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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:49 am

For assassins, can we please make the damn death attack actually *kill* things?
Paralysis just doesnt cut it for the flavor of the class or its primary ability.... they dont get the
spell list they are supposed to get anyhow... so lets let em actually *assassinate* things, eh?

For rogues.... these folks dont get much at higher levels.... nice feat selection, sure...
but it could be better... the sneak attacks just lose their impact in the face of crit immunity,
and level/ability drain immunity kills the crippling blow ability. Why not give rogues some
"dirty" tricks for epic levels, like a feat called "blinding/choking" powder... has a chance to blind or stun
an enemy based on a fort save... the DC of the save would be based on the rogues
Bluff skill...maybe skill ranks + Cha Mod? so they could be looking at a 43+Cha? not too shabby....
It could even be an AOE with a small radius... maybe a cone.

Sets up the sneak attack really well, but even if not... makes the enemy lose Dex mod, making them
easier to hit... and makes it harder for them to fight back.

Also, for rogues, asassins, and even shadowdancers and monks.... the whole 3/4 AB thing.... they could
gain access to a feat to let them *temporarily* boost their attacks per round and attack
bonus.... not something STR focused like the warhulk semiclass, but a feat usable a few times a day
for 5-10 rounds... something like a "total offense" feat/effect that boosts attacks, attack bonus, but also penalizes
saves and AC.... expertise in reverse, but not sustainable.... for when they *really* need to be able to hit something, but they have to give up defense to do it.
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Post by Ra Cha Chongo Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:25 am

As a great lover of the sneakier type classes, this sounds pretty neat; but wouldn't the choking powder's DC make more sense to be based off of Int (by way of a more cleverly crafted poison) or Dex (for having been able to throw/ apply the poison more effectively)?

Also, what about expanding on Craft (Trap) and making it into Craft (Alchemy) or some such; building a better dragon egg, home brew poisons, player-made exploding darts and arrows, and all that sort of stuff?
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:29 am

The reason i went with CHA was cuz its the stat for bluff.... and also basing a DC off skill ranks+Dex would be ungodly... i was tyring to keep the max DC in balance with the DCs of spells cast by casters with all 3 spell focus feats. 9th level spell plus 50 stat mod and all 3 focus feats gives a DC of 45... i wouldn't wanna see rogues kicking out much higher DCs... especially on something that ignores most defenses.

If as rogue wanted to get a higher DC than 43 or so, they would need to go heavily into CHA, and put gear bonuses into it... it could *still* get ridiculous, but it wouldnt be as easy as basing it off their primary stat.
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Post by Elhanan Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:38 am

As a lover of Rogues, I believe that things are pretty good as is; more so perhaps for those Players practiced in the Hard Core rules. Currently, there is Choking Powder, Stinking Clouds wands, Darkness scrolls, traps, and many other ways of setting an ambush. The problem I face is not getting myself and the party caught within the detonations and effects under HC rules. Razz

And we already have m/c options, as well as UMD to temp boost BAB.

Assassins may need some luv for Death Attack; perhaps; maybe. But as I hate instant death via Dev Crit, the DC would need to be far, far less, IMO.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:40 am

I disagree, beccause death attack only works when a sneak attack would, so it's not as easily usable as Dev crit is. It balances out IMHO
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Post by Elhanan Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:51 am

Sneak Attack fires frequently, and for numerous reasons; some mentioned in the Rogue part of my post. And the added dmg seems to be balanced within the structure of the game sytem.

I can see a small Vorpal type DC being added to the DA. But it would seem to ruin the party play here to dupe the Dev Crit-like feature which already saps the fun for many.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:00 am

It's not too difficult to get sneak attacks to fire off, and yes, death attacks fire off when sneak attacks do, HOWEVER... Death-Attack will fire off only when the target is 'not engaged in combat'. Basicly, the first strike of combat (assuming it's the assassin getting the first strike). Then, and only then, will the death attack calculations be made.

Every other instance of "death attack" you'll see scrolling over your assassin character's head isn't truly a "death attack", it's a sneak attack for purpose of game mechanics, with no fort save being fired off.

Example... Assassin sneaks into area, and attacks a target baddie from stealth. That first flurry in the combat round will be true death attacks, where the target must make a fort save. After that first flurry, when the target becomes aware of and faces the attacking assassin, the "death attacks" cease to function as death attacks and function as sneak attacks.

Likewise, assassin sneaks into an area, and finds his buddy already engaged with a baddie. Assassin sneaks up on the baddie and attacks from stealth. No true death attack will fire off, only sneak attacks (even though the combat log says "death attack). The target's already engaged in combat, so no death attack DC goodness for the assassin.
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Post by Ra Cha Chongo Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:10 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:... Death-Attack will fire off only when the target is 'not engaged in combat'...

I'd forgotten about that one (I generally only remember when I think to myself, "Ooh, I don't have any assassins yet, I'll make one of those!", look up the article on nwn wiki and go "Oh... right, never mind").

Yes, given that information, not to mention the fact that the target has to be susceptible to sneak attack and paralysis, I totally support making death attacks actually kill stuff Rogues/Assassins Icon_biggrin
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Post by RustyDios Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:51 pm

Assassin death attacks actually serving death .... ... sounds cool..

....but how about a different approach ?... ... why not give assassins a new feat at level up (usable assassin lev/day) which basically has the same effect when activated as "Shivani's Beheading Blade" ... (Enchanting their main weapon with a vorpal DC16 tempory property, duration based off INT (studied knowledge of the enemy) /or/ WIS (Innate knowledge of the enemy) /or/ Lev x Minutes .... .... thus the assassin could "choose" when to use their death attack powers.... ...


And an idea for a "Dirty Trick" for epic rogues.... how about a "your-not-immune-to-my-SA's-hahaha" feat/power.. not sure if that's possible.. the only way I could think to do it would be to calculate how much damage the SA "would have inflicted" and apply the damage directly scripted ((SA and SA immunity is hardcoded, so a workaround would be needed)) .....
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Post by Alundaio Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:13 pm

I'm for assassins being beefed up some. Rogues are alright, you just need to know what your doing. But I do agree here in Aenea things are a bit unbalanced with almost every class being similar due to Reincarnation and Ascension so all the classes pretty much need tweaked some to make them more diverse. Pure Rogue isn't really useful here because of all the added spells and resistances for Spellcasters and other classes. Giving them somthing similar to Feint in NWN2 would be a great trait. I do like the choking powder idea however. In reality though, Rogues are suppose to be party support and flank the enemy when they are busy with the tanks.I wouldn't mind being able to Sneak Attack crit immune creatures. Would be quite useful in PvP and towards Dave's crazy creations. In NWN2 there is Epic Precision which pretty much does that. In PnP there are spells that strip creatures of their immunity for a few rounds.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:23 pm

Alundaio wrote:I'm for assassins being beefed up some. Rogues are alright, you just need to know what your doing. But I do agree here in Aenea things are a bit unbalanced with almost every class being similar due to Reincarnation and Ascension so all the classes pretty much need tweaked some to make them more diverse. Pure Rogue isn't really useful here because of all the added spells and resistances for Spellcasters and other classes. Giving them somthing similar to Feint in NWN2 would be a great trait. I do like the choking powder idea however. In reality though, Rogues are suppose to be party support and flank the enemy when they are busy with the tanks.I wouldn't mind being able to Sneak Attack crit immune creatures. Would be quite useful in PvP and towards Dave's crazy creations. In NWN2 there is Epic Precision which pretty much does that. In PnP there are spells that strip creatures of their immunity for a few rounds.

Im not in favor of rogues being able to totally ignore crit immunity, even on a short duration basis...
but perhaps being able to get *some* of their sneak attack dice through it would be more
balanced.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:43 pm

Crit immunity is a LOT harder to get than sneak attacks, so being able to bypass it completely would be unbalanced.... I can see bveing frustrated by it, however, and a way to at least get *something* thru, even at heavily reduced effectiveness would be approproate.... remember though, that besides monsters whose creature types are crit immune... VERY few things have crit immunity in Aenea.... more things have True Sight than crit immunity... and there are only a handful of those.... Crit immunity *should* be extremely hard to get around.

Also crit immunity nerfs things like dev crit, too... and it should... but dev crit takes a LOT more investment to get than sneak attacks.... so as I said, if sneak attacks are to get thru crit immunity at all, it needs to be at heavily reduced effectiveness.

Maybe instead of 1d6.... just an extra +1dmg per die of sneak attack.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:11 pm

Just had a brainstorm:

So instead of normal sneak attacks being able to get damage past sneak immune or crit immune enemies... I think a more balanced way to ensure that such a thing is restricted to Epic Level sneak attackers only, and requires an appropriate investment to offset the power of such an attack....

Make a new Feat, that can be taken multiple times... requires 10 dice of sneak attack (so you have to *focus* on sneak attack classes to get it) and each time it is purchased, the character can do 1d6 damage from sneak attacks even to sneak/crit immune enemies... make it a general feat, so it cannot be taken with bonus feats, and that should limit the maximum to 7d6. VERY solid, but requires *heavy* investment.

EDIT: or better, make it a bonus feat ONLY... so you have to keep taking sneak attack class levels in order to raise it. It would make sneak attacking those immune baddies possible, but should require a heavy, heavy investment.


Last edited by daveyeisley on Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed bad math skill typo)
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:24 pm

If it's available only as a bonus feat, it would only be available for a total of 4, not 7 times for a pure class rogue, if improved sneak attack feats work towards the 20d6 requirement. If improved sneak attacks wouldn't count, it would only be available to take once at the 38th level general feat. Not sure off hand about the assassin and blackguard sneak dice, but I think they have less than a rogue overall.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:30 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:If it's available only as a bonus feat, it would only be available for a total of 4, not 7 times for a pure class rogue, if improved sneak attack feats work towards the 20d6 requirement. If improved sneak attacks wouldn't count, it would only be available to take once at the 38th level general feat. Not sure off hand about the assassin and blackguard sneak dice, but I think they have less than a rogue overall.

Doh! I totally did my math wrong... please consider the "20d6" sneak attack requirement a typo....

My intent was for the requirement to make it so that only level 21+ *focused* sneak attackers could qualify.... but I somehow caluclated that 20 levels of rogue at +1d6 per 2 levels came out to 20d6 LOL... sorry Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz

so yeah... 10d6 required to qualify... and available as a bonus feat only sounds approrpiate to me... so capped at 5d6 for rogues, and i think other sneak attackers, too.
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Post by Alundaio Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:08 pm

Epic Precision allows HALVED Sneak attack damage on Crit Immune Enemies. I think that would be Totally fair.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:11 pm

Alundaio wrote:Epic Precision allows HALVED Sneak attack damage on Crit Immune Enemies. I think that would be Totally fair.

Not when you count in the improved sneak attack dice methinks... adding 10d6 sneak to every attack on a flanked crit immune enemy is just too much, sorry. 7d6 was pushing it... but would have at least required 7 extra feats on top of the 19 or 20 rogue levels.

I have to disagree, rather strongly at that.

5d6 is a LOT of damage for every attack, and WAAAYbetter than what rogues get now... lets not overdo it.
Smile


Last edited by daveyeisley on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:31 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : edited for bad feat counting)
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Post by Alundaio Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:11 am


  • I don't think anyone wastes traits on Improved Sneak Attack. Why take them if you can have Self-Concealment? Or Great Dex? No one will ever take Improved Sneak Attack 10 times...that's not even possible in a Pure Rogue Build. 20d6 halved for a Pure Rogue build would be fair if limited. Pure Rogues are useless on this server. There are no Locks, Traps or anything you can hide from that require a Pure Rogue. Fighters bash chests and any door...spells detect and disarm all the traps...most dangerous creatures are crit immune...Rogues AB and Damage are severly low to any other class.


  • Now how about say 3 times a day a Rogue can Force a sneak attack that does halved sneak attack damage even if the creature is immune? Is that more fair? It would be like Fient and Epic Precision combined. It would probably be alot easier to script that way too.



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Post by daveyeisley Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:16 am

Alundaio wrote:

  • I don't think anyone wastes traits on Improved Sneak Attack. Why take them if you can have Self-Concealment? Or Great Dex? No one will ever take Improved Sneak Attack 10 times...that's not even possible in a Pure Rogue Build. 20d6 halved for a Pure Rogue build would be fair if limited. Pure Rogues are useless on this server. There are no Locks, Traps or anything you can hide from that require a Pure Rogue. Fighters bash chests and any door...spells detect and disarm all the traps...most dangerous creatures are crit immune...Rogues AB and Damage are severly low to any other class.


  • Now how about say 3 times a day a Rogue can Force a sneak attack that does halved sneak attack damage even if the creature is immune? Is that more fair? It would be like Fient and Epic Precision combined. It would probably be alot easier to script that way too.




I totally agree on the AB issue, hence why I suggested means for rogues to temporarily boost their AB to hit things.

And yes, I agree 3 times per day forcing a single sneak attack at half damage would be perfectly balanced.

If I could have a rogue sneak attacking for 10d6 against *anything* and 20d6 against *most* things... I would get HiPS on an item, and go to town. True Sight would be the only nemesis to that... and its not common enough to kill the build... and I think it would be worth using all those feats to do. Killing most enemies in one round? Where do I sign?

There are a number of traps that can *only* be disarmed by rogues, and also a few doors that only rogues can pick which cannot be bashed. There could be more... but this would be exceeding frustrating for non-rogues, hence why it is not common here.

I have even run into a few traps that as Crid, a 38th level caster, I could not disarm with Find Remove Traps due to the level check that Rogues/Assassins 787378 added.

As for most dangerous baddies being crit immune... there are dangerous baddies who arent, like the Elder Beholder.... but if he has a rogue flanking him, or a dev critter in front of him... he isnt dangerous. Immunities on the really tough bad guys are reasonable and appropriate... if they were found around every corner, then I could see your point.... but thats not the case.
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Post by Svair Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:52 am

My two cents:

10d6 averages to about about 35 damage. That's a far cry from being excessive. It will not one-shot baddies appropriate to a 40th level PC. Might as well remove many spells that add multiple dies of damage or add properties to weapons if you don't want to be a hypocrite.

Combined with the necessary prerequisites to make a sneak attack (especially if rendered mute by "True Seeing", can be absorbed in part by Resistances, etc..), it's not that much.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:57 am

My assassin took a couple improved sneak attack feats. Razz
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:23 am

Svair wrote:My two cents:

10d6 averages to about about 35 damage. That's a far cry from being excessive. It will not one-shot baddies appropriate to a 40th level PC. Might as well remove many spells that add multiple dies of damage or add properties to weapons if you don't want to be a hypocrite.

Combined with the necessary prerequisites to make a sneak attack (especially if rendered mute by "True Seeing", can be absorbed in part by Resistances, etc..), it's not that much.

35 on each attack is a lot, truly... the wepaon damage spells each get damage resistance apllied serpately, and for a caster, they top out at 8d6. Resistances and immunties often drop them below a total output of even a scant 10 damage and many times none at all. Elemental resistances are also *far* more commonthan crit immunity. Thats a BIG balancing factor.

Sneak attack is applied in a lump sum, and can easily bust through all but the epic warding damage reduction.... on every attack. 20d6 sneaks will even punch through epic warding. If you can do 10d6 even thru crit immunity its overpowered.
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Post by Kefrem Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:23 am

I to am a lover or rogues....long ago in first edition dnd you actually had an *assassinate* chart you rolled on when doin your dirty work....i was dismayed when they completely removed it and gave them just a worthless die dmg for it.

I mean you sneak into a room...the guy is helpless...you attack and do 10 pts of dmg? duh? I would LOVE to see something like maybe..at a certain level in assassin you gained dev crit or something to simulate thier skill in assassination.

Not sure how it could be implemented without unbalancing some stuff...as if someone took rogue/assassin....youd get sneak attacks with insta kills piled on top of it.

Spyder(my darkelf assassin) rips thru stuff but thats cause i focused and weapon finesse'd her ab's thru the roof...but i had to take some shadowdancer to get hips so i could survive ..otherwise i just kept gettin eaten alive by stuff at her level.

Maybe it could only be used while hidden...thus you couldnt use it in open combat...and give hips at least a use other then as a combat breaking maneuver.
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Post by Alundaio Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:14 pm

Like suggested above, how about a more useful Dirty Fighting feat that will act as a couple time use per day Short-ranged spell that will teleport the PC behind the enemy and do a forced sneak-attack. It would have to be a short ranged action so it would look like the Rogue Flipped over the enemy and backstabbed him. Make the feat require like 25 dex or somthing. Or even make it a Rogue's Bonus feat. 
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Post by Kalipuppy Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:55 pm

I would suggest that the solution we adopt [i] try to build upon Class features already in-game, and [ii] be easily scripted.

Rogues and Assassins have specialities in traps and poisons (respectively). A cursory peek at the poison and trap .2da files reveal that scripts are readily available for us to modify. Thus, why not enhance traps and poisons so that epic level Roges and Assassins can be more effective? And, at the same time, it would give added incentives for these classes to pursue their skills in these specialities.

For instance, a poison could be scripted to temporarily remove a creature's immunity to Sneak Attacks and/or lowers its Dexterity/Dodge AC. And this same poison could be scripted into a trap's affect as well. Thus, the Assassins could use this poison on their weapons and Rogues could lay down traps laced with this poison. In both cases, there's a built-in limitation to both the duration and occassions for use.

Oh, by the way, I've just began my adventures here (right before this Christmas) and this is my first post. I just think you're all such smart, clever people and your collective input has made a terrifically fun world.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:58 pm

I'd like to see XP from trap kills myself, if anything.
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Post by Svair Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:29 pm

Kalipuppy wrote:I would suggest that the solution we adopt [i] try to build upon Class features already in-game, and [ii] be easily scripted...

I like your suggestions.

And welcome to Aenea!
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Post by Maeglin Dubh Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:51 pm

Traps and poison are something I'd very much like to see improved, since I've had a bear of a time even finding a single dose of poison for my assassin to smear on his daggers.

He has Poison Use, but no poison to use. And it makes me sad.
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Post by Ra Cha Chongo Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:22 pm

I've always felt that poisons were pretty lame in NWN (just one of those things that didn't translate well to the computer), but poisons that strip immunities? Now there's an idea. Maybe they could even be "mystical" type poisons that got around general poison immunity?
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:01 pm

I can agree with ignoring poison immunity, only if they don't work on constructs, undead, oozes etc. Stuff that can't be poisoned cause they... well... just can't Very Happy

But, yes removing immunities would make rogues FAR more useful and potent, especially if they can remove critical hit/sneak attack immunities.... Twisted Evil
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:22 am

I like some of the ideas on traps and poisons. Good stuff Smile

Welcome to the forums as well, Kalipuppy!

The traps that lower or remove Dex/Dodge would work well. Maybe a "stunning" trap similar to the choking/blinding powder idea. Maybe even increase the area of effect on some of the more powerful traps, too.

And damage traps... I didnt know they dont give XP for kills... thats totally lame.

As for poisons, we just really need to see more usable poisons in game. Ability damage, regular damage (probly acid), and maybe some poisons that can weaken damage reduction and/or lower natural AC.

One caution: stripping of immunities is something I think we may want
to steer clear from. Better to work around them then have a way to take
them away. One of the balances to sneak attacks and poisons is that on
some enemies they just arent supposed to work.
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:11 am

Another idea.... a correllary to "poisons" which i think, while maybe not quite as good as assassins... i think rogues should be good at poison, too to some reasonable extent....

what about alchemy stuff that isnt a biological poison, but rather can do things such as work around undead/constructs immunity to ability damage.... perhaps not a 100% chance on every hit, and have it be a temporary penalty to a stat rather than ability damage...... some chance to reduce the CON or DEX of such a target... or their ac, or their damage reduction... using alchemy instead of poison? could be delivered in AoE trap form, or in a grenade weapon.... or a weapon coating (thought that might not be a good thing for the weapon come to think of it)
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Post by Elhanan Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:28 am

I agree that Immunities should remain in place. If one simply wishes to bypass SA and Crit Immunity, then play a Ranger.

I also believe the bulk of the SA system is fine as is, though adding more augmenting feats like Crippling Strike could be sought.

The ideas that wish to augment the Skills of the Rogue - the class strength - appear to be good ones.
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Post by Kalipuppy Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:14 pm

I concur that Sneak Attack (SA) Immunities shouldn't be disregarded. However, it appears that most everyone agrees that epic level Rogues & Assassins need an edge when it comes to encounters with creatures having Immunities to Crits & SA (not to mention Poison Immunity to boot).

Two lines of thought have emerged thus far:
[1] Augment feats available to Rogues and Assassins:

  • Perhaps something like an Epic Dirty Fighting that would be the inverse of Expertise, thus increase Attack bonus (ToHit) while sacrificing AC. (apparently there is a need for overcoming very high AC)
  • My favorite would be "Devious Dexterity" that would apply the PC's Dexterity Bonus to their weapon damage for a number of Rounds equal to their Dex Bonus. And the number of times-per-day could equal (you guessed it) their Dex Bonus. (similar to "Devine Might" that Clerics/Paladins get using their Charisma)
  • (After thought) Devious Sneak Attacks - identical to the above "Devious Dexterity" except it uses the PC's number of Sneak Attacks in lieu of Dexterity. Thus, for each 1d6 of SA the PC gets 1 extra damage for a number of rounds equal to their SA, and number of times-per-day equal to their SA.
  • Note: Both of the above "Devious" feats would apply only when the creature is immune to SA.


[2] Incorporate Poisons or Alchemy with which Rogues/Assassins can apply to their weapons (and even their traps perhaps?):

  • Applying Ability Damage
  • Reducing Damage Reduction
  • Reducing AC
  • Stunning
  • Blinding
  • Hit Pt Damage
  • etc.
  • Lastly, should be effective despite Creatures with poison immunity.


So far - so good, right?
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:13 pm

Damn, you guys ... this stuff is good! Sorry I don't have anything constructive to add, as intricate mechanics were never my strong suite, but someone has to chop the celery, so I say "great ideas, everyone!"

Gotta love groupthink!

Oh, yeah, one more thing - welcome aboard, Kalipuppy!
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:28 am

Good summary Smile

I will add that I like the "devious sneak attacks" much more than the "devious dexterity". Always a good idea to avoid having the primary stat directly affect too many aspects of combat.
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Post by half_evil_333 Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:28 pm

So, first things first: I'm new to this pw (and forum as well) and actually despite playing nwn for as long as it exist new to this whole pw-thing as such. Main reasons for this are 1) beeing spooked off by all that mmo-looting-competition-and-getting-annoyed-by-spam-bots stuff out there (beeing a PnP-DM for about 12 years now I just can't see the fun in running around focusing solely on farming xp and looting, hope with a NWN-PW this will be a bit more interesting) and 2) looking through the forums / sites of various pw's getting the impression those guys take it a bit too serious and somehow forget about the hole thing beeing actually a pc-game, not a PnP session, thus the whole OC / IC thing is pretty overdone
The above said, my first impression of this PW is that it's pretty awesome, especially considering the fact that this whole thing is pretty much set up by a single person, kudos to Rogues/Assassins 787378 Rogues/Assassins Icon_exclaim
I really look forward to spend some hours playing my favorite video game on this PW Rogues/Assassins Icon_smile

No, at last, to the topic: Although this is somewhat from the PoV of a PnP-DM and not from that of a player with an epic level rogue - Immunity to Critical Damage / Sneak Attack should very much only be a trait of creatures that either do not live in a biological way, so they don't have something vital to hit or that are so alien to most beings that no one has an idea where their vital parts are, so it's just logical (I know, stupid word in conjunction with fantasy
fiction, but here it applies IMHO) that they can't be hurt / damaged in that way (that is also the reason I never liked the fact that this Immunity could be applied to items in NWN, also this may be needed to counter the stackable improved critical / keen weapon system).
The second point is, in my opinion, rogues just shouldn't be able to face a great wyrm single handed, that just isn't the scope of that class I think, although that class' rp-scope is hard to implement / play in a video game and more so probably on a PW.

And finally a serious question by me: is it really the case that set trap kills don't give XP? If so, my whole rogue build I just startet to play in aenea is pretty much unplayable, since he's pretty bad in combat -.-
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:32 pm

In default NWN, no traps don't give XP.

The Amethyst Dragon recently tweaked the traps to give XP for kills, so trap away Smile
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Post by half_evil_333 Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:43 pm

Wow, that's a fast reply, thx^^
As for the traps: I've never used the set trap skill before, set trap and pick pocket were always the skills I completely ignored with my rogue builds both in nwn and in pnp Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz
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Post by Alundaio Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:55 pm

Welcome, good to see a new player. Yeah most creatures in Aenea do not have sneak/crit immunity, except for the usual undead, contructs, bosses etc.

Did you ask if KILLS from traps give xp? They do. It's a bit hard to understand some of what you said, you seem exicited Very Happy.

Here in Aenea you really don't have to worry about player competition for loot or bots like in an MMORPG or some hack N' slash PW like Higher Grounds. Though I hope you aren't put off by Aenea's custom content. Alot of what you see were either suggested or brainstormed by The Amethyst Dragon himself. Not all are neccessarily true to D&D rules.

There are alot of problems that existed in vanilla NWN that were somewhat addressed here in Aenea. What was being dicussed about Rogues is that they needed some tweaks. In default NWN they are crap and pointless to make a Pure Rogue. Alot of the cool things rogues were able to do in PnP aren't really present in Nwn.

I'm glad The Amethyst Dragon gave traps a good boost and making them easy to craft. It's alot of fun. Though I would still like to see a Feint attack given to them. Being able to force a sneak-attack, even if they aren't flat-footed, a certain amount of times per day would be a nice boost to rogues.

You are right. Rogues shouldn't be able to solo things by themselves. I've stated before they are a support class. But as you will find out in Aenea once you reach epic levels that you could pretty much kill anything quite easily. But this is only because The Amethyst Dragon never really addressed Spawns for Epic Levels. He is currently working on a new area that will certainly put us in our place...The Great Hall of Zolaras, lol.

Oh also you'll find a nice balance between people Talking In-Character and Out of character. This place isn't full of RP-Nazis.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:22 pm

Another reason why all classes can solo here is consideration that not everyone has the opportunity to party up or necessarily wants to either (party or solo, everyone's welcome). On one hand that does make things a bit easier... but if you happen to log on and there's one or nobody else on, you can still go out and do stuff and not sit around waiting for a tank to show up.
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Post by Alundaio Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:47 pm

I like a challenge though. One reason I try to kill orcs (being a rogue) at lvls 3 - 8 and then jump on beholders, lol. Of course you need to gather the right equipment before you do somthing so brash. This time around I had a blast blowing up orcs with my fire traps. Very Happy And with Alundaio, I use to fly to the sniper towers, take out the archers, and then snipe the orcs! And if they decided to come bash my skull in, I just flew away! Good times.


Last edited by Alundaio on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : dislexia)
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Post by half_evil_333 Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:10 am

Alundaio wrote:It's a bit hard to understand some of what you said, you seem exicited Very Happy.

- That's most likely due to my poor english (german guy here). Reading and understanding is no problem, writing or speaking myself due to serious lack of exercising is Rogues/Assassins Icon_redface. Well, at least I don't sound like some bad movie nazi-villain or weird video game npc (Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines: Inquisitor Grunfeld Bach anyone? Rogues/Assassins Icon_lol) Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz.

As for the improvement of rogues: Maybe some kind of feat that makes certain creatures vulnerable to sneak attacks would be a nice way to do it? For example, I would love to play a rogue specialised in hunting the undead by taking a feature that allows him to sneak attack undead creatures Rogues/Assassins Icon_smile. That way rogues maybe would be more effective in battle, but must spend feats for it and it won't work in general, just for chosen creature, kinda like the rangers favored enemy. Also, in pnp dnd there is a feat "Opportunity Sneak Attack" (or something like that) that makes attacks of opportunity also sneak attacks by default for rogues, it's an epic feat I think, not sure about it though. Could also be an improvement, although I have no idea if those kind of feats could be implementet in nwn at all, since I don't know anything about scripting.
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Post by Amethyst347 Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

half_evil_333 wrote:
Alundaio wrote:It's a bit hard to understand some of what you said, you seem exicited Rogues/Assassins Icon_biggrin.

- That's most likely due to my poor english (german guy here). Reading and understanding is no problem, writing or speaking myself due to serious lack of exercising is Rogues/Assassins Icon_redface. Well, at least I don't sound like some bad movie nazi-villain or weird video game npc (Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines: Inquisitor Grunfeld Bach anyone? Rogues/Assassins Icon_lol) Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz.

Nah, you don't sound like a villain. Everyone knows all evil bad guys have British accents. Rogues/Assassins Icon_wink

And welcome! I used to play Diablo II online back in the day, and am well aware of all the rubbish you can find on MMOPRGs, so I was a bit hesitant when I first started playing here too, but everyone is really lovely and friendly and helpful. And even though I'm not a super-skilled player or very good at RP, I've never been made to feel like a stupid n00b or whatever, so I'm sure you'll be fine. Rogues/Assassins Icon_smile
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:33 am

half_evil_333,

Welcome aboard! I speak for all the other DMs when I say that if you need anything, anything at all, don't hesitate to ask, either on the forums or in-game, player or DM. We've got a fantastical playerbase (everyone is knowledgeable and friendly), we've got a great DM team, and of course, who could forget the big man himself, The Amethyst Dragon! Again, welcome aboard, and I hope your stay is a pleasant one!

As far as your apprehensions, I understand where you're coming from - I felt the same way when I ventured into the scary realm of PWs those many years ago. But I landed here, and have been here ever since. Aenea is truly a great place where great things happen.

And your suggestions for the rogues are quite interesting ... my main PC right now is a rogue/fighter/rogue combo - personally, I just ignore the traps/pick pockets stuff and go straight for the knives. So if the class was tweaked, it would be worth it to fire up a new rogue and play a bit more ... well, rogue-like, I guess! And, of course, if anything can be done script-wise in NwN, The Amethyst Dragon is the one to do it! He's full of great things, and is always very receptive to suggestions.
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Post by Lasombra Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:46 pm

half_evil_333 wrote:Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines: Inquisitor Grunfeld Bach anyone? Rogues/Assassins Icon_lol
Lovely guy. The way he pronounced "Lacroix" made my Tremere spit her dead lungs out.
But hey, I love that game Rogues/Assassins Icon_biggrin

Eric of Atrophy wrote:if you need anything, anything at all, don't hesitate to ask
Can Amatereasu haz 50M eggzpeerancez nao? Pretty please with sugar on top?
Sorry, couldn't help myself Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz

On-topic:
Although I'm not particularly fond of rogue-like classes, I feel they do need a major boost. Even in a party, they usually aren't nearly as useful as other support classes and I found there rarely is a good occasion to party up here(or is it just me and my timezone? Rogues/Assassins Icon_lol). I realize I cluttered the board with this post not providing anything constructive(there's two of us now, Eric Rogues/Assassins Icon_wink ), but I just wanted to take my vote and say: YES to rogues getting more power.
Lasombra
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Post by Amethyst347 Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:03 pm

I think it'd be cool if there was a rouge-type sneaky quest or two that your PC could do (and if there already is, then I obviously haven't found it yet and please ignore me).

I remember entering a 'rogue-themed' area a while back, and hoping that my sneaky PC would find something interesting to do there, but was a bit bummed to find nothing going on. Rogues/Assassins Icon_sad

I quite enjoy playing sneaky rogue types, but have found that their skills are almost not needed in Aenea. UMD is pretty cool though. Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz
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Post by RustyDios Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:18 pm

How about an area that strips away invis on entry (and periodically) with ultra powerful "deaf" enemies, that rely on sight... thus bringing the rogue hiding in the shadows style play in... and they must NOT be immune to SA's... ...

I also like the addition of the feats for "Bone Smashing Sneak Attack", and others that apply to Constructs and generally SA/Crit immune enemies... ... but I think sneak attack (and what it can effect) are Hardcoded into the game engine, so The Amethyst Dragon won't be able to change anything unless he comes up with some miraculous work around....
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:38 pm

Welcome Abaord as well half_evil_333! Hope you enjoy the World as much as we all have, and that it captures your imagination! Smile

As for rogues, I agree they need a boost... I think there are ways to do it that don't involve ignoring immunities (after all thats a large part of the class balance that a rogues main offensive ability doesnt work on everything), some of the suggestions above would keep the theme of rogues not being uber-melee death gods, but still allow them to have the tricks they need up their sleeves to deal with more powerful enemies.
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:48 pm

Lasombra wrote:Can Amatereasu haz 50M eggzpeerancez nao? Pretty please with sugar on top?
Sorry, couldn't help myself Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz
You've been hanging around that evil kitten again, haven't you? Rogues/Assassins Icon_twisted
Lasombra wrote:I realize I cluttered the board with this post not providing anything constructive(there's two of us now, Eric Rogues/Assassins Icon_wink )...
Who you callin' nonconstructive? Destructive, perhaps ... instructive, never! Rogues/Assassins Icon_razz Regardless, give those rogues more options, that's what I say! Extra cool feats would rock, if it's possible - and if it is, The Amethyst Dragon is the one to do it!
Eric of Atrophy
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