorth - Drown
Jewel - Confusion
Kalas - Hold Monster
Lysis - Interposing Hand
Mystara - Telemus Arcanum IX
Prizimial - Sunburst
Ragnor - Destruction
Ralth - Hammer of the Gods
Sorgath - Enervation/Energy Drain
Terris - Earthquake/Greater Earthen Rupture/Flesh to Stone
Torgat - Able to attack freely, instead of gaining spell uses - duration of 10 rounds, not 15
Typhis - Tempest's Microburst
Zolaras - Cleave Health/Finger of Death
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:03 am

I would say thats probly a little involved/over complex, and probably overpowered to be honest.

Maybe something simpler like, death is postponed for 6 rounds (invulnerability), and the cleric has their spells refreshed. After 6 rounds they still die like they were supposed to, no matter what.

It would also have to have a decently long cooldown.
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Post by Kefrem Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:30 am

As for clerics of Zolaras, could the Skeletal Guardian be leveled to the caster?

This has been a problem in the game since they released hotu. All of the summon spells are coded for level 20 being max level. When they released hotu, they upped the level cap...added some new spells...but all the old level based summon spells cap at 20(prob due to an oversite...or they just didnt care.) The only really good summon is the mummy lord granted from mummy dust epic spell. and even that taps out around level 30 when he starts gettin his butt handed to him.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:48 am

The summon IX elementals aren't too shabby. 25th level elementals.

Other than that, yeah, the spell summons are pretty pants. Epic SD's and BG's can get a feat to improve their shadowlords/vrocks, but even then they need substantial buffing to not die in a blink against anything not well below your level.
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:58 am

Agree on the summon topic, across the board for all casters. Epic summons are better than the rest, but *still* not tough enough.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:25 am

The Skeletal Guardian is the custom summoned creature that Zolaras clerics get for being clerics of Zolaras.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:59 pm

An idea I saw on another server to go along with the 100% refund from a cleric casting raise dead/resurrection on you...

Grant the cleric some XP for casting the spell on corpses. Nothing too outrageous, but even if it's just 50 or even 100XP, but definitely no more than 500 at the absolute most... the full XP debt refund to the dead character and a little XP to the cleric would make it simply more desirable to have a cleric along in a group to bring the dead back to life than just having just anyone using a scroll. I could even see a "base" XP bonus for clerics in general, but a little extra for clerics of Zolarass and Asis.

I would definitely say the XP should be from casting the spell itself, not just from using a scroll or using a rod. The dead character should probably still receive a full XP refund from a scroll/rod used by a cleric, but the cleric only gets XP from casting the spell, not from devices.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:18 pm

daveyeisley wrote:I would say thats probly a little involved/over complex, and probably overpowered to be honest.

Maybe something simpler like, death is postponed for 6 rounds (invulnerability), and the cleric has their spells refreshed. After 6 rounds they still die like they were supposed to, no matter what.

It would also have to have a decently long cooldown.

I leaned away from refreshing their spells list for a few reasons. First of all, it's impossible to know what spells are memorized, and that in itself can make the ability either useless or godlike. Without being able to attack, my cleric would have nothing to actually do for those 6 rounds. Secondly, not all of the spells are "deity appropriate" for the purpose here. I wanted something that could be done in one feat, but give each cleric a specific ability as per their deity.

Cooldown - definitely. Even better, have it eat up piety points. (With a VC command to turn it off/on)
As for the duration, I simply came up with a somewhat random number. As I think about it, 6 rounds sounds better than 15. I'd say keep it 10 rounds for Torgat followers however, as attacking can take more [or less, depending on what you're fighting and with what weapon] time to kill something than with spells.

Ressurection XP. Sounds good to me, and I'd think it's rather easy to implement.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:31 pm

I haven't messed around too much with the on-rest script or any 'refreshing' script... but I think it is possible to refresh spells without necessarily refreshing health and such.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:48 pm

It is, but my point is that just refreshing their prepared spells could be a curse or a godsend. It all depends on what spells are memorized. Using a set spell to be cast makes it predictable whether or not it will be useful in a given situation (hence why a VC command to toggle on/off would be great)
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:58 pm

That's just one of the quirks of memorized spell casting. Unlike sorc/bard spontaneous casting, you gotta figure out ahead of time what you want available
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Post by daveyeisley Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:41 am

I leaned away from refreshing their spells list for a few reasons. First of all, it's impossible to know what spells are memorized, and that in itself can make the ability either useless or godlike. Without being able to attack, my cleric would have nothing to actually do for those 6 rounds. Secondly, not all of the spells are "deity appropriate" for the purpose here. I wanted something that could be done in one feat, but give each cleric a specific ability as per their deity.

The ability in discussion, of having a period of divine interventuion is not deity specific as presented. So there doesnt really need to be deity specific components of it. Best to keep it simple to start with. As for not having the right spells memorized, thats part of playing a caster, really. If you didnt have the right stuff memorized in the first place, then the feat shouldnt enable one to to kill the enemies after they've discovered this fact. Such a feat should not become a replacement for proper spell preparation, but rather be an ability that allows one to respond for a short period, even after being totally overwhelmed.... simply because one is an epic level cleric/druid, and wields such divine magical power.

Cooldown - definitely. Even better, have it eat up piety points. (With a VC command to turn it off/on)
As for the duration, I simply came up with a somewhat random number. As I think about it, 6 rounds sounds better than 15. I'd say keep it 10 rounds for Torgat followers however, as attacking can take more [or less, depending on what you're fighting and with what weapon] time to kill something than with spells.

Again I am not so much on making deity specific alterations so an epic ability like this. 6 rounds is a good solid chunk of time in any situation, considering the invulnerability. As for peity cost, that does make some sense, but considering the feat investment, its probably not needed, in all honesty. The cooldown is a critical consideration simply because this sort of ability shouldnt be usable in every encounter.... if its been used recently, it should be unavailable for a time... probly only like 4 hours or so.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:24 pm

Now that we have an updated clerical granted spells list, there are some granted spell issues I'd like to address...

As an example, Zolaras clerics get nothing useful for them in their granted spell. Animate Dead creates me a skeleton warrior.... which dies in about 3 hits, if that, and nerfs my XP count while it lives. At level 3/4/5, it makes a tyrantfog zombie which is even less useful. Simply put, the undead summons that you get, just suck overall unless the skeletal guardian got a serious boost. The only half-decent spell that I used to have was Enervation, and now that's gone.

So, I'm going to make a few suggestions for the few deity grated spell lists that I feel are a little lacking compared to the rest in overall usefulness.

Andra - reasoning here is as follows - summons are OK at first, and quickly drop to becoming useless. It only seems fair that every type of 'cleric' gets access to at least two granted spells that are useful at every level to some degree.
So, here's my suggested 'new' list for Andra druids...
Spoiler:


I - Entangle

II - Flora's Plant Armor

III - Flora's Razorleaf Shield

IV - Nature's Balance

V - Creeping Doom


Jewel - reasoning is as follows - Charm spells don't exactly do very much from what I understand, and domination is only workable on a few enemies, as many enemies have mindspell immunity. Exactly how does the enhanced domination work, as that may change the usefulness of the entire list. [Note: I'm having difficulty coming up with better fitting spells, and there may be better ones out there. So if anyone can think of a better one, by all means, say so]

Spoiler:

I - Sound Burst

II - Blindness/Deafness

III - Pacify

IV - Mind Fog

V - (Enhanced Domination, depending on it's effects) or (Mass Blindness/Deafness)



Zolaras... well... I believe I've said enough above...

Spoiler:

I - Ray of Enfeeblement

II - Devastating Bloodloss

III - Cleave Health

IV - Create Skeletal Guardian(Assuming this scales decently with the cleric, otherwise, put Enervation here)

V - Finger of Death


Last edited by evilkittenofdoom on Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Should be finished now =D)
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General Cleric suggestion Thread Empty Re: General Cleric suggestion Thread

Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:36 pm

I kinda wish creeping doom had it's old damage potential again. It was a bit buggy with how the damage was nerfed at lower levels, so the change is good for lower level druids, but at higher levels, it can't achieve the same damage potential. It also has a lotta trouble bypassing DR now given the damage is severely capped.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:41 pm

How's about we start a new thread for that? Wink I'm not to big a fan of the new damage either, but I can also see it being less draining on the server now.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:19 am

Bump for the magic overhaul (some ideas in here have been used... others haven't though and are great ideas to consider)
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