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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Shadow Evade

Post by MannyJabrielle Fri May 14, 2010 4:21 pm

And a duration suggestion for the shadow evade ability.

Could this be tweaked to 1 round per SD level rather than the flat 5 rounds? It's roughly comparable to the spell ethereal visage, but doesn't grant as much concealment, it's DR only surpasses ethereal visage after 12 SD levels (visage is 20/+3 vs the scaling evade's 10/+3 at SD 10/18/+7 at SD30), and instead of spell immunity, grants 4 AC.

It's a nice ability... but at 3 uses a day for 5 rounds.... not really useful at all.

*edit oops, 3 uses a day, not 1, confused that with shadow *daze*. BUt still, 15 rounds total per day is meh
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by evilkittenofdoom Fri May 14, 2010 4:35 pm

Very much agreed. While I'm not one for stealth-classes, 5 rounds isn't a whole lot here, especially when it takes a round to activate it.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by daveyeisley Sat May 15, 2010 5:26 am

Maybe just double it to 10 rounds per activation.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by MannyJabrielle Sat May 15, 2010 6:08 am

Why just that? There's precedent mentioned for a round/level damage reduction of comparable power.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Sat May 15, 2010 6:16 am

I must agree here. 10 rounds isn't a whole lot either. Maybe 15 or 20 rounds (Not sure if you can go epic SD here, if so, I'd say 1 round/2 levels)
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat May 15, 2010 6:19 am

You can go epic SD, up to 30. All the bioware prestige classes can go up to 30. It's only the Aenean prestige classes (and PDK) which are limited to 5 or 10 levels.
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Post by eeriegeek Sat May 15, 2010 6:59 am

I'm a big fan of constant + per level durations. I think something like 10 rnds + 1 rnd/level would be reasonable. So the end result would be 14 rnds at 4th level when it is obtained up to 40 rnds for SD 30. That should be enough to last for a typical tough combat episode. It would at least start to compete favorably with similar wizard spells. I implemented a duration like this for expeditious retreat and it actually became a useful spell at low levels.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Sat May 15, 2010 7:29 am

I did that on another server that doesn't have items like our boots of stepping. Extended Expeditious Retreat made getting things done in their custom crafting system a WHOLE lot easier.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by daveyeisley Sun May 16, 2010 12:08 pm

Well, the spell in question (ethereal visage) is a spell, whereas the shadow evade doesnt subscribe to quite the same limitations such as requiring spell slots, spell failure, concentration checks, counterspelling, or being dispelled.

I agree that 5 rounds is piddly, and 10 seems more reasonable to me. Having the SD level govern duration would result in possible 30 round durations, which is a bit long in my opinion, and too short durations when the SD is below level 10.

Eeriegeeks suggestion of doing 10 round flat + level would also make it possible to get long durations at SD20 and above.... I would suggest 10 rounds flat + 1/2 SD levels at most.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 16, 2010 1:26 pm

At low levels it'd be at mimimum 1 round shorter than currently (shadow evade's gained at level 4).

No, it's not a spell, and doesn't have the same limitations as a a spell (spell slots). It is dispellable though, at least beholder AM dispels it). And likewise, it doesn't have the versatility of a spell (It's one effect, can't swap it for another ability as you can swap spell slots).

There is numerous precedents for non-spell slot abilities having variable durations. Assassin invis/improved invisibility use assassin level for caster level duration.

Divine wrath is another non spell ability which grants scaling powers and scaling duration, and is not subject to spell failure, concentration checks, need spell slots for.

I stand by the recommendation for rounds at SD level.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by daveyeisley Sun May 16, 2010 1:42 pm

Greater Dispel and Mords wont dispel or breach it.

The versatility you mention has nothing to do with the spell, but rather with a spellcasting classes spell slots. Which is more a design limitation than a versatility.

Scaling duration of assassin invis uses the class level for duration as the ability is a spell that was implemented badly in the crossoever from PnP to NWN. Assassins are supposed to have actual caster levels. Apples to oranges there, as shadow evade is not a spell in either system.

Divine wrath doesnt use class levels for duration. It uses ability mod. It is also not a spell.

I dont think the SD level should govern the duration. Again we will agree to disagree.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 16, 2010 1:52 pm

No Dave, thank you for pointing out that it's not a spell in either system.

I stand by my suggestions that shadow evade should get a duration boost.

So, yes, let's agree to disagree. thanks.
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 16, 2010 1:54 pm

Sure, no problem Smile

What do you think about it having a doubled duration? That would be a boost, no?
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 16, 2010 2:01 pm

daveyeisley wrote:What do you think about it having a doubled duration? That would be a boost, no?

Please refer to older posts. I have no desire to repeat my self adnauseum for your benefit Smile Thanks.
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 16, 2010 2:09 pm

I saw your post asking "why just that?".

I didnt see any comment that 10 rounds wasnt a boost, so i wanted to ask for clarification. Is it a matter that you dont feel it is enough of a boost?
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 16, 2010 2:17 pm

EKOD's response right after that sums it up. Not really enough. That's like saying we'll boost it to 6 rounds a use instead of 5, it's still a boost.

Thanks!
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Post by daveyeisley Sun May 16, 2010 2:18 pm

Ok. So... do you have a boundary on what you feel would be too much?
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 16, 2010 2:26 pm

Ok, let me be bluntly honest here, I can see no purpose to that question other than "debate Manny" rather than "debate the suggestion, and I'm really not in the mood to play that kind of stupid game with you.

Let me know when you're interesting in debating the subject, not me. Thanks!
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by daveyeisley Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:50 am

Bump. Would still be nice to see this get a duration boost to 10 rounds.

Or, even better, to better satisfy both sides... have it be 1 round + 1 round per SD level up to a max of 20 rounds. So the range would be 5 rounds (because it is gained at SD level 4) to 20 rounds.
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shadow dancer - Shadow Evade Empty Re: Shadow Evade

Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:05 pm

Link to this related thread.

Recommend merging threads, as well.
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