Mayhem in Macedone ...

by **Eric of Atrophy** Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:09 am

Hiya, all!

It's not as exciting as it sounds ... I was in Macedone last night with my Grim Harvestress, and she was carrying her sword, as she usually does. A guard ran up to her and did the whole put yer weapon away thing, to which she replied no - Na-guillies sheathes her blade for no mortal authority - so she was given the 2 point swing to evil.

Now, I was thinking, yes I can understand why the pc takes an alignment hit when directly defying an agent of the law, but wouldn't that be more in line with a shift to chaotic? Na-guillies meant no evil by not putting her weapon away, she just doesn't obey many human laws, especially when it comes to laws that try to regulate use of her weapons.

What say y'all?

*PS: It's wonderful to be back!

by **Elhanan** Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:51 am

Welcome back again! And agreed; hitting the guard would be Evil....

(and I never knew that this; have always complied)

by **MannyJabrielle** Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:42 am

I agree!

by **daveyeisley** Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:51 am

I still want to be able to buy a permanent permit for keeping my weapons equipped.

by **Elhanan** Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:41 pm

daveyeisley wrote:I still want to be able to buy a permanent permit for keeping my weapons equipped.

Much like a Monk, an Ascended mage (ie; Sorcerer, Wizard) is never unarmed; the staves are simply for support.... Wink

by **Eric of Atrophy** Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:20 pm

daveyeisley wrote:I still want to be able to buy a permanent permit for keeping my weapons equipped.

Would be phenomenal!

And I know that this is not really up high on the list of suggestion concerns, but I just thought of if and didn't want to lose the thought ...

by **Drgnwlkr** Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:27 pm

It's good to see you back =) I agree that it would be more chaotic than evil, hehe

by **Angel of Death** Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:15 pm

I agree too. Unless you actively slay/wound the guard it's an chaotic action. Smile

I do know of another similar case--the sarcophagus which is located in the kobold den near Granda village; when you open it and if you take the armor within, it gives you evil points for robbing a sanctified grave. I really do think that should be chaotic points given, not evil...

Just my opinion. Smile

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:29 pm

I'm completely rewriting the guards' conversation and scripting. They currently use a set of scripts and a conversation that I downloaded from the Vault years ago (before I knew how to script). Looking at it now, it looks like a rather convoluted mess. Rolling Eyes

The new conversation should have the guards give you a warning, then a fine, then the possibility of jail if the same guard has to warn you repeatedly. Wink

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:06 pm

Umm... that doesnt sound like its going to make the game more fun, The Amethyst Dragon

.... as one of the several people who have always found those guards to be a fun-sucking annoyance, I must say that it sounds like this will simply increase the anooyingness of the guards.... not a good thing.

by **Eric of Atrophy** Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:43 pm

What if a weapons permit were implemented, as per dave's suggestions? would this balance that out? also, will the point penalty stay at evil, or will it be changed to chaotic?

And I'll tell ya, I hope I'm in the general area when a guard decides that he's stupid enough to try and arrest Sir Bane ... fireworks, indeed!

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:46 pm

Crideas wouldn't kill the guard for doing his job.... he would probably just go Ethereal or teleport away.... but Crideas *would* seek out the body of lawmakers who made the law, and express his displeasure, and offer various solutions to the problem.

And if they refused to listen to reason, then he might seek other means to motivate them.... maybe a few days as a statue for the rudest of the bunch.

by **Elhanan** Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:28 pm

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:I'm completely rewriting the guards' conversation and scripting. They currently use a set of scripts and a conversation that I downloaded from the Vault years ago (before I knew how to script). Looking at it now, it looks like a rather convoluted mess.

The new conversation should have the guards give you a warning, then a fine, then the possibility of jail if the same guard has to warn you repeatedly.

Pls do not forget about those having brain freezes, and simply cannot remember. My suggestion is to save the fines and jail for any that do not comply, and/or caught in the city actively involved with combat.

by **Angel of Death** Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:57 pm

I don't think that idea is all bad...maybe if it's coupled with one or all of these...

The ability to pay for a special permit which allows one to carry weapons.
Able to bluff/persuade your way out of it if you got a high enough score in the relevant skills. (Like say, bribing the guard to look the other way--this of course would offer a minor chaotic shift)
Or able to Intimidate the guard to back off.
If you ends up in jail, allow for a prison break maybe? (Like say, using skills such as: Pick pocket to steal keys and/or Pick Lock to get out/Invis or Stealth to get by guards once out of the cell...even brute force to break the cell door open (for those 25+ STR chars)

Just a few thoughts of mine. Smile

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:18 pm

Angel of Death wrote:I don't think that idea is all bad...maybe if it's coupled with one or all of these...

The ability to pay for a special permit which allows one to carry weapons.
Able to bluff/persuade your way out of it if you got a high enough score in the relevant skills. (Like say, bribing the guard to look the other way--this of course would offer a minor chaotic shift)
Or able to Intimidate the guard to back off.
If you ends up in jail, allow for a prison break maybe? (Like say, using skills such as: Pick pocket to steal keys and/or Pick Lock to get out/Invis or Stealth to get by guards once out of the cell...even brute force to break the cell door open (for those 25+ STR chars)

Just a few thoughts of mine.

These ideas all have good potential. They would just need to be implemented well to make it work.

My favorite is the permit idea. I have no issue with there being a quest, or a test of some sort in addition to the fee. Perhaps one must prove their loyalty to the city, or show that they are trustworthy and can restrain themselves.

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:11 pm

I had coded lots of this in already. Bribery, flirtation (both using Persuade skill checks), a special item (there's a ring, an amulet, and a cloak) you can wear that acts as a permit (if they can see it, they won't bother you, they just don't have a "detect permit buried in bag of holding" spell).

Jail won't be a huge hassle. If you go, you just end up in a small area where they make you pay bail (100 gp), and you're released to go on your way.

The first warning (from each guard) is free of charge (unless you're rude, then it's a 1 gp fine). The second warning (from the same guard) comes with a 5 gp fine. The 3rd warning (from the same guard) comes with a 20 gp fine. After the 3rd warning (from the same guard) , that's when the possibility of jail comes up.

A guard you've succeeded in bribing will be slightly easier to bribe in the future.

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:15 pm

Also:

Magic staves won't be considered weapons to the guard patrols, and they won't run up to you if you are in a conversation already or in combat.

by **Elhanan** Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:39 pm

heh! And to think all this stemmed from something I knew nothing avout these past few years. Sounds good to me!

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:03 pm

Aww cmon.... cant the "permit" just be something in inventory.... why should PCs have to gear swap? that defeates the purpose of not wanting to unequip a weapon....

Please The Amethyst Dragon

, unless you have some extremely good reason for requiring the permit to be worn, it just sucks to have it that way.

they dont need a "detect permit" spell... it can be assumed that the PC has drawn out the "permit" for the guard, and shown it to them.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:11 pm

Actually, better than having an item.... just have a spellcaster that works for the city cast a permanent magical marking spell, like an "arcane mark" that acts as a permit.... and the guards can be assumed to have a way of seeing the mark.

Mechanically it would just set a variable on the PC, and the checking script would be able to look for that variables value/presence specifically rather than checking a gear slot or inventory.

by **RustyDios** Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:39 pm

I like the "arcane/divine mark" idea.. esp considering the city holds one of the largest collections of temples (ie quest givers, to say your loyal and accountable to the church of xxxx in macedone) and not to mention the BIGGEST arcane wizard guilds ( more quest givers, able to upkeep the citywide arcane search thingi .... .... barring Alatha / Crideas' Sanctum Smile

)

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:00 pm

yeah and the arcane mark wouldnt use up 3 module resources either. Everybody wins.

by **MannyJabrielle** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:12 pm

With the jail thing, please don't make it a situation of you automatically go to jail when they want to throw you in. For low level PCs, yeah, I could see a bunch of the macedone goon squad carting the offenders off to jail, but it would be entirely ridiculous for them to just be able to cart off any epic level, demonslaying, orc army destroying PC.

I'm still undecided if the "realism" aspect of this outweighs the fun aspect myself. I'm actually leaning towards it being a fun-drainage. There's possibility for the PC to be punished, yet absolutely no reward gameplay wise for the system either.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:21 pm

I dont mind having the system there as a way to hassle PCs.... as long as there is a way to conveniently avoid the hassle if you dont want to deal with it. For this, a purchaseable/questable arcane mark variable fits the bill.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:23 pm

I am totally not cool with having such an unwanted hassle forced down my throat.

by **Elhanan** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:25 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:With the jail thing, please don't make it a situation of you automatically go to jail when they want to throw you in. For low level PCs, yeah, I could see a bunch of the macedone goon squad carting the offenders off to jail, but it would be entirely ridiculous for them to just be able to cart off any epic level, demonslaying, orc army destroying PC.

I'm still undecided if the "realism" aspect of this outweighs the fun aspect myself. I'm actually leaning towards it being a fun-drainage. There's possibility for the PC to be punished, yet absolutely no reward gameplay wise for the system either.

A jail break could lead to XP from picking locks, disarming traps, and even escape. And maybe this is additional source of food for the Maker! pale

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:27 pm

Arcane marking rather than a visible item: I like.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:28 pm

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Arcane marking rather than a visible item: I like.

hallelujah!

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:37 pm

MannyJabrielle wrote:With the jail thing, please don't make it a situation of you automatically go to jail when they want to throw you in. For low level PCs, yeah, I could see a bunch of the macedone goon squad carting the offenders off to jail, but it would be entirely ridiculous for them to just be able to cart off any epic level, demonslaying, orc army destroying PC.

I'm still undecided if the "realism" aspect of this outweighs the fun aspect myself. I'm actually leaning towards it being a fun-drainage. There's possibility for the PC to be punished, yet absolutely no reward gameplay wise for the system either.

The going to jail isn't automatic. The PC has to agree to go along peacefully...otherwise that's when there's hostilities.

And I've already written in small amounts of XP for "playing along" (stowing weapons when asked) and for successfully using Persuade skills to avoid jail (bribery or flirtation) if you've racked up 3 warnings already from the same guard since the last reset (the status is not stored persistently).

The patrols will only enforce this in the exterior areas within the city walls (docks district, high district, home district, and trade district), but not within buildings within those areas.

With bribing, just try to do it out of earshot of other guards (far enough away or around a corner works). They won't take a bribe when they know other guard members will take note.

And eventually for something to do for those that want it, I can add a voluntary option for if/when they get jailed, they actually get thrown in a dungeon and locked up (and have to escape). Maybe an ;;option lockmeup . Razz

by **RustyDios** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:40 pm

I don't want to add further headache .... but .... why is this only in Macedone ?.. Why are there not guards in say Mountainholme CASTLE ?... or Calithia, or why do none of the Shieldlands Azure Order bother you ?.. or any guards in Tradeholme ?... or anywhere else for that matter ?.... ....

I mean you'd think Macedone of all places would be a little understanding of the adventuring populace, after all it WAS Macedone that one of the most feared, deadly and dangerous Red Dragons of Aenea (Talon) raised up and started to create a path of destruction across the lands, only to be bested by the very same adventurers that had to sheath and stow their weapons moments earlier... ..
... Maybe people with the "Protector of Nektaria" or "Talon's Eternal Foe" titles could be considered trustworthy without needing any extra stuff ...

And how about the PC's that LIVE in Macedone, surely they wouldn't want to destroy their own city ?!? ((Yes I'm speaking of Grace, but I know at least one other PC house is located in Macedone)) ?

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:56 pm

There are guards in Mountainholm. Macedone is the only place that passed a stupid law against having weapons out in public.

Its a stupid law because many folks are "armed" even if they arent openly displaying their method of attack.. and the folks who have a weapon "stowed" can still pull it out can make violence if they want to. The law is just stupid.... completely useless. Having a weapon or weapons on you is allowed... its just the carrying it unconcealed that is unlawful.... rubbish. All it does is hassle law abiding travellers, it doesnt actually filter out people who would break the law..... if anything it gives incentive to attack the guards.

Worst case, the law abiding folks who carry weapons for self0-defense may actually avoid the city alltogether, or stop carrying their weapon to avoid the hassle... and that does one of two things: hurts commerce, or gives and advantage to lawbreakers.

by **Drgnwlkr** Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:58 pm

Wow, I take it you really don't like the law. Since Macedone seems more 'organized and civilized' than most the other towns, I can see why the lawmakers would pass such a decree. I am not familiar with the Talon storyline but if it is so that the dragon wreaked havoc from Macedone then wouldn't the ruling factions wish to force everyone to keep their weapons sheathed? Sure, a villian could unsheath his or her weapon and kill say a merchant but at least it would take time and the guards would have a chance of noticing. Not to sound bad about anything, I find being harassed about my drawn sword less aggitating than trying to get through town with a hundred rats running about, hehe.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:10 pm

"At least it would take time and the guards would notice"?

If this is the whole purpose of the law that forces travellers to conceal their weapons, then my point has been proven for me.

Drawing a weapon is a move action, so the only thing the law does is prevent a full attack action on the round the weapon is first drawn? Again, as I said, stupid, useless rubbish.

Either dont allow any weapons at all (unrealistic, unfeasible, unreasonable), or let people carry them openly.

by **Drgnwlkr** Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:20 pm

I didn't say the lawmakers were thinking straight, they are just trying to keep their citizens safe. Make life less threatening, hehe. RPwise, I can see why the law is there and I don't mind it. I don't know if there is a RP reason behind the law or why the Amethyst Dragon set it in place. I am sure there's something more to it than for it to be a gaming hindrance. One of the awesome aspects of Aenea, imo, is how structured for the player it is. I just don't see it as such an inconvenience but then again Elladyr or most other PCs of mine don't always run about the land with their weapons drawn. They like to make it a surprise to those who may wish to engage them in battle.

by **daveyeisley** Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm

And all of this does nothing to cover the folks who dont need a weapon in order to kill.

Will monks have to wear shackles within city limits? Will Wizards need to relinquish their spellbooks and submit to an antimagic field? Clerics and sorcerors too? Druids will be forbidden to shapeshift somehow?

There is no functional way to fairly prevent people from having easy access to lethal force. Its not realistic or even reasonably enforceable. Purely discriminatory against weapon-wielders, and totally ineffective as a safety measure.

by **Drgnwlkr** Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:26 pm

I am so glad I'm not the Amethyst Dragon, hehe. You have made great points that I would take much advantage of Twisted Evil

What if there could be a magi posted just outside of the gates selling that arcane mark? But then are we not encouraging segregation of the populace if someone has not the gold or is not willing to take the mark? There are so many ways to spin all of this, hehe.

by **Christopher Robin R2** Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:46 pm

All I can say is I find people who walk around with an unsheathed sword in hand really REALLY weird. I'd cross the street to avoid someone like that.

by **Angel of Death** Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:45 am

Christopher Robin R2 wrote:All I can say is I find people who walk around with an unsheathed sword in hand really REALLY weird. I'd cross the street to avoid someone like that.

^ Ditto...I would give the person a look like they where crazy.. Razz

In game terms, it would (at the very least) make my PCs lift an eyebrow if they saw someone wielding a weapon 24/7.

by **Elhanan** Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:07 am

The only occasion when it is a bother for me is when I have just escaped being attacked in one part of the city or Burial Isle, and the guards are unaware that I have been assisting them. Still, I have always complied, and the weapon is auto-sheathed at that point.

by **daveyeisley** Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:00 am

Angel of Death wrote:
Christopher Robin R2 wrote:All I can say is I find people who walk around with an unsheathed sword in hand really REALLY weird. I'd cross the street to avoid someone like that.
^ Ditto...I would give the person a look like they where crazy..

Sure, as a modern American, I would too, because I don't have a weapon, nor do I walk around with one.

.... but my PCs arent modern Americans. They are adventurers, and they have their own weapons and they walk around with them, often in hand. My PCs kill things and fight regularly.... I don't. Commoners in big cities are used to guards and adventurers walking around with big glowing swords and scythes. They know it doesnt make a difference if the weapon is sheathed or in hand.... it can be used to kill them in one stroke in a matter of 2 seconds either way.

And lets not forget that the PC walking around with the weapon unsheathed is simply an abstraction because the engine doesnt automate drawing and unsheathing in conjunction with combat state. A sheathed weapon is still considered "equipped" in PnP, but NWN's engine has the limitation that doesn't allow for that distinction.

In game, it doesn't make any sense for there to be laws against unsheathed weapons when there are people who can kill easily without them. All that does is give the bad guys an edge.

by **daveyeisley** Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:41 am

Also, from a psychological point of view.... laws that mandate weapons to be concealed are counterproductive in fighting crime. All they are is a placebo to make people feel comfortable... its not that the weapon isnt there, its just that you cant *see* it.

Places that permit weapons to be carried openly have lower crime rates. Why? Because criminals want easy targets. If everyone is carrying a weapon, they are capable of defending themselves and are hence not worth the risk. If the weapons were concealed, they are no longer an effective deterrent.

Although, even in D&D, sheathed weapons are still visible. So there is no placebo. Commoners and normal folk can see the violent implement. Its threat is present whether drawn or sheathed. Whats more important is the demeanor and body language of its bearer. Is the weapon carrier distraight, or angry? Are they stalking down the street threateningly after someone? Are they sneaking up behind someone? Or, are they just standing next to the fruit stand, talking to Glen about current events with their sword drawn, but casually pointed downwards?

In the wild west, most men had guns... and carried them around openly. What was more important to the Sheriff than whether the gun was holstered or not, was what the man was doing at the time. Was he polishing and maintaining his gun? Was he showing its craftsmanship off to someone? Was he walking around calmly and casually with the gun in hand? Was his finger on the trigger? Was he brandishing it, or pointing at bystanders angrily?

When weapons are present, it is emotional state and demeanor that imply threat more than the weapon itself. Those are the things that effective authority figures look for.

As an aside, the NWN engine not being able to differentiate between an equipped, but sheathed, weapon and an unsheathed weapon brings up the problem of automatic attacks. My fighter PC might not really walk around with his weapon drawn at all times... but it is "equipped" at all times. When a hostile gets close and provokes an attack of opportunity, my PC should always attack with his weapon.... however, in NWN, due to the engine limitation... if I have "sheathed" my weapon, it is considered unequipped, and my PC will try to punch the damn enemy instead. Depending on the situation, that could get my PC killed.

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:50 pm

Just finished dumping the "permit items" and coding in an "arcane mark" that shows when within the walls of Macedone. You can purchase the mark by talking to someone in the city that might know something about detection magic. Hint: he's in the wizard's guild building in a room that will be newly open with the next module update.

by **Drgnwlkr** Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:56 pm

There is a difference between 'equipped' and 'wielded'. Equipment is equipped thus even a bedroll is such. In my limited PnP play, we have had to distinguish between whether our weapons were merely 'equipped' or if we actually were wielding them.

Dave, you make the distinction between the real world and the game of NWN yet go back to using the real world as foundation of your argument... the psychological point of view. It is a game and I kind of doubt that the commoners and normal folk can actually see anything unless possessed by a DM. Of all the things I've experienced on Aenea, being asked to put away my weapon has been the least shocking, appalling or intrusive. If we get rid of 1 thing that is seen by a few as a hindrance, do we start removing other things as well? I surely hope we don't and that, since Amethyst Dragon is implementing the arcane mark, not much at all changes on the server aside from nice creations by Amethyst Dragon and bug fixes. Yep...even as much as I loathe disintegration, I hope it stays the same =)

by **daveyeisley** Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:23 pm

The psychological example was simply logic that would apply equally both in game and in the real world. In this context, the distinction you make loses any meaning.

When we talk mechanics, such as the difference between sheathed, equipped, and wielded, thats when the game/real-world distinction is meaningful. We obviously have different definitions of those terms, and for this discussion, my statements have made no disctinction between "sheathed" and "equipped"... but "wielded" would seem to equate to "readied" in mechanicals terms, which more or less is the same as being "drawn". Mind the fact that I never used the word wielded, but did state that drawing the weapon is a move action.

Now, all hair spitting aside. I think I have made it very clear why the law doesnt make any sense and is not effective or useful in protecing anyone. If I have not done so, then we simply must agree that we do not agree, sadly.

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:36 pm

In the real world, as in Macedone, certain laws are passed to make the citizens feel better...whether or not they are particularly effective (or even counter-productive). Politics aren't always completely logical. Smile

And if you want to get into "equipped" vs. "readied" vs. "wielded" vs. "carried", vs. "etc." .... here's my take on it, and just for NWN (not for the real world or even for a PnP D&D game):

equipped = carried openly = drawn = wielded...if it's in an equipment slot, you're actively wearing/wielding that item. If it's a weapon, it means you're holding it out or swinging it around, ready to smack something with it right away. If it's a shield, you've got it strapped to your forearm, ready to hold up as quickly as you can move that arm. If it's a helmet, it's on your head, likely covering your face.

stowed = ready to use = carried concealed = easy access...if it's in your inventory, it's very easy and quick to start using it at any time (except armor when in combat). In NWN we don't deal with "digging in one's pack" to find something, and we don't even bother with "how do you fit an entire armory in one little backpack?". The "inventory" is even more abstract than hit points...it's kind of like you've got an extra-dimensional hole in your body that you can pull anything from instantly to use. It is after all, a computer game...the only item use limitations are attacks of opportunity for drinking a potion and being unable to equip armor while in combat.

by **daveyeisley** Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:38 pm

Well, I see that nobody is trying to argue that the law makes sense, so I take that as a victory.

I also am happy that if our PCs are to be refused any ability to make a stupid law go away, then at least we can make the law not apply to us.

As for the sheathed, equipped, unsheathed, readied, wielded, real life vs. PnP vs. NWN shenanigans... I think we will just have to agree to disagree because its not worth the time to try and nail it all down just to be told the law cant be or itsnt going to be changed.

by **Drgnwlkr** Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:38 pm

I will have to say this...when I don't have a weapon in hand and a guardswoman badgers me to put my weapon away, then I'm kinda thinking...which weapon?

by **Elhanan** Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:25 pm

Drgnwlkr wrote:I will have to say this...when I don't have a weapon in hand and a guardswoman badgers me to put my weapon away, then I'm kinda thinking...which weapon?

That would be your headband, I believe; perhaps a Holy Symbol, as the game sees them as clubs?

by **Drgnwlkr** Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:30 pm

I will have to check but I do not believe Qarin is wearing one.

by **Skywatcher** Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:23 pm

, not to pile on, but.......when you have a game mechanic which was a source of frustration for some players (and I confess to being one of them), I can understand if you decide not to change it. But why in the world did you make it more intrusive, and more of a pain? The guards used to at least have to catch you, and if you were careful you could avoid them until you were close to a zone and evade them even if they did accost you. Now, when you walk into the zone, you get accosted, even if there is no guard in sight. And the dialog box is persistent through zones, meaning you can no longer evade them. It went from being a minor annoyance to a major pain, to the point I avoid Macedone as much as possible, and it appears you have added Mountainhome as well.

At this point, if Valeron attacks Macedone, he can have the place.

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