Scripted subclasses

Comparing to warhulk, other subclasses seem weaker to me.
I suggest to add main stat boosts to other classes as well, CHA to Dead stalker, WIT to Master of Menagerie etc., same quantity (4 in total), at the same levels.

I agree there seems to be almost no point, from power perspective, to take anything other than Warhulk and maybe MotM. Werewolf is actually a huge nerf for most higher level characters, and Dead Stalker, while cool, isn't of much use at end-game, particularly for classes most suited for it(except for Dead Reaver, which is nice, but nothing amazing). Warhulk, though, retains its' extreme usefulness for any character that goes meatshield sometimes, regardless of their gear, build or character level - the only thing necessary is a semi-decent strength, which can easily be achieved just by enchanting(up to +17 STR), for a total of 34 uses(with perma-bonus) of a huge, non-situational boost per rest for a character with 10 base STR ranks.

Some balancing would be very nice, particularly for werewolf.

I disagree, in part with Dead Stalker not being useful. I find Disruption Wave really useful to get rid of hordes of undeads quickly without having to stop up and smack them all to death.

It's better than Turn Undead since the way it's scripted, you don't have to stop up and do an animation. Just click the quickslot button while running past a large horde of undead and *pow*. Dust all around you!

(Not that I'd say no to a charisma boost if where to add it - the more charisma, the better for Celetin, the most handsome Knight Champion of Dalix in Aenea. )

It can reduce the tedium, but you don't really need to kill those skeletons at L40, anyway. And come on, those 2 seconds saved on casting every once in a blue moon won't be a reason enough to take this semi-class for most people. It may be somewhat useful to some bards, but the rest of high-cha classes have their means to dispatch masses of undead already. And due to the cost, it's not nearly as viable as warhulk with a low stat.

My point is that most builds, even uninvested in STR, will benefit from warhulk immensely, whether in Icereach or the Dark Realm, whereas you won't get that much average use out of Dead Stalker abilities, and they won't help you in epic level places - save for that 2d6 damage, which isn't all that impressive at that point(to me). It's a convenient semi-class, but doesn't make much difference power-wise in the long run.

Disruption wave can zap dracolich's pretty well.  I don't use the reaver ability much but I do use the disruption wave.  It's also good for taking out the suicide bomber zombies before they can blow themselves up.

Don't forget either that the tun undead function.  It gives non-clerics/paladins turning ability, and stacks with the cleric/paladin turning ability.

As Manny already said, you can use the Disruption Wave for more than just low level undeads. It's a pretty useful ability for professional undead hunters.

Angel of Death wrote:
(Not that I'd say no to a charisma boost if where to add it - the more charisma, the better for Celetin, the most handsome Knight Champion of Dalix in Aenea.  )

Is he the one with the really polished shield, front AND back.. that big mirror his vanity keeps carrying in front of him at all times ???

I'd say there is a point here though, the other semi-classes do all seem weak when compared to the permanent STR bonus offered by War-Hulk... however I also see the sub-classes as more RP orientated than power-build.... and in truth I've never picked a DS, MotM or WW so I really can't say how good/bad they actually are.... ...

Haha, Rusty
...maybe >.>


Anyway, On topic: I haven't tried the Werewolf semi-class yet as I have had no character with a reasonable RP reason to take it (maybe when I make a druid, perhaps? ;x). But if the semi-class are in need of a boost, maybe a permanent CON boost ala War Hulk? Wolves has a great stamina and can endure much.

@Manny: There's not that many of them, though, so unless you're farming them(which is easy for... I guess only two of them?), I see this as a nice bonus, but not something worth that +10 AB and +4 perma-strength in all situations. I've only played one pure meleer, so I may be biased here, but my monk with a custom weapon didn't have much trouble with them anyway - and warhulk still helped a lot.

I figure 5 levels more of turning aren't doing that much for a dedicated clr/pal, considering the relatively low level of most undeads, and non-dedicated can have an even lower level than they would of they didn't take those classes at all - if I understand this correctly. It may be useful for other meleers, but I don't think it's a good semi-class without somewhat decent CHA, so that leaves mostly bards.

7 Dracolichs through the game as regular spawns.  One of which has a pretty rapid respawn rate, 4 of them I'm not sure if they respawn at all or not, and the rest have a moderate respawn rate.

Suicide zombies have the same respawn rate as the rest of the baddies in their area.

Vampire shadowslayers are a special case, but you can run into a TON of them and in a situation where a spawn of 1 to 6 of them will pop out right on top of you, often boxing you in.

Even a dedicated zolaras cleric with a greater turning amulet benefits from the stalker turning boost.

Try to remember that not everyone starts out with a high end ascended character with all the bonuses and a powerful meleeing build.  Yes, 95% of the baddies in Aenea tend to be little more than cannon-fodder for the horde of 40th ascended epics, but for low-mid level characters, even 40th non-ascended who aren't toting pal1/sorc39 or monk/shifter, or whatever other powerbuild.... those low level dracoliches and shadowslayers and so forth are a challenge

Why are you keep saying about RP, balancing is not for powerbuilding and there is no way it can spoil your roleplay.
The point is not that all subclasses except WH are useless (even WW can be used by casters to deal with high sr enemies), they are just no match for WH.

Two of my characters are such unoptimized, relatively poorly geared, non-ascended mid-levels. It does take more skill, but they don't get KO'd by undeads(usually ). It would be nice to take DS with one of them now, if not for her abysmal CHA, but at higher levels shadowslayers and liches don't give good XP, which leaves the drakes to worry about(not sure what you mean by suicide zombies - mad alchemist's?). It may be worthwhile for someone who has real trouble with them and would like to kill them regularly anyway, but I think it's a somewhat limited amount of builds, and certainly ones that end at a certain point in progression(be it level, gear or otherwise). For a player who'd like to dedicate a lot of time to his PC and include this semi-class for flavor, it won't add nearly as much as warhulk, which remains effective no matter what.

About immunities - it was far more tempting back when DM upgrades were the only way you could get them on gear, but since most non-CHA-heavy builds sort of need to have access to enchantment for some stat-boosting items to be an effective Dead Stalker anyway, it makes it sort of moot.

It would all be an entirely diffrent story if we could relevel semi-classes. Which would rock, by the way.

______
But like I said, I've made just one pure meleer. And from my perspective, the biggest appeal of Dead Stalkers are RP/coolness/convenience reasons. Otherwise, Warhulk is quite a bit superior, if very boring.

Warhulk is the best mechanically for builds that benefit from what it offers... but for example, Crideas would not benefit much at all.

PCs whose Modus Operandi is to avoid melee wouldnt get anything from it.

I get that Master of the Menagerie and Dead Stalker run pretty close in utility for such builds, but dont really make a player go "Wow. Awesome." That said, I've had some really great fun with MotM.

To tie into Skywatchers somewhat misplaced feedback in the Epic Magic thread, Meleers need the extra oomph  more than other builds. They need to be able to hit to inflict damage, Warhulk helps answer that need.

I agree the mechanics of other semiclasses could be much more compelling, particularly werewolf.

MotM is actually pretty solid, in my opinion. Dead Stalker would definitely benefit from some love, but werewolf needs even more.

ColdWind wrote:Why are you keep saying about RP, balancing is not for powerbuilding and there is no way it can spoil your roleplay.

But it can ruin gameplay for those who wish to advance past level 3 without having to powerbuild and skirt exploit territory with grinding liches for hours on end and depositing their XP at arkons so one day they can suddenly go from level 21 to 40th.

As it has been said before, if you want to play that way, fine, you're not bothering anybody with that, but do not expect everybody else to have to adopt that playstyle or that they shoudl exploit arkons XP banking to bypass actual gameplay.

Coldwind wrote:
The point is not that all subclasses except WH are useless (even WW can be used by casters to deal with high sr enemies), they are just no match for WH.

The uses for the other semiclasses has been pointed out, I a really in no mood to repeat them.  Yes they could probably use some tweaking, but saying they are useless is frankly way off mark.

daveyeisley wrote:Warhulk is the best mechanically for builds that benefit from what it offers... but for example, Crideas would not benefit much at all.

I agree with that assessment.  My drow sorceress does not benefit from it either.  The +2 AB from the str boost is a very small boost, and the channel boost simply doesn't stack with her spell selection.

MotM works very well for her on the other hand.  A summoned dracolich makes a pretty good meatshield, beholder elders are great, and are FAR more useful against casters.  Meleer with WH vs caster with MotM, the caster who tosses out a elder beholder is going to nuke the elder brain, while the meleer is only increasing how fast they nuke themselves on the brain's damage shields.

It's how they're played.  If you're just point-click meleeing, yes, WH is the best.  MotM offers tactical advantages for non meleers.  Deadstalker likewise offers tacitcal advantages for those who hunt undead regularly, adding both more damage to weapon damage, and a pretty sizable AoE that can wipe a mob out or severely weaken a higher powered mob or single enemy like dracolich.

Werewolf is the one most hurting for something because it just doesn't really offer anything of substance.  The transofrmation sacrifices spellcasting ability for meleeing boosts, but the meleeing boosts are lacking, especially compared to WH where you get a greater combat boost which does not exclude spellcasting.

MannyJabrielle wrote:[...]the channel boost simply doesn't stack with her spell selection.

WH is still very good for hybrid builds that want to enjoy having decent melee and spellcasting freedom at the same time. If anything, I'd say they benefit from it more than any other.

I agree there needs to be something for meleers, but I wish it didn't come at a cost of imbalancing the semi-classes, particularly since Dead Stalker doesn't contribute all that much to epic casters.

Assuming end-game (L30-40), it seems to me that:
-Warhulk is for close to anyone who uses weapons
-Stalker is for warriors who have trouble with dracoliches(of which there are 7 and only 3 respawning in reasonable amount of time - source: Manny)
-MotM is for pure casters
-Werewolf is for roleplayers

Dead Stalker is the most useful to warriors with already decent AB but not much spellcasting ability, and still only in very particular circumstances, for not that many(and mostly totally optional) tough encounters during regular gameplay. It's just not that impressive compared to +10-12 AB in all circumstances instead of 3 bosses you probably won't farm day and night. It seems like a very limiting choice that won't pay off if you decide to go to the truly epic areas - unlike MotM and WH.

If we had a fair bit more epic undeads, I would change my opinion, but having had no real trouble with dracoliches even as lvl ~17 monk... I wouldn't think about trading warhulk for it. If anything, it's more fun when I need to consider strategy against one tough boss, possibly even make a shopping trip to prepare.