Harm

Harm's description now heavily implies that it's usable by non-ragnor clerics (33% damage, but always takes a target down to 10hp if cast by a ragnor cleric...), but when I tried using it with my mystara cleric, I got the "Mystara does not grant this spell" feedback.

Is this change supposed to be live yet, or was the spell description updated in preparation for the change?

D'oh! Supposed to be live, but evidently I forgot to remove the "blocking code".

Is there any sort of dmg cap on harm?

hate to say it, but its probably a little overpowered to have clerics dishing out over 500 dmg with a single spell and no save... especially on bosses with over 1k hitpoints.

Give it a will save for 2/3 maybe to compensate?

I wouldn't want the spell to have a save, as that would break part of the beauty of its design. I just dont like the idea of clerics popping out such massive chunks of dmg (no random dice rolls on dmg, etc) with one spell that by design does not allow avoidance (past the touch attack mind you).

I would honestly recommend a cap around 500 or so. At least force multiple successful castings to cripple baddies with 1k+ hitpoints.

What about Ragnor clerics getting 95% of hp instead? I think it should be at least more or less on par with an Asis cleric's Heals.

Ra Cha Chongo wrote:What about Ragnor clerics getting 95% of hp instead? I think it should be at least more or less on par with an Asis cleric's Heals.

Well, that not exactly going to result in a significant combat impact....

I realize Asis clerics getting 100% healing would lead one to think that the inverse spell Harm would result in 100% damage. It makes a balance issue, though.

95% of 1,000 hps would be 950. No spell does (or should do) that much damage with no save against living targets. It would basically mean Ragnor clerics obliterate very powerful enemies with little to no effort. One harm, and then a simple follow up for the last 5%.

Now, sure... we -could- redesign the enemies by giving them immunities or more hitpoints to try and balance it 9which would create new issues), but I think thats a lot less efficient, and a lot more work than just capping the maximum output of the Harm spell.

Im not saying the harm spell shouldn't kick ass. It just shouldn't kick more ass than anything else in the game.... its not even a 9th level spell, and doing 95% dmg with no save would make it -more- powerful than any of the 9th level spells.

That's more powerful than epic spells....

Point proven, and a 500HPcap isn't all that unreasonable. I'm in favor.

33% uncapped isn't a balance issue honestly. A comparable and more widely used spell does 25% min, 50% damage if it's fail is saved. While there's no save for harm, nor is there 50% capability.

For ragnor clerics, it should be a very kickass spell, more than other clerics as ragnor clerics are blocked from using heal.

A cap could be called for, but I think it should be a percentage cap to keep it the premier damager of the game a good bit beyond what cleave health offers. It'd be a kick to the face to block ragnor clerics from heal and then let arcane casters perform better with the lower level non-diety restricted spell.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:That's more powerful than epic spells....

On that note... the damages from the epics is pretty meh. Max rolls, hellball(40d6) can do 240, greater ruin(35d6) 210. Horrid's does 25d8 for a max of 200, which is a lower number of dice, but a higher value per die. I on average get 120 damage on horrids on a failed save, and about 130 on average for greater ruin on a failed save.... which kinda sucks really. DC wise, non-focused the DC's only 2 less for horrid's as well.

I think the cap should be 500 dmg for harm, regardless of what type of cleric is casting it. Ragnor clerics will hit the cap more often, but I dont think non-ragnor clerics should be left uncapped with the potential to outdamage ragnor clerics with the spell.

While I have never seen cleave health do over 500 damage, it wouldnt bother me in the slightest (in fact, it would be a good idea) to cap cleave health as well. It is lower level than harm, but it does allow a save, I would think a cap of 400 wouldnt be out of order (and would almost never be achieved to begin with, but just having the cap would make certain harm's top end is better).

Ok, quick reasonable logical rundown of the numbers.

1K HP target.

Harm, touch attack, will save vs negative energy for 1/2 damage.
Cleave, no touch attack, 50% of current HP on failed save, 25% on success ful save.

Ragnor Harm, save failed: 990 HP damage.
Ragnor Harm, save made: 495 hp damage

Wiz/Sorc Cleave, save failed: 500 hp damage
Wiz/sorc cleave, save made: 250 damage.

Other cleric harm, save failed: 330 hp damage
Other cleric harm, save made: 165 hp damage

Let's be honest here, Harm is the higher level spell, has both a touch attach and a save component... Even for non ragnor clerics, it should be the top end damager above the arcane caster equivalent.

The current numbers are showing otherwise.

Honestly there should be no cap. If 500HP will rarely happen for a 50% damager, it's just plain simple logic that it will happen less often or a 33% damager. And for ragnor clerics, they should be beyond the restrictions of other clerics. Harm for them should be equivalent to slay living, or disintegrate, both of which are touch attack+save spells... but if you fail the harm save, it hurts a LOT more.


*edit: After reading over the previous posts, yes, harm DOES have a save as well as a touch attack component for those who are unaware

Likewise, the Inflict series of spells seems to follow a pretty reasonable progression, ending with Inflict Critical doing 200 hp of damage on a failed save, or 400 hp for clerics of Ragnor (assuming a 1000 hp target, as above).

Following that progression, Harm cast by a cleric of Ragnor shouldn't have a damage cap lower than 60% of the target's hp, as a minimum. Personally, I'm content with the spell the way it is, but I wouldn't object to the "10 hp left" thing being changed to some small percentage of the target's maximum hp.

95% would be reasonable to me.

So to be clear, harm has been verified in game to have a save now?

I remember back when I was testing new baddies that was not the case.

If ad did add a save for half, then that certainly changes the need for a cap.

Yes.

, Follow up question...

Could Harm and the inflict line of spells be tweaked to be targetable on the caster? Only really a benefit to vampire clerics, but as the cure spells hurt them, it kinda sucks to have to rely on a second vampire cleric around to cast spells on each other to heal up, if there is a second vampire cleric PC around to start with.

I agree harm should be targetable on the caster, so it works for PC
vampires as a heal.

Also, not that it is a big deal considering that harm allows a save now and hence no need for a cap... but I just wanted to say I dont necessarily think non-ragnor clerics should always be able to outdamage arcane casters on the harm/cleave comparison. I think its fine the way it is, but if any changes were made, I would rather see both spells do equivalent damage to how cleave works now. When it comes to damage, I think arcane magic is more geared toward offense and damage dealing and divine spells that dish out equivalents should be higher level.

As I said, not that it matters, just expressing my view.