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Post by daveyeisley Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:13 pm

If PC vamps are "dead" enough to burn in the sun, I think it would be appropriate for them to not need to breathe. Would help for making the drawbacks a little less painful, especially at lower levels.
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Post by Anthroplayer Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:39 am

Remember vamps die if submerged in water, or if they enter running water. Which makes it pointless to go swimming and hold their breath, heehee!
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Post by daveyeisley Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:12 pm

True vamps, yeah, I know. Water bad.

PC vamps in aenea arent true vamps tho. They are only dead enough to burn in daylight, and take dmg from silver, and are partially vulnerable to divine dmg.

PC vamps dont get the "undead" subtype that comes loading with a gabillion immunities. They are immune to negative negative dmg, and healed by inflict spells. thats about it.

Basically, at current PC vamps have all the drawbacks of being true vamps (except for the water bit), and only a few of the benefits. One that would make a lot of sense for them to get, since they arent too dead to survive underwater,would be not needing to breathe.
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Post by Ra Cha Chongo Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:27 pm

daveyeisley wrote:Basically, at current PC vamps have all the drawbacks of being true vamps (except for the water bit), and only a few of the benefits.

Totally agree; they're have been a few threads I remember having chimed in on grousing about the iniquities of the semi-undead.
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Post by Kefrem Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:05 pm

ive always considered our vamps more like the character blade...cept we burn up in sunlight. Its one of the reasons i retired my 25th level vamp,...he wasnt fun to play Sad
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Post by daveyeisley Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:28 pm

Kefrem wrote:ive always considered our vamps more like the character blade...cept we burn up in sunlight. Its one of the reasons i retired my 25th level vamp,...he wasnt fun to play Sad

I feel ya. What was, for me, the most infuriating part of Gabriel.... was the low levels.... my god.... the disadvantages are just so damn unforgiving. Youre mostly stuck in caves, and once the enemies get +1 weapons... your main defense, DR +1/5, is useless... go outside... and you become toasty real fast.

Healing in combat with blood is better than it used to be, but if you burn a lot of your stock and are low on cash, and die several times... in order to restock you have to farm enemies a good bit weaker than you for blood (the drop rate can at times seem low), or loot to sell to buy more from butch... and while doing so your XP gain slows a lot.

At higher levels with some planning, it gets a lot more manageable.... but I think there are a number of us who agree that it never really does balance out.

One thing that sucks, and has sucked, and will suck pretty much forever.... is trying to party up with non-nightwalkers.... when they travel to an area outside during the day.... you essentially either lose your cloak slot and its benefits (and end up burning thru one or more cloaks of shadows in order to stay with the group) or you are effectively out of the fun until the sun goes down or the weather changes.

Dont get me wrong. Cloak of shadows = good. As is the nightwalker parasol (blackout umbrella). But both of them force a vamp to sacrifice either their weapon, or their cloak... and that can be pretty arrgravating, especially when the cloak provides an important benefit like a Cha boost (spell slots, etc).

There may be points to be made regarding whether the sun damage is needful, but certainly we all agree that it makes some sense, even if we wish it would be removed or reduced... and certainly there are tools in game to help with it.

I think mainly, my issue is, the tools dont go quite far enough to make it still fun. They do come close, but for instance.... cloak of shadows.... doesnt last long enough I think. It would also be awesome to have something similar to the cloak that doesnt use a gear slot, whether it be an ioun, or a rod, or a vc command.

While all that is what it is, my idea was just targeted at tying to give vamps a small boost unrelated to the sun issue (no need for air)... as I am fairly sure The Amethyst Dragon is already looking at the sun situation and ways to improve it.
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Post by daveyeisley Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:22 pm

A somewhat off-topic brainstorm on vamps:

Hrm... what about a general feat that vamp PCs can take that will make partying with non-vamps easier as pertains to the sun?

It could be available at low levels, but the effect could scale with character level. Then you have a more convenient and more economical way of warding sundeath, and maybe with ascension it can improve further (but only if you have the feat)... so ascension isnt required, but would factor in nicely.

As long as the effect was worth the feat, I think it would be very popular for vamp PCs.
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Post by Kefrem Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

I think that instead of making em more powerful to compensate for the disads...maybe we could tone em back a bit...and relieve some of those horrible sun disads. Maybe as i mentioned above....make it more like the "Blade" character...make them instead of true vampires...make em vampyr's...those born of vampires and humans(or elves)

It would then make em more party friendly...and make more sense roleplay lol...im so sure that out of the blue they go and find a vampire and team up with him. *hey mr vampire...lets go adventure!, *sure...let me suck some of your blood first!*

uh.....lol

Maybe The Amethyst Dragon could work a guild around vampire hunters...and the vampyr's could be the ones that iniated it long ago, like a clan of vampyr's that now hunt the very parentage that created em.

They could still be vulnerable to the *lesser* disads...like crosses/turning and so on...but gain resistance to sunlight...maybe take a small amount of dmg a round instead of a bbq. They could then also lose the +1/5 dmg reduc and one or two other abilities to make up for it.

At least then it would make em *fit* more into a roleplay background for the world and even make them viable to play. I myself have been dying to play a velanmorg(elven vampire for those who dont know) but having to sit in a cave 50% of the time and watch tv while i wait for sundown just bored me to tears. When i made my first vampire i retired one character took the xp and poored it into him to get him to level 25....played for bout a week...re-retired the vamp and created union instead. Sad

Anyway thats just my take on the vamp thing...btw crideas...i just read that *oh yeah? well i have a freakin moonbase*...comment on your sig...bout died laughing Razz I still think its some of my best work Razz

You need another says something like.....

Mod size....3.4 gig....
Mod size without my moonbase.....1.4 gig Razz
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:07 pm

I'm not for changing their current abilities, benefits etc. I am for giving them a little bit of a boost. Change the DR from 5/+1 to Damage Resistances or increase the +X to something more reasonable.

How about decreasing the sun damage intervals from per round to per 5 rounds?

Giving them an Ioun Stone for sun damage mitigation sounds good as well. Giving them no-air requirements is also reasonable IMHO. How about having a natural 1 vampiric regeneration?
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:41 pm

A round is 6 seconds though, so making it fire off faster would suck (and not in that good vampire way)

Personally, I don't have that much issue with sun damage. I found it a great challenge. I can see how it would be frustrating for some though. I can also see how a vampire mage character is at a HUGE advantage over say, a vampire barbarian character (skill points to spare for healing skill, lower HP so easier to heal up that low HP with blood, able to teleport to dragonspawns to stock up on dragon blood).

I would suggest....

Make blood healing more effective. Adding character level to the HP healed equation would be a good idea, that extra 1 to 40 HP can make a difference, even for high HP classes like barbarian). Or maybe even go as far as 1d100+modifiers rather than 1d20.

Shadowcloaks... my ONE issue with these isn't so much that they run out of charages, but that they completely go byebye when worn out.

Perhaps tweak them to NOT be destroyed when out of charges? For classes that can't recharge their cloaks, they're still at a disadvantage, but for those who can, they could keep just one cloak and recharge it as needed rather than having to carry around 4 or 5 "spares" that clutter the inventory.

This could also open up the possibility for some PCs to do dwarf/maker quests to have their cloaks upgraded, making the cloak slot a bit more useful.

Sun damage blockers... Shadowshield, atraum's armor of darkness... it would be great if these two could block sun damage Smile (and if they do... I migh suggest that slight tweak to shade triggers be made so passing through a shade trigger doesn't 'negate' the protection from the spells... perhaps when entering/exiting the trigger, it checks to see if the PC is already protected, and doesn't change the "in shade" variable on the PC).
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Post by Ra Cha Chongo Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:50 pm

Sun damage as it is has never bothered me, personally. In fact, I've really always found that the disadvantages make the race more attractive to play than the benefits (which just amuses me Vamps Icon_razz ). The only thing that really sticks in my proverbial craw is the 25% xp penalty; considering the other drawbacks, I think 10%, or even 0%, is more in order. Being stuck inside so often wouldn't be all that bad if you were actually making some headway while you're in there. That, or some distinct upgrades to the vamp's benefits, since only two or three of them seem to be at all useful past eighth level or so. Maybe even a quest (or semi-class) that would allow a PC to fully embrace their vamp-i-tude and eventually acquire all the boons and immunities that go with it?

That said, I do also like the suggestions for better vamp equipment that have been thrown out above, particularly Shadowcloaks that just go inert instead of burning up entirely.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:00 pm

Sorry for the misleading wording. I meant to say that we should increase the interval from 6 seconds to 30 seconds. Shortening it makes it sun=death faster than ever before.... it's bad enough already.

Perhaps blood should heal a % of the vampires HPs, so that blood doesn't lose it's effectiveness against sun damage (and in general)
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Post by RustyDios Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:33 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:
Perhaps blood should heal a % of the vampires HPs, so that blood doesn't lose it's effectiveness against sun damage (and in general)

This sounds like a really good idea... a random % of the vamp's total HP... maybe ALL the curing potions should be made like this, with progressive % strengths (instead of "fixed" dice).... thus keeping even the normal ones useful for everybody, as at the moment it gets to a point where everyone is carrying full heals or dragonblood (the former waaayyy easier to come by)... ..

mannyjabrielle wrote:
Shadowcloaks... my ONE issue with these isn't so much that they run out of charages, but that they completely go byebye when worn out.

Perhaps tweak them to NOT be destroyed when out of charges? For classes that can't recharge their cloaks, they're still at a disadvantage, but for those who can, they could keep just one cloak and recharge it as needed rather than having to carry around 4 or 5 "spares" that clutter the inventory.

This I also completely agree with... I've not yet played a vampire race (the drawbacks seem too much compared to the gains), but even as a fledgling shadowchild, finding and keeping a stock of these is a must and they take up sooo much space... I'd even go for changing the item altogether, a suncream bracer, or UV shield, or something that doesn't consume loads of inventory space (even a bag can only hold three - of course you can fit six pouches into the space of one cloak, each pouch holding 3 cloaks, but that's not the point) .... ....

As for vamps breathing water, sorry I'm not up for that.. vamps and water shouldn't mix ("The mere touch of water is like acid")... but it wouldn't be fun if the vamp PC's couldn't explore the underwater area's ....so perhaps maybe there should be NO sun damage in underwater area's... .. you could say that the water "filters out the sun"... you move too slowly in water to get to any underwater cave, you risk drowning AND burning, and in some places just exploring the oceans must be a pain (such as the Celestian) ... ...

I'm not sure about an ioun/passive ability to block out the sun, but how about one that "upgrades" the PC's defense to it... Vamps with this ioun "burn like shadows", and shadowchildren with it "scorch like drow".. maybe drow with it "regenerate so fast the sun has become no obstacle" ((after all ANY regen item will do the same thing for drow!)) ... ... ...
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:54 pm

The ioun idea was already nixed in another thread a while back
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Post by Skywatcher Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Not sure if it is intentional, but since she has been ascended, Lyann is no longer a vampire, not just no sun damage, but she has to eat food (ugh) to rest, and no DR, and no damage from sunlight. Not sure on vamp speed, she is wearing boots anyway, and no idea on the other boosts either. She does have her domination icon though.
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:02 pm

That sounds like an issue tied to Leto goodness - is this in any way related to this thread?
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Post by Skywatcher Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:04 am

Not related except that it occured to me that reincarnating and ascending could easily be argued as ending the vampikres stata of undeath and that it might be intentional.
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:01 pm

An intriguing idea, to be sure...
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Post by Guthbrand Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:21 am

Honestly... I can never think of them as Vampires, and others have mentioned this, no matter how you spin it, these are more like half-vampires. "Real" vampires would be way more frightening and require probably stupid amounts of coding. If they are suppose to be real vampire's the sun thing should stay. Of course it could be argued that these are all "young" vampires which would be pretty gimp like this I guess... but then you realize they can swim which only the most ancient of vampires can get away with doing.... bah...

Of course vampires aren't real... so what can you base them off of anyway? Unless you want to get close to the PnP equivalent and I'm pretty sure that would get a bit overpowered.
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Post by DMT Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:24 am

The Sun Damage should stay where it's at. Don't make it less damage to the Vampires. It harms them and it should always should be that way. Maybe have a sun-screen oil/ointment or something to help block the suns damage but not lessen it.

To me if you choose a subrace you need to deal with it's pros and cons. Not happy with it then don't just lay their like a dead log and whine about it. =)~
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:58 am

DMT wrote:The Sun Damage should stay where it's at. Don't make it less damage to the Vampires. It harms them and it should always should be that way. Maybe have a sun-screen oil/ointment or something to help block the suns damage but not lessen it.

To me if you choose a subrace you need to deal with it's pros and cons. Not happy with it then don't just lay their like a dead log and whine about it. =)~

I don't think it is fair to say that suggesting tweaks to the mechanics is "laying there like a dead log, whining about it".

I am not sure if you have played a PC with the Vampire subrace in Aenea, but if you have not.... I would recommend playing a Vampire subrace PC to at least level 10 or 12 so that you can form an opinion based on personal experience. I know my opinions and suggestions are based on exactly that.
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:12 pm

Also, just wanted to comment on this bit:


As for vamps breathing water, sorry I'm not up for that.. vamps and
water shouldn't mix ("The mere touch of water is like acid")..

The idea I put forth was not for vampire to have the ability to breathe water. I agree this would not make sense. They dont have gills, etc.

The idea was that Vampires do not need to breathe at all, air or water. They are dead enough to burn in the sun, they should be dead enough to not need air.

Also, the folklore says that only "running water" harms them (rivers and streams)... standing bodies of water pose no threat (lakes, ponds, oceans).
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Post by eeriegeek Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:44 pm

One slightly more complicated but quite doable way to tweak the sun damage for half-vampires would be to scale it a little more around noon. For example a simple lookup table for damage % by hour rather that just day/night. Damage could be minimal at dawn and dusk and peak at noon. That would expand the outdoor playable time for vamps while preserving the perfectly reasonable fear of daylight. If PCs vampires are considered full vampires however, I think they should fear even/especially the dawn. Vamps Icon_biggrin
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Post by DMT Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:12 pm

My comment was meant to be sarcastic. And no I haven't played a vampire here.
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Post by daveyeisley Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:28 pm

DMT wrote:My comment was meant to be sarcastic. And no I haven't played a vampire here.

I see. The way you worded it was confusing... seemed like the opinion was backed up by the conclusion rather than being at odds with it.

As for vamps, the sun damage is not a total deal breaker... but it is the most major drawback of any subrace in Aenea... and it comes with a damage vulnerability and XP penaly on top of it. The benefits of the subrace just dont balance that as it stands. If you do get around to playing one, I am confident you will see what I mean.
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Vamps Empty Re: Vamps

Post by evilkittenofdoom Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:15 am

Here's a suggestion - give them as a spell, twice perday, Blade of the Life Eater (with a scaling caster level) and or Vampiric Touch (with a scaling caster level).

If it's a one or the other thing, I'd suggest letting a player choose at character creation, as they ikely have a build idea in mind and will know if melee abilities or spell abilities are more beneficial to them.
evilkittenofdoom
evilkittenofdoom
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Male Number of posts : 1217
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Location : Ready to Pounce at the Least Suspected Moment...
Main Character : Aseph, the NOT old sorcerer
Other Character : Analo, professional Dracolich (and other undead) hunter
Other Character. : Sivoran, the PC Demilich
Other Character.. : Imyna, Drow Priestess of Sorgath
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Vamps Empty Re: Vamps

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