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Post by MannyJabrielle Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:48 pm

Suggestion for skill proficient rogues, assassins, and rangers...

Make HiPs available to rogues, assassins, and rangers. For rogues/assassins, they have to meet a skill requirement. Say, 20 hide, and only selectable as a bonus feat (to keep it restricted to the stealthy classes still).

For rangers, not sure if this is 3.0 rules, but I know for certain 3.5 grants HiPs to rangers at level 17 or 18, but it only functions in outdoor areas (this functionality IS doable, there's a hak out there that does this)

The reason? Seems just plain odd that rogues, who can have insane hiding skills, can't slip into hiding as easily as a level 6 character who happens to have a PrC. It's a non-magical ability, and a sufficiently skilled stealth class like rogue and assassin should be able to do it, if they meet the requirement.

This still keeps it a huge bonus to take SD (you can get it very early, no skill requirement outside the skill requirements for shadowdancer, no possible multiclassing XP penalty since SD's a prestige class, plus SD still has it's other goodies left intact (shadow daze, shadow evade, free defensive roll and imp.evasion, ect), but also allows the possibility for master rogues/assassins to more effectively use those 40+ skill points (honestly... if you're going 20 in hide, you're putting as much into move silently too!).
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Post by daveyeisley Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:56 pm

Yes. Simply, yes.

Down with the Shadow Dancer HiPS monopoly!!!

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Post by RustyDios Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:52 am

Gotta Say I like the idea.. but, re-leveling skill dumping with 1 level of Rogue (with enough skill points to play with) will then if done on say lv39 will give access to HiPS, Tumble and a wealth of other stuff .... .. still sounds like a super cool idea ....
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:08 am

Sure, but that can also be done currently with 1 level of Shadowdancer... and HiPS would be granted for free, so no extra feat required (and could even be done pre-epic). Spending an Epic feat for the above method is quite a pricetag.

The only differences are the feat requirements for Shadowdancer (which can be paid pre-epic and then the feat can be gained in Epic levels for free with 1 Shadowdancer level), and that Rogues/Assassins/Rangers would need to burn a feat to get HiPS (and in order to use the above method at level 39, it would need to be an Epic feat). So it would just be a matter of spending feats ahead of time for SD, or spending on the spot for Rogue/Assassin/Ranger.

Also with Shadowdancer being a prestige class and not counting towards multiclassing penalties, using Rogue or Ranger to qualify will end up saddling most PCs with an XP penalty (have fun getting 500,000 XP together for a stat buy from Lady Shea with that, especially if you also have a subrace). Assassins are a prestige class and have no feat requirement, but they are alignment restricted.


EDIT: As Manny points out below, the above method would not be possible because HiPS would only be available as a bonus feat which none of these classes would gain by investing only a single level.


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Post by Angel of Death Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:18 am

For rangers, not sure if this is 3.0 rules, but I know for certain 3.5 grants HiPs to rangers at level 17 or 18, but it only functions in outdoor areas (this functionality IS doable, there's a hak out there that does this)
Its 3.5E.

Rangers get HiPS at 17th level (in any sort of natural terrain only), and Assassins gets it at 8th level.
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Post by uriel1996 Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:16 am

Angle of Death is correct - but HiPS for rogues? No. I hate that idea. Why ever go SD. Above reasoning of SD "goodies" is laughable. HiPS is the SD goodies. There is 0 reason the make an SD if rogues git HiPS, awful, awful idea. You get sneak, you can take defensive roll, and imp. evasion. I'm sorry, but making a feat give away to cannibalize another class super duper annoys me.
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Post by uriel1996 Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:32 am

I'm sorry for the double post. My post above is pretty harsh in tone, but rather than edit it I'll let it stand. Yesterday when I saw this suggestion I was even more annoyed.

I played a lot of NWN2 that used the 3.5 rules and I have no problem with how rangers and assassins got their versions of hips (rangers out doors @ level 17, and assassins @ assassin level Cool. One thing to keep in mind for NWN2 was we had 30 levels to build a character with. But I just see HiPS for rogues as being a bit indulgent at the cost of making SD's entirely superfluous, for a stun that works a few rounds and a summon that simply doesn't do much, and you need to spend 2 feats to get the class, meanwhile rogues get bonus feats pre-epic to accommodate a desire to qualify for epic dodge in epic levels, and the opportunity to make sneaks more nasty - there is little comparison.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:16 am

RustyDios wrote:Gotta Say I like the idea.. but, re-leveling skill dumping with 1 level of Rogue (with enough skill points to play with) will then if done on say lv39 will give access to HiPS, Tumble and a wealth of other stuff .... .. still sounds like a super cool idea ....

Wouldn't be possible. Rogues don't receive their first bonus feat until level 10.

uriel1996 wrote:I'm sorry for the double post. My post above is pretty harsh in tone, but rather than edit it I'll let it stand. Yesterday when I saw this suggestion I was even more annoyed.

No problem with not liking it. Everyone's got a right to their opinions Smile

I do think the SD bonuses are great though. The summon's not too great, sure, but shadow evade? DR, concealment and dodge AC? That's pretty good. Shadowdaze... it's duration isn't so great, but it's still a very good ability, especially for a dex-monkey. My SD's DC on it is 40+.. which is around what my epic sorc with epic spell focuses and a higher score in relevant ability gets for her 9th level spells.

And yes, Rogues can buy defensive roll and imp evasion on their bonus feat lists, but SD's get them for free and with fewer levels.... Plus with my idea, rogues wouldn't get HiPs for free... they'd have to buy it with a bonus feat. So that's 16 rogue levels for 10 SD levels for the same feats. That's actually pretty big. SD's will also still get HiPs for free at SD1. There's PLENTY of reasons to still make shadowdancers.

Using my own characters as an example: My vampire Angelica is a wizard26/rogue13/sd1. Even with this suggestion, it's still better for her to take SD. She doesn't lose caster levels as she'd have to take another 3 rogue levels to get another rogue bonus feat.

Angar, my beastial fighter/acrobat/SD. To get all the stuff he gets from his fighter/acrobat levels... 10+ levels of rogue just isn't viable, and would give an multiclass penalty anyway unless I dropped a lot of fighter levels (and thus lost a lot of fighter bonus feats).

Abigail, my monk/sd/fighter. Sure she could drop her 25 SD for 25 rogue, but she'd lose shadow daze, shadow evade, and then there's the bonus feats....

Consider 25 rogue vs 25 SD. Both classes get 5 bonus feats with that level range. ROgues have to burn 3 of those on defensive roll, imp.evasion and if this idea is used...HiPs. That leaves them 2 bonus feats. SD's get all three of those for free, plus 5 bonus feats that could be spent on say... Self Concealment I-V.

Still PLENTY of reasons why SD is a good class, even with rogues having access to HiPs as a buyable bonus feat.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:48 am

Sorry, giving HiPS as a possible bonus feat to Rogues would not in any way threaten the benefits of Shadowdancers.

There is no faster way to qualify for Epic Dodge than Shadowdancer. None.

Shadowdancers get the Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion requirements for free with only 10 levels invested, while everyone else has to invest more levels and spend feats to get them. Same would go for HiPS with this suggestion.

That is the Shadowdancer "goodie", not HiPS.

All this is aside from the fact that it makes perfect RP sense for other stealth-focused classes to have access to HiPS.
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Post by blackdragon12121 Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:07 pm

I hope the SD gets some added love to the rest of his abilities because HIPS was the main draw for the class IMO. Shadow evade is merely decent - its crying out for a duration increase however. Shadow daze is also merely decent at best. If it's going to lose exclusivity to the one thing it had going for it, Shadow Evade could be improved at least. I'd personally rather have sneak attack over the rest of the SD boons.

Still...giving HIPS to other classes does kind of impose on the niche of the SD...
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:53 pm

If one feels none of the other class features make the class seem worthwhile, would one feel the Shadowdancer could be improved by moving HiPS from the 1st class level to the 10th class level? Of course not. One would want to be able to get that benefit as early as possible so as to avoid "wasting" more levels on the class.

Well, one can't do much better than getting that benefit for free, on the first class level.

It doesn't really make sense to say that free HiPS on the first class level is the main draw of Shadowdancers, and then turn around and argue against other classes getting access to it (to be purchased with a bonus feat only, mind you).

If the only reason one would take a Shadowdancer level is for HiPS, then one would be meeting the requirements and taking only a single level of the class, thereby limiting their multiclassing options to only two other classes. And all this just for that one ability.

If other classes are given access to HiPS, then the folks who would otherwise only be taking a single level of Shadowdancer to gain HiPS will have more (and probably more attractive) options, not less. It is a benefit for them, and cuts down on the "one level dips" for HiPS, which is a benefit for the entire server.

Some folks would still find plenty of value in the Shadowdancer class, and there will still be plenty of reasons to invest more heavily into the Shadowdancer class (especially if Shadow Evade gets some duration loving).

That is a flat-out win-win. Nobody loses anything.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:51 pm

SD's aren't the only ones with HiPs though, so it's not quite their niche. Assassins and rangers get it in PnP. The only radical change with my suggestion is assassins have to buy it with a feat, and rogues would have the access to buy it as well.
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Post by uriel1996 Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:10 pm

I posted earlier while I was in game and my post *poofed* in the aether.

It doesn't really make sense to say that free HiPS on the first class level is the main draw of Shadowdancers, and then turn around and argue against other classes getting access to it (to be purchased with a bonus feat only, mind you).

If the only reason one would take a Shadowdancer level is for HiPS, then one would be meeting the requirements and taking only a single level of the class, thereby limiting their multiclassing options to only two other classes. And all this just for that one ability.

If other classes are given access to HiPS, then the folks who would otherwise only be taking a single level of Shadowdancer to gain HiPS will have more (and probably more attractive) options, not less. It is a benefit for them, and cuts down on the "one level dips" for HiPS, which is a benefit for the entire server.

I have no problem with the level 17 ranger getting outdoors only HiPS, or a level 8 assassin getting it. My question is what does the rogue in question sacrifice? A class slot? maybe 3 feats to buy HiPS, does the rogue forego the class feature to sneak attack? I call foul on giving rogues HiPS. They have access to it, it's called SD. Buying HiPS with the rogue's *bonus feat* isn't a sacrifice. All the other SD goodies are weak except the ability to qualify for epic dodge.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:28 pm

uriel1996 wrote:I have no problem with the level 17 ranger getting outdoors only HiPS, or a level 8 assassin getting it. My question is what does the rogue in question sacrifice? A class slot? maybe 3 feats to buy HiPS, does the rogue forego the class feature to sneak attack? I call foul on giving rogues HiPS. They have access to it, it's called SD. Buying HiPS with the rogue's *bonus feat* isn't a sacrifice. All the other SD goodies are weak except the ability to qualify for epic dodge.

Yeah, doesn't make sense. You are advocating for "one level dips" into Shadowdancer for the free HiPS, rather than Rogues burning a bonus feat on it. I don't quite understand how you think expending a bonus feat for something is not a sacrifice, when that bonus feat could be used elsewhere (like for Improved Sneak Attack). You're giving up other options, that is a sacrifice.

Rogues do not have to burn their bonus feats to gain a level of Shadowdancer. Two non-epic general feats is all it takes, and boom, free HiPS. If the rogue has at least 3 levels in Acrobat, or a couple fighter levels, they don't even need to burn general feats for free HiPS.

I think you are overreacting to the suggestion, it isn't going to make rogues too powerful, or nerf Shadowdancers.

Also, the Ranger and Assassin in your example are sacrifcing nothing at all for their HiPS.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:44 pm

What does the assassin give up in that instance then?

Assassins could get HiPs as early as level 13 on 16 skill points if they got it at level 8 (5 levels of X class for the 8 hide/8ms, +8 levels of assassin).

They still have their death attacks (which is sneaks with a chance to paralyze), UMD, invis/imp.invis (I think, imp invis may be level 9 assassin), uncanny dodge, poison saves, ect.

With my suggestion, that same character going straight rogue woudln't be able to get it until level 19. (20 hide skill prerequisite, first available bonus feat after achieving 20 hide would be at 19th)... and it's not free. You have to meet the pre-requisite and then buy the feat.

And not a sacrifice? No, it's not a "sacrifice", but it *is* an investment. I see no problem with an investment being worth... the investment. 20 skill points and a feat isn't nothing.

We'll also have to disagree that the other SD abilities are weak. I've got a SD heavy character, and I find shadow-evade/shadow daze very solid abilites, even if I do think their durations need to be tweaked. I simply cannot understand how damage reduction of as much as +7/soak 18 could be considered weak. NO other class has that.

And I'll point again to my example of that SD heavy character of why SD is still a very valuable class.... and that's for a SD heavy build, much less someone taking a single level dip.

They have access to it, it's called SD.

This is the one thing you've argued so far that I have a real problem with. It's hyperbole. Rogues and shadowdancers are two different classes.

HiPs is a big part of SD, yes. Absolutely NO argument there. It's not all they are though.

They get 3 feats for free that rogues have to buy. They have abilities that rogues do not get at all, for free. They offer the quicker and more efficient route for qualifying for epic dodge and self concealment. They have no possible multiclassing XP penalty.

In Aenea, it's one of only two prestige classes you can take at character level 3.

30 rogue vs 30 SD... both get 6 selectable bonus feats. SD's get 3 more free on top of that, not including HiPs which the rogue has to buy with a feat to gain.

I simply cannot find any valid reasoning for the argument that this would make SD's obsolete. The facts just don't support it.
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Post by uriel1996 Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:17 pm

Yeah, doesn't make sense. You are advocating for "one level dips" into Shadowdancer for the free HiPS, rather than Rogues burning a bonus feat on it. I don't quite understand how you think expending a bonus feat for something is not a sacrifice, when that bonus feat could be used elsewhere (like for Improved Sneak Attack). You're giving up other options, that is a sacrifice.

I am not advocating one level dips for **Free** HiPS. That "Free" HiPS is 10 skill points in hide + 8 skill points in move silently + 5 tumble + general feat Dodge + general feat Mobility + 1 class slot. When you balance that against a *bonus feat* @ rogue level 10 and every 3 levels thereafter in addition to incremental sneak attack damage I hardly think this point is even in the ballpark.

Rogues do not have to burn their bonus feats to gain a level of Shadowdancer. Two non-epic general feats is all it takes, and boom, free HiPS. If the rogue has at least 3 levels in Acrobat, or a couple fighter levels, they don't even need to burn general feats for free HiPS.


That pesky "free HiPS" just cost the rogue 2 general feats and skill reqs, and multi-class slot. Need to burn general feats for Acrobat, still need skill reqs, and it costs a multi-class slot. That Rogue/Fighter burned 2 bonus feats and their last multi-class slot. "Free HiPS" isn't free at all.

I think your are overreacting to the suggestion, it isn't going to make rogues too powerful, or nerf Shadowdancers.

This has been my point the entire time. The singlemost ability that benefits heads an shoulders above all others from HiPS is sneak attack. It's Super-Duper Sweet to have both abilities working for you. HiPS and Sneak Attack is like chocolate and peanutbutter, but pointy-er and better. Wouldn't it be nice if there was one base class that had it? But it never happened. HiPS is an amazing ability defensively and offensively. For NWN it comes from the shadowdancer factory, located somewhere in Germany. It's a high performance machine, in the right hands it's devastating and more fun than a trampoline filled with ferrets. The only sticking-point was it was never free. If rogues get HiPS for the bargain price of 1 *bonus feat* & have the ability to have insane sneak attacks & have the ability to qualify for epic dodge... I dunno. I think I see some angry ferrets around the corner.

"Also, the Ranger and Assassin in your example are sacrifcing nothing at all for their HiPS."

Ranger HiPS: Outdoors only + 17 levels invested. Part of 3.5 ruleset.

Assassin HiPS, Must be evil, 8 hide, 8 move silently, + 1 class slot. Part of 3.5 ruleset.

That's all I have to say on this. Please do point to my arguments with any reference to "free HiPS" The only free HiPS I see is your suggestion of giving it to rogues.

Cordially,
cheers
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:33 pm

just to clarify, my suggestion does not give rogues Hips at level 10.

As noted in an earlier post, the soonest a rogue would qualify for it is level 19.

The only way a 10 rogue would be able to get it is with multiclassing, but it still has the suggested 20 skill point prerequisite.

And then obviously becomes interchangable with Shadowdancer as that "sacrificed class slot" as it's multiclassing....

Which logically leads to "Why then choose rogue over SD?" as you can take 1 level of shadow dancer to get hips as opposed to 10 levels of rogue.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Or if "Cost of the ability" is an issue.

Change the prerequisite from 20 points of hide to epic skill focus hide.

Same investment +1 feat investment, + only available to epic rogues.

That negates the "SD's have to burn 2 feats" and take up a class slot.

A fighter 20: Go 10 rogue, burn two feats, get HiPs. Does not qualify for ED/SCI-V

Or

A fighter 20: go 10 shadow dancer, burn two feats, get HiPs, slippery mind, defensive roll, and improved evasion. Qualifies for ED/SCI-V

Both instances...

Class slot sacrificed, 2 feats burned.

Pros/cons: One gets a load of free feats and qualifies for ED/SCI-V. The other gets sneak attacks and UMD.
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:24 pm

The multiclassed build options I stated were put forth in the context of builds that already had those classes for reasons other than HiPS. Hence the wording "if the Rogue has 3 levels of ...etc" not "if the rogue takes..."

Good of you to miss that, really, because if that had been included in your reasoning, it would have indeed made the HiPS free as I stated, as those builds would already have the the skill ranks and feats required for Shadowdancer. And all with only 4 or 5 character levels invested, especially with the right subrace.

You may not call it free HiPS, but you certainly are advocating for "one level dips".

In the comparison of feat and skill requirements, comparing the requirements for a 10 level Prestige Class to the proposed requirements for a single feat is hardly in the ballpark.

What is required to gain a single feat (HiPS) should be much less than what is required to gain entry to a 10 level Prestige Class. Simply because you might not take all 10 levels of that class doesn't mean the one ability you like from the class should have those same requirements to gain just that single ability for another thematically appropriate class.

A single-class Rogue has to wait till level 17 (and burn 20 skill points) to meet the skill requirement for this suggestion, and level 19 for the bonus feat to purchase HiPS. That ain't free, it is a very significant investment.

A multiclass character (rogue or otherwise) could just go 1 Shadowdancer for free HiPS. Theres multiple ways to do it, and it is faster and cheaper on level investment.

That doesn't mean however that multiclassing with a "one level dip" into Shadowdancer should be the only way, or even the encouraged way to gain HiPS.

Nor does it mean single-class Rogues should not have access at all, that just makes no sense thematically.

This is an excellent suggestion because it gives single class rogues access, but they have to invest many more levels in Rogue and actually expend a bonus feat if they want HiPS without multiclassing.


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Post by RustyDios Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:44 pm

Okay .. well I'm warming to the idea ... So lv19 (minimum) rogue level needed for HiPS ... well by lv 19 that rogue could easily meet the pre-req's for SD anyway right ? ... .... and it's only going to be one of those lv10+ rogue bonus feats... .. so you couldn't do a 1lv dip into rogue to get it (plus loads of class-skills) ... (yet you could still do a 1lv with SD to get it) ...

How about it having a 20 Hide & 16 Move Silently requirement ... the stealth/hide action uses both of these, the SD requires both, so I think HiPS as a bonus feat should too ... (((why 20/16 ? it's the same proportions as the req for SD, just made sense to me somehow))) .... .... maybe it should also require dodge and mobility .... then other then the skill point difference, the only thing a HiPSing rogue would benefit from is one less class slot consumed, but would still have to pay plenty of price ...


And if it does go in, then yes I also believe Rangers should get it (for outdoors only), and that Assassins should have it too... Bring down the SD monopoly of HiPS totally .... ....

I really do like the idea ... I'd love HiPS for a rogue/stealthy PC ... but maybe without upping the other SD abilities it might make it "better mechanically" to go rogue...

... I'll say at the moment I'm in the group feeling that SD will loose their main class ability, and become effectively pointless... but I like the idea ... the real crux would be to make the change and then monitor the effects... the problem there then becomes what if we find that no-one is a SD ?.. We can't really then roll-back the decision without causing another argument ... ... ... ... .... ... ...
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Post by daveyeisley Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:15 pm

I am awestruck by how undervalued the Shadowdancer class beyond HiPS is by some folks. I'm not even a huge fan of the class, and I see so much more good things in it than just HiPS.

To me, HiPS isn't even that great. Its more like unlimited invisibility on an item, except it slows you down, can fail to hide you, and can't be done in melee. It really isn't any better overall than an unlimited invisibility item (other than invis potions which provoke attacks of opportunity).

@Rusty- I don't think using the same requirements for Rogues/Assassins to gain HiPS as for gaining Shadowdancer is the way to go. The rogue isn't gaining access to all the Shadowdancer abilities and free feats. The rogue is getting only one thing for their feat, and that one thing is not equal to the whole SD class. EDIT: adding the Move Silent skill requirement would make some good sense, though.
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Post by blackdragon12121 Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:52 am

Has HiPS been altered on Aenea?
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Post by Angel of Death Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:43 am

blackdragon12121 wrote:Has HiPS been altered on Aenea?
No.

You can check the class list on the front page for more info on what classes has been altered, here. Smile
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Post by RustyDios Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:35 am

Good points above , I do think it would be a good idea.. but I think the pre-req's need tweaking, to make it a little harder to get for rogues .. .. I don't know why I feel this, I just do .... I think the addition of the MS skill is a good way to go about that ....

And I still feel SD's will be loosing their main class benefit, unless the other abilities get at least a duration boost...
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:43 am

RustyDios wrote:And I still feel SD's will be loosing their main class benefit, unless the other abilities get at least a duration boost...

Hey, cmon now, be fair. SD's wouldnt lose anything from this. HiPS itself just wouldn't be totally exclusive anymore, and it shouldn't be. No reason for a Rogue who wants HiPS to be forced to take a one level SD dip for it.

Also, I think I know why you feel the way you do... because SDs do not gain sneak attack and UMD. That does make some sense. But SDs get a lot more than just HiPS (albeit we all seem to totally agree that the SD abilities need durations boosts at a minimum).
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Post by blackdragon12121 Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:21 pm

If HiPS hasn't been changed on Aenea then no way is it anything like unlimited invisibility...at all
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:31 pm

How do you figure?

With the baddies in Aenea, it's either they have true seeing, or they have very lousy spot/listen skill... and a vast majority don't have TS.

So, pop on your cloak of invisibility, they can't see you, unless they have TS. Or go into stealth... in which case they are VERY unlikely to see you, unless they have TS.

To me, that makes HiPs and invis act in a very, almost identical fashion. The primary difference is one can be done by anyone, the other only by a select few, and it reduces your movement and you have to disengage from combat.

am I missing something that makes HiPs completely unlike invisibility in this regard?
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Post by daveyeisley Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:17 pm

blackdragon12121 wrote:If HiPS hasn't been changed on Aenea then no way is it anything like unlimited invisibility...at all

Bold words. Feel free to explain, go into detail please. I am sure this discussion would benefit from more information.

The above words are merely an opinion. Give us some facts to support it.

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Post by Elhanan Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:22 am

MannyJabrielle wrote:How do you figure?

With the baddies in Aenea, it's either they have true seeing, or they have very lousy spot/listen skill... and a vast majority don't have TS.

So, pop on your cloak of invisibility, they can't see you, unless they have TS. Or go into stealth... in which case they are VERY unlikely to see you, unless they have TS.

To me, that makes HiPs and invis act in a very, almost identical fashion. The primary difference is one can be done by anyone, the other only by a select few, and it reduces your movement and you have to disengage from combat.

am I missing something that makes HiPs completely unlike invisibility in this regard?

Uncertain if this comes into play much at all, but those Flaming Men seem to have increased senses; maybe others. And when I was under full Invisibility, they still continued to track and run me to ground. I am guessing HiPS will not fare much better.

As for me, I am for Rangers and other 3.5 classes gaining this. However, it is my contention that HiPS should have been a high prerequisite feat in the first place rather than an ability.
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Post by daveyeisley Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:54 pm

Elhanan wrote:However, it is my contention that HiPS should have been a high prerequisite feat in the first place rather than an ability.
*APPLAUSE*

Spot on. Correct. Perfect. Bravo!

I have no problem with Shadowdancers gaining HiPS for free on their first class level, but it should never have been class exclusive. It should have tough requirements, but any character who can meet those should be able to burn a feat for it.

Thinking on it some more.... there should probably be a base Dexterity requirement too... like 18 or something. Easy for a Dex-based character to hit, but hard for a Str-focused character.

And on top of an 18 base Dexterity requirement, make HiPS part of a Feat Chain, with the Epic Skill Focus(Hide) feat as a requirement, as well as the 20 Hide and 16 Move Silent skill requirements. This would prevent having 40th level Fighters and Paladins with HiPS.

Also grant Shadowdancers the Stealthy feat for free at level 1 to go along with HiPS.
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Post by blackdragon12121 Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:48 am

I should apologize. I just realized that you considered invisibility potions separately. I've just come from a world where PVP was allowed so in that respect, HiPS was a lot better than invisibility. Against Aenea monsters well, it probably isn't that different.
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:07 am

blackdragon12121 wrote:I should apologize. I just realized that you considered invisibility potions separately. I've just come from a world where PVP was allowed so in that respect, HiPS was a lot better than invisibility. Against Aenea monsters well, it probably isn't that different.

Hey, no problem. Im sure on PvP worlds they probably changed the way True Seeing works, too, which would make HiPS ungodly powerful.

Still, other than that, the only difference I can see mechanically that is in favor of HiPS over Invisibility is the fact that you can activate HiPS more than once per round (roughly once for each flurry), so you could in theory sneak attack on the first flurry, use a Disengage Hotkey and HiPS Hotkey to Stealth for the second flurry, and if you were fast enough, sneak attack on the third flurry.

It would also make it very difficult for enemies to effectively respond if you HiPS after each single flurry of combat. I believe it is called "HiPS spam".

True Seeing (which many Aenea bosses have, and in its default form) totally breaks this cheese maneuver, however.

And unlimited invis on an item works almost just as well, with the limitation that it can only be activated once per round (so you might have to deal with a few attacks or a spell), but it wont slow you, it won't fail to break combat (no stealth/detection roll), and it can be done without moving away or Disengaging (so it can be done even when surrounded).
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Post by A_Vagabond Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:29 am

If you don't disengage with invis, you lose it at the next strike.

Cloak of invisibility works well, in that there's no activation, you just hotkey it, and you get invis as soon as it swaps in.

Just agreeing with you Smile
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Post by daveyeisley Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:44 am

Yah, I know Smile

Actually using an invis item like a scroll interrupts the default melee action queue, so that wont require a disengage.
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