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Post by daveyeisley Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:20 pm

I have seen over the path 12 months or so, the gradual but steady reduction of loot availability from both shops and drops.

While this saddens me in a general sense, I can see that in some cases it was warranted (the old loot from bandit mages comes to mind). However...

Aside from the general hassle of now being forced to farm in order to acquire items that one desires (which I believe was something The Amethyst Dragon did not wish to encourage, and something that I believe ruins the fun of the game... if I wanted to farm for days on end to get stuff, I could just go play WoW) there is the added annoyance that many area bosses more often than not drop worse loot then the ruck and run enemies that guard said boss.

Yes, I am well aware that the bosses have a *chance* to drop much better loot. The problem I see is that they do so on such a rare basis that it throws the balance of threat vs. reward out of whack. Killing weenies en masse is less dangerous and often more profitable overall than taking on the big baddies.

Dracoliches, Elder beholders, and Ancient Wyrm Dragons all come readily to mind.

What I would like to see is a significant and *guaranteed* improvement in the loot that area bosses drop. Not a chance, because that often results in poop for ones efforts and time in getting to them and defeating them.
Bosses should *always* have significantly, if not extremely, better loot than the general populace of enemies.

Farming is tedious, and unless I commit to a situation where I know it will be necessary (like a dwarf/maker upgrade quest) I dont want it to be a necessary part of my play experience in order to equip my characters with exceptional quality gear.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:21 pm

Definitely something to be addressed. Smile

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Post by Eric of Atrophy Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:27 pm

Yup, yup ... I second what daveyeisley said...

Also, he talks about the bosses ... it's stinky when some are set to be once per server reset, because it then becomes a race to get to the good boss first... I understand the idea behind it, to cut down farming, but it's pretty stinky when a PC heads to an area for the first time, risking literally life and limb, hacks her way to the boss, and it has already been killed for this reset. Kinda anticlimactic, don'tcha think? Crying or Very sad
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:25 pm

Eric of Atrophy wrote:Yup, yup ... I second what daveyeisley said...

Also, he talks about the bosses ... it's stinky when some are set to be once per server reset, because it then becomes a race to get to the good boss first... I understand the idea behind it, to cut down farming, but it's pretty stinky when a PC heads to an area for the first time, risking literally life and limb, hacks her way to the boss, and it has already been killed for this reset. Kinda anticlimactic, don'tcha think? Crying or Very sad

Amen, Eric.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:35 pm

In a sense, 1-per-reset actuall encourages not just the farming, but the speed farming.... it rewards the farmers (who get the fun of killing the baddie, and the loot from it's kill), but punishes those who don't teleport off to those spots right after a reset (by the means of... they never get to have the fun of that fight themselves)
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Post by RayvenNightkind Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:47 pm

Both points here are well founded. Would love to see some changes to both.
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Post by Kefrem Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:35 pm

Maybe the bosses could be set to recognize(scriptwise) if a player has killed it once when crossing its spawn trigger. Then you could only get it once per reset, but every person could do it once then.
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:27 am

Kefrem wrote:Maybe the bosses could be set to recognize(scriptwise) if a player has killed it once when crossing its spawn trigger. Then you could only get it once per reset, but every person could do it once then.
I was thinking along those lines myself - if if could be done with a minimum of fuss, I I think this would be a fair way to shore up the once-per-reset restrictions, giving every PC a chance to participate in the battle.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:20 am

I've noticed that with some bosses as well. The Elder Mind Flayer brain boss thingme has the same problem. If I didn't get to it first I wouldn't have gotten the fluids needed for the armor. Now that I have the armor though, I don't touch it so that others can get it. Not to mention that it's a complete pushover.

I'm in favor of upping the loot of boss creatures, as well as making them spawn more/spawn once for each person per reset. I agree that it encourages less farming, at least in theory.
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Post by jazzable Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:48 am

Hm, this may be somewhat radical, but i´d like to see the loot amount reduced by a good bit, at least for the normal critters. With all the powerful stuff available plus in-game crafting options plus the mighty voucher items almost everybody becomes a walking fortress, immune to everything and dealing godlike damage all over the board. With less loot (quality-and quantitywise) there would actually be a reason and the need to party with other players, to plan ahead, use your brains and strategy and so on. I for once do miss the fun and the feeling of accomlishment one gets when reaching a goal through good partyplay and skill. Blame me for being old-fashioned, but that´s what PnP was all about! Smile
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:31 pm

jazzable wrote:Hm, this may be somewhat radical, but i´d like to see the loot amount reduced by a good bit, at least for the normal critters. With all the powerful stuff available plus in-game crafting options plus the mighty voucher items almost everybody becomes a walking fortress, immune to everything and dealing godlike damage all over the board. With less loot (quality-and quantitywise) there would actually be a reason and the need to party with other players, to plan ahead, use your brains and strategy and so on. I for once do miss the fun and the feeling of accomlishment one gets when reaching a goal through good partyplay and skill. Blame me for being old-fashioned, but that´s what PnP was all about! Smile

I would tend to agree on the point on loot value... massive mid-high end loot on the rank-n-file baddies tends to lead to GP not having much value.

However, as for making the baddies harder, making it a need to party up, I would be completely against. Not because I'm anti-social, but there's a number of times when I log on and there's nobody else on, or nobody else near my level range, and I'm sure others have logged on to a empty or nearly empty server as well. Or there are those players who log on for maybe 10, 15 minutes at a time due to their personal schedules. And there are times too when I just don't feel social and just want to bash some baddies or what not, particularly after dealing with rude-as-hell verbally abusive customers all day long!

And I've played on servers that required party-play. When there was nobody on, or nobody on who was in level range, it was either hunt well below my level, sit around in town twiddling my thumbs hoping someone of acceptable level logs on, or log off myself. PnP was all about playing with friends, but with a PW online experience, it just isn't as doable, not without making the server unplayable/unenjoyable for a number of players.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:38 pm

*ahem*... I know this ALL TOO WELL...
(Begin rant)
Spoiler:
The server I come from/still play on if you don't have a "balanced party of four" (As the world lead puts it) you aren't going far with enemies your level. Either you grind for hours or more on a single level, or you start a regular gaming group. Death carries a penalty of 50% of the XP needed for next level, (No XP debt/deleveling) and the XP cap per monster is (PC level +25).
(End rant)

So... that said
I also am not in favor of increasing monster power. For the record, not everyone does massive amounts of damage. Talk to me cleric and you'll see what I mean. She can't fight beholders at all, which tends to be the best reliable source of XP around.
The problem I see with lowering the loot drops on normal enemies is the same problem the aforementioned server has. At that point you have the problem of: If you don't know the right spot to get decent loot, you have little to none at all. Granted that they don't have custom items, but custom items dont overcome that much of a disadvantage alone.

So yeah... while the loot is a little much IMHO, it's better than having not enough loot. The same goes for creatures. Slightly easier enemies that would be optimal is better than more difficult than it should be.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:01 pm

Well, some monsters I would like to see get a HP boost, if not necessarily a power boost Smile It would make some fights more drawn out rather than a great-cleave spammage... put more value into feats like dev crit, spells and abilities like wail, finger of death, PM arm attacks, ect.

I find dracoliche's and ancient red dragons very enjoyable because they do take a lot of beating (although on the other hand, I find trolls NOT so enjoyable because they take insane amount of beating!)
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:41 pm

I dont think it is easy to find awesome loot on rank and file baddies anymore. At least not of the equippable variety. You may rarely find a very valuable item but it wont be something you can use.... it will be saleable... and the shops have had thier inventories randomized and reduced so that it is much harder to find the exceptional quality items now. There are still plenty of good items, dont get me wrong... but once you are talking about epic levels, you need the best of the best.... and that stuff only drops of bosses and so rarely its like a job trying to find it. Not fun.

Custom items do help... when you accrue enough hours to earn them... what about folks who dont have the hours? They still need to be able to find good loot without having to *farm* for it.

And no, I do not support any sort of balance changes that would force party-play. Yes thats what PnP D&D is based around, but how many PnP games have you been to that devolved into arguments because two PCs shouldnt have been thrown in together? My self I have seen a few to put it lightly.

Aside from that, as a computer game, soloing is the heart and soul of the experience.... is party play fun? absolutely, but as manny said it is not always an option for a TON of different reasons.... folks should be able to play how they see fit (solo if they wish to), as long as it doesnt hurt others ability to make play how they wish.

As for the in-game crafting, not everybody builds for that... in fact few actually do... unless you build for it, it is irrelevant because there is so rarely a PC crafter online to make things for you. Until there are more ways to qualify or obtain the feats needed for crafting that dont suck the feats from your build (like a semi-class or somesuch), I would be against any balance changes that put it forth as a justification for reducing loot availability.

I dont know what normal critters you are thinking of that are giving too much loot... but I have to balance that point of view against the multitudes of players who have complained about how hard it is to get good loot from normal enemies. My post was more based around boss loot, but even so.... the normal enemies dont give such great loot to begin with with a handful of exceptions.
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