Not Used: Acrobats

On the surface, the Acrobat Prestige Class seems darn near tailor-made to help characters qualify for the Weapon Master Prestige Class.

Because characters are limited to 3 classes maximum, there is a mechanical issue with that, however.

In order to qualify for Acrobat currently, one needs 8 Tumble ranks.

With the goal of taking the Weapon Master Prestige Class in mind, this leaves only two options:

1. At least 5 levels of a class with Tumble as a class skill.

2. At least 13 levels of a class with Tumble cross-class (and optimally, a full BAB progression).

Also, the Acrobat class does not have an Epic level progression, which means the character cannot gain more than 10 levels in the class, and therefore cannot gain Epic Bonus feats from it for feats such as Defensive Roll, Great Dexterity, Epic Skill Focus: Tumble, Blinding Speed, Improved Whirlwind, or Epic Dodge.

This latter issue is not something that will likely be fixed soon, if ever, though it would be awesome.

So, to examining the 1st issue:

Option #1 - If one goes the route of a class with Tumble as a class skill:
They will be gaining only 3/4 BAB at best. With 5 levels of such a class, that means a BAB of 3.
After taking 10 Acrobat levels to gain all the bonus feats to help qualify for Weapon Master, the character only gains another 7 BAB, for a total of 10 BAB.

At this point the character has only 5 pre-epic levels remaining, and even with Weapon Master being a full BAB class, their BAB at 20th level (when their # of attacks per round is finalized) will only be 15 at best. This means the best that such an Acrobat/Weaponmaster can manage is a mere 3 attacks per round.

Furthermore, the character will have lost 5 points of BAB for their trouble, so even with taking 25 levels of Weapon Master for the +6 AB bonus, their net benefit to AB is only +1.

For a character who intends to use the Weapon Master's class benefits to excel in melee, this is an extremely unattractive limitation that will in most cases cause the player to avoid the Acrobat class, even despite the Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion that are built in.

Option #2 - If one goes the route of a full BAB class for 13 levels:
They will have to avoid taking any of the Acrobat bonus feats with their regular feats so as to not lose the benefits of the Acrobat class (otherwise they would be able to qualify for Weapon Master by taking just 2 more levels of their starting class).

At 14th level, when the character would gain access to Acrobat, they would be looking at having to reach 23rd level to use the Acrobat's benefits to qualify for Weaponmaster at 24th level. This leaves only 17 levels remaining to invest in Weapon master.

Furthermore, at 20th level, when the # of attacks per round is finalized, the BAB would be 18, which is enough for 4 attacks, but they have still lost 2 BAB from their acrobat levels. Even with taking all Weapons Master levels after 23rd level, the AB bonus from Weapon Master will be only +3, which is effectively reduced by the 2 points lost from pre-epic Acrobat levels, so the net benefit to AB is only +1.

Observation:
If the character had simply avoided Acrobat altogether, they could have qualified for Weapon Master by 15th level (at the latest) and not lost a single point of BAB in the process. On top of this, with 25 levels available, the Weapon Master AB bonus could reach +6, which is a far preferable result (a net benefit of +5 AB and an extra attack over option #1, and a net benefit of +5 AB over option #2 , thus making it probably worth skipping Acrobat for.

Now that the issues of both options are before us, I propose a two-step fix:

Step 1.
Keep the Acrobat as 3/4 BAB, but shift the top 3 bonus feats around a bit. Grant Whirlwind Attack at level 8 (so that a character can get all the Weapon Master-related requirements that Acrobat provides sooner, so they don't lose additional BAB and can take more levels of the full BAB Weapon Master class pre-epic). Then shift Uncanny Dodge to Level 9 and Improved Evasion to Level 10 of the class (these could then be shunted into the epic levels to further reduce the BAB hit). This also really makes sense, as Uncanny Dodge and Improved evasion are the real gems of the class, so they should come later than the rest (and other classes don't grant Improved Evasion until level 10 as well, with the exception of Monk).

Step 2.
Reduce the Tumble skill requirement to 7 ranks. This will mean that classes with tumble as a class skill can gain access at 4th level, further reducing the loss of BAB (and further helping to protect the AB benefit of going Epic Weapon Master).

These minor modifications will help the Acrobat class truly shine in the way that is was obviously intended for, without making it any more powerful, or making it easier to get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion from it.

When designing the Acrobat class, I never even took Weapon Master into consideration. I took the mental image of someone extremely agile and mobile, threw in a few abilities to make them use that agility in combat, then figured out requirements (namely, focusing on all the dodging, jumping, and tumbling they would be doing as a battlefield acrobat).

Acrobat isn't anywhere near a true melee class. They get the same attack bonus and hitpoints as a rogue (3/4 BAB and d6 per level), no new weapon or armor proficiencies, and all their class features/feats up to 9th level are designed to put the acrobat anywhere but squarely face to face with an enemy (where a weapon master probably wants to be).

I do like the idea of adding an epic progression to the class for those epic Dexterity-using feats (they do seem to go along with the class theme). I'll have to look into that.

I don't plan on switching around the existing progression or requirements, as Acrobat is not meant as ladder to get to Weapon Master (I believe Fighter to be best for that...lots bonus feats, full BAB progression, Weapon Specialization, and enough skill points as long as you don't use Int as a dump stat).

Can't use Int as a dump stat for a Weapon Master build, because you need at least 13 Int for Expertise.

As for switching the Acrobat feats around.... thats a real shame. I guess I must have misread your design intent, though in my defense I do not think I am the only person who would have.

I havent seen many acrobats in game(maybe one since you added the class?), and I certainly wouldn't make one when Fighter can get me most of the benefits, and some post-epic Shadowdancer can get me the rest (with less impact on my attacks per round and AB)

It's just not attractive enough in its current form. Adding Epic progression won't fix that, but the suggested tweaks will make it more attractive.

I like the suggestion.

It doesn't really *change* the class fundamentally, they're still getting the same feats as before. The only real difference is 1 point of pre-requisite skill.

It doesn't change the flavor of the class either. They're still jumpy-dodgey fencer-types.

What the suggestion DOES accomplish though is make it a more attractive choice which would mean it's more likely to be chosen by any given player...

Which is a good thing. As a player, I would look at the mechanics and say "what do I get besides "flavor" from this for my character that I don't get from say, shadowdancer or rogue?". Flavor is good, don't get me wrong...

Just agreeing with the suggestion... it doesn't change the flavor or even really change the class itself, but makes it an attractive choice for players from a mechanics standpoint, and the game mechanics are a big part of the game.

Oddly enough, your description of the design intent, and your expression of it with the bonus feats you selected is almost identical to the Weapon Master's requirements.

Weapon Masters aren't your normal "stand in front of the bad guy and trade blows" kind of warrior. In fact, to become a Weaponmaster, characters dont even need high strength at all, but they do need to be dexterous and use agility and acrobatics to qualify.

Otherwise why would they require Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, and Whilrwind? Heck, Weapon Master's only good save category is Reflex saves.

Is it really a big deal to make some very minor tweaks to Acrobat's feat progression and entry requirements?

I guarantee they will make the class more attractive for all of our players, and won't make it any more powerful. Nor will it be changed in theme or flavor.

Edited:

Working out the math, based on feat and class requirements to get to Weapon Master, and BAB at 20th level (which determines number of attacks per round) and BAB at 25th level (going Weapon Master as soon as possible) and 40th. Using human as an example for the extra 1st level feat.

Assuming going all Weapon Master as soon as possible for maximum BAB, Acrobat to 10th to get last two class feats. Also assuming avoiding all feats that are included as Acrobat class feats.

Minimum to Qualify for Weapon Master (from cls_pres_wm.2da): Dex 13+, Int 13+, Intimidate 4+, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, BAB 5+

Progression: Fighter to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Progression: Rogue to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Progression: Fighter/Acrobat to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Progression: Rogue/Acrobat to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Progression: Fighter/Acrobat to Weapon Master
(with Acrobat changes: Tumble 7 ranks, Whirlwind Attack to 8th level, Imp. Evasion & Uncanny Dodge move up)

Spoiler:

Progression: Rogue/Acrobat to Weapon Master
(with Acrobat changes: Tumble 7 ranks, Whirlwind Attack to 8th level, Imp. Evasion & Uncanny Dodge move up)

Spoiler:

I'll be looking at this again tomorrow.

Before you edit your post, just wanted to throw this out.... with my suggestion, a "tumble class" such as rogue, monk, or bard, could get the Acrobat requirements at 4th level (skill focus tumble and 7 ranks in tumble), and start taking acrobat at level 5.

While taking the first 8 levels of acrobat (to gain Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whilrwind from Acrobat bonuses), the character could also use their normal feats to gain expertise and weapon focus (as well as the intimidate ranks). This means by level 12 ( 4 levels of tumble class, 8 levels of acrobat) they will have what is needed to start Weaponmaster at 13th level.

At this point, 12th level, they have a BAB of 9 (they lose 1 BAB on the first tumble class level, and then 1 more on the first acrobat level, and then a third on the 5th acrobat level). With Weaponmaster from 13th level to 20th level, they gain 8 more BAB putting them at 17 BAB at 20th level. That means 4 attacks

Even if they went all 10 Acrobat levels pre-epic, that means Weaponmaster can be started at 15th level. BAB at 14th level would be 10 (-1 on 1st tumble class level, -1 on 1st acrobat level, -1 on 5th acrobat level, -1 on 9th acrobat level), and with 6 levels of Weaponmaster from 15th to 20th level, they still end up with 16 BAB at level 20. 4 attacks

They could opt to take the last 2 Acrobat levels in Epic levels where they wont hurt BAB, and can still get the uncanny dodge and improved evasion benefits. And if they hold off on the last acrobat level till 37th, they can boost tumble to 40 ranks for the nice AC bonus.

The rest of the levels into Weaponmaster gives them 26 total weaponmaster levels for a +6 AB bonus from Weaponmaster, of which, they have only "lost" 3 or 4 points from pre-epic BAB. So the net AB bonus is +2 or +3, and they get their 4 attacks, tumble ranks and Uncanny Dodge/Improved evasion with a non-fighter starting class. They could even just take 25 weaponmaster, and maybe put their 40th level into Bard or Rogue to boost UMD some more.

That opens up some really exciting possibilities without changing the Acrobat class significantly. All you would really be changing is lowering the Tumble requirement by a single point. The feats are still the same feats, just the last three in a slightly different order.

Progression: Rogue to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

This one has a slight boo-boo. At 20th level, (Rogue 12, Weapon Master 8 ) the BAB would be 17.

Rogue 12 is BAB 9. A point is lost on Rogue 1, Rogue 5, and Rogue 9.

Level 25 BAB is 20. Level 40 BAB is 27.

Superior Weapon Focus with 28 Weapon Master levels grants +7 AB, so net AB bonus is +4.

This character has also spent most of their pre-epic feats just to qualify for Weapon Master, and if the level 10 Rogue bonus feat chosen is Improved Evasion, then this build will also not be able to qualify for Epic Dodge, as they need at least one more Rogue level to gain a bonus feat to buy Defensive Roll. If Defensive Roll is chosen at Rogue level 10, then the build loses Improved Evasion.

If you add a rogue level, then a Weapon master level is lost, and because 28th level of Weapon Master grants a +1 to Superior Weapon Focus (as well as a bonus feat), with 13 rogue, 27 weaponmaster the net AB bonus is +3. Then, however, this build could retain Improved Evasion and qualify for Epic Dodge if the Dexterity requirement is met.

If they were not human, they would need to wait till 16th level to start Weapon Master, and end up losing another point of BAB, reducing net bonus to only +3 and meaning the loss of all but 1 pre-epic feat. In this case, the build could retain Improved Evasion and qualify for Epic Dodge, however.

Progression: Fighter/Acrobat to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Of note here should also be that only 17 Weapon Master levels are possible, meaning the Superior Weapon focus bonus will be only +3. Net AB bonus only +1.

Progression: Rogue/Acrobat to Weapon Master

Spoiler:

Again, Superior Weapon Focus is +6, but net AB is only +1, and an attack per round is lost.

Progression: Fighter/Acrobat to Weapon Master
(with Acrobat changes: Tumble 7 ranks, Whirlwind Attack to 8th level, Imp. Evasion & Uncanny Dodge move up)

Spoiler:

Compared to the unchanged progression, 2 more Weapon master levels are possible,which is significant because 19 Weaponmaster grants another +1 to Superior Weapon Focus (and a bonus feat). This means Superior weapon focus of +4 and a net AB bonus of +2.

Progression: Rogue/Acrobat to Weapon Master
(with Acrobat changes: Tumble 7 ranks, Whirlwind Attack to 8th level, Imp. Evasion & Uncanny Dodge move up)

Spoiler:

This last one would probably be best with only 25 Weapon Master (as that is the level they get a +1 SWF and bonus feat).

Acrobat 9 and 10 could be taken ealier, on levels 23 and 24, with Defensive Roll as the level 24 feat so that the character is ready for Epic Dodge at level 27 (if they meet the dex requirement). Then level 40 can be used for Rogue to gain Tumble and UMD.

Taking the last 2 acrobat levels later is problematic because Epic Dodge requires Improved Evasion (which is gained from the 10th Acrobat level in this case). It could still be done with levels 38 and 39, however.

With 25 Weapon master levels, SWF grants +6 AB, so net AB bonus is +3. Not too shabby

For Fighters going Weapon Master, Acrobat is probably not the optimal choice, and I think that is appropriate.

Fighters do better using their own bonus feats to qualify, rather than giving up BAB pre-epic for Acrobat bonus feats.

Fighters do best with 10 levels of a class like Rogue or Shadowdancer in Epic levels (Acrobat would be viable in Epic levels as well, but most of the feats gained would be redundant at that point, but for flavor it would be sweet instead of having to take a "Stealthy" class.)

Best Fighter/Weapon Master progression probably goes like this:

1-10 Fighter (Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec)
11-20 Weapon Master
21-29 Shadowdancer/Rogue/Acrobat (Epic Weapon Focus)
30 Fighter (Epic Weapon Spec)
31-38 Weapon Master
39 Shadowdancer/Rogue/Acrobat
40 Weapon Master

BAB at level 20 is 20.

BAB at level 40 is 30.

With 19 levels of Weapon Master, Superior Weapon Focus is +4. Net AB gain is +4 as well.

The build still has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion, and Shadowdancer would also come with the built in Defensive roll which makes the character eligible for Epic Dodge (with the feat at level 39) as well.

Fighters who want Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion still end up having to pay for it, by giving up 9 or 10 levels of Weapon Master and the Superior Weapon Focuses that come along with it.