Not Used: A Change To Dev Crit

*ducks first, then finishes thought*

Instead of a ST vs Death, what of allowing another Crit multiplier getting added to the desired weapon, and one that stacks with the same ability function for WM. This version would also be able to be chosen for Ranged weapons, allowing a Longbow to improve from x3 to x4 multiplier.

If possible, perhaps this would not affect those that already have the older version, or maybe allow an option for those that do not wish to switch.

Thoughts? And thanks!

Unfortunately, Devastating Critical is a hardcoded feat. Besides not allowing it (by scripting a "you can't level up with that feat" or by altering 2da files in a hak), there's really nothing much that can be done with the feat.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Unfortunately, Devastating Critical is a hardcoded feat. Besides not allowing it (by scripting a "you can't level up with that feat" or by altering 2da files in a hak), there's really nothing much that can be done with the feat.

Could a new Feat be implemented that did allow a higher Crit multiplier, and used the same or sim prereqs as Dev Crit; using STR or DEX?

Personally, I dislike Dev Crit as a choice; makes the game a breeze, and can ruin party play as one simply follows with little interaction. But doing more dmg appears to be better balanced, and would seem to be more managable for both Players and designers.

I like dev crit as is. It is the ultimate ftr/wpn master feat, and is limited enough that it is not overpowering in aenea imo.

Skywatcher wrote:I like dev crit as is. It is the ultimate ftr/wpn master feat, and is limited enough that it is not overpowering in aenea imo.

As mentioned, it does make the game extremely easy; the party aspect rather dull. A noted exception is when the opponents are Immune to Crit, as when the Aenean defenders assembled to oppose the vast armies of Undead seen a few years ago. But when the opposition has to make the ST or die, Beholders, dragons, Outsiders, etc become insignificant. I choose to avoid it.

However, I like Overwhelming Crit, Bane of Enemies, and those abilities that increase dmg. Generally, the bosses have plenty of hp, healing, or both to make the battles lengthy enough to be praiseworthy; not anti-climactic as with Dev Crit and other ST or perish spells and abilities.

Beholders are not insignificant for melee builds, without time stop/word of faith/sunbeam aoe attacks, unless you have 40SR then beholders are plenty tough enough even with dev crit. I know, I have played with the beholders a lot, and while easier now that they are spread out, a melee character walking into a spawn of 8 beholders was not trivial. And on those occasions when 2 elders are together now, they can still cause problems. Ye, once you get 40 SR beholders are easy, but at that point pretty much everything is easy except the abyss.

I would prefer to see some more epic areas, with some souped up undead like they have in Shadow Mountain, interspersed with some uber werebats and vampires. All of which except the werebats would be immune to dev crit.

My 2 cents -

Dev Crit is fine in its current form, in my opinion. Dev crit doesnt let you kill things you couldnt already have killed. It just speed up the process.... sometimes.... if you get lucky with threat/crit rolls.

It is very powerful (and it is also very difficult to qualify for, you have to forego most other feat trees to gain it), but it is not a one-stop solution to melee combat. Plenty of enemies have killed or beaten the stuffing out of my dev crit PCs.

Its just that the enemies it works against become less threatening (such as dragons and the like). Even so, if you cant manage to roll a threat, or confirm a crit.... it does you no good, especially when the random rolls are unkind. Add to that the fact that enemies always have a 5% chance to resist.... I dont see a problem.

Truth be told, from my rather extensive experience, dev crit is damn near a wasted feat... simply because most enemies that it will kill would die from raw crit damage in one or two hits anyways... its sort of redundant. If you can dev crit the ancient wyrm, you could also just hit it a few times more and kill it without dev crit. Either way, the monster isnt much challenge, so the issue here isnt actually the dev crit feat.

The enemies that have tons of HPs that it kills... well, thats where the feat shines and so it should (soulborne demons for example).

NOTE: I have absolutely no issue with a new feat being added for increasing critical damage, especially a DEX based feat. Would be very nice. I am not so keen on the idea of it increasing crit multiplier - as that sort of impinges on the WeaponMaster class - but if such a feat were restricted to bows/ranged weapons that would not be an issue. I just think that Dev Crit itself should remain as is.

I still shake my head in dismay at the scimitar, kukri, and like Dev Crit wielders that go from a base 18-20/ Crit threat to 12-20/ Crit with Imp Crit and Keen added into the mix, and both available as pre-Epic selections. It is dull and boring to me to follow them in their Dev Crit wakes, and unimpressive.

And I can understand those that do want it should be able to take it as it is available, so I am not hollering for a ban; nor a change anymore since it cannot be done. It does have some heavy prereqs, which is why I am all for making new Feats based on them.

Impressive to me is the class design that shows someone smacking the same kind of damage as our good pal Gron. And a new couple of Feats that helped do this by using Increased Multipliers seems to be a good way of doing so; be it STR or DEX. The latter would also go a little way of showing some Aenean luv to many archers.

Dev crit is pretty much the warrior's answer to insta-kill spells. Granted the caster is limited to casts-per-day, but then again, the warrior doesn't have the ability to dish out the saves-or-die effects on masses at once with no need for an attack roll.

Okay let's investigate the "mighty" Devastating Critical ::::

Prerequisites:
Strength 25+, {High Str, possible as early as lv 1, yes lv 1.. a Beastial Half Orc with maxed Str and a "gifted" +1 tome }

Power Attack, {Strength 13, see above note}

Cleave, {strength 13+, power attack}

Great Cleave,{strength 13+, power attack, cleave, base attack bonus +4 ~
so at least 4th level of a combat class** (+1BAB/level}

Improved Critical (weapon to be chosen), {proficiency with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +8 ~ so at least 8th lv of a combat class}

Overwhelming Critical (weapon to be chosen),
{21st level Epic Character, strength 23+, cleave, great cleave, improved critical (chosen weapon), power attack}

**Combat classes ~~ arcane archer, barbarian, blackguard, champion of dalix, dwarven defender, fighter, paladin, purple dragon knight, ranger, and weapon master

So if I'm working this out correct you'd need to be at least a 22nd lv Ftr to qualify for Dev Crit ?... someone please correct me if I'm wrong ... ... 22 levels into one class following a strict feat tree (see above) is no "small investment" for gaining this feat ... .. just getting it is a pain in the a$$ and thus it should be something special ... ... ...

Effect:

A fortitude save or die instantly effect.
Creatures who are immune to critical hits are not affected by this feat. ...
... So this entire thing is actually useless against many of Aeneas Crit Immune bosses, hordes of undead across the server, many epic baddies of the dark realm and any ascended PC's (or NPC's for that matter!!) ... ... ...

The difficulty class of the save is 10 + ½ character level + strength modifier.

So minimum (at 22nd lv) is 10 + 11 + 7 = Fort Sv. DC 28

Maximum (at 40th lv) is 10 + 20 +
27 (highest Str score in Aenea calculated here : Hulk Smash Thread)

or 47 ( Hulk Smash Thread and 20 Str stat buys from Lady Shea, giving a possible 78 Str Score )

or 89 (as above but with +12 (maximum) Str gear) ...

Maximums = 57 .. or .. 77 .. or .. 119

Note that those maximums require an awful lot of effort on the players part to achieve, so still no easy thing to get.. and I'd not even dare contemplate the time investment for that 119 DC ! ((Any person putting that much effort into their PC deserves to insta-kill stuff IMO))

And all this only happens IF a critical hit is scored (okay ... the Keen Rapier wielding WM has a really easy job getting that part done, the threat range can be huge...
18-20 Rapier Base
15-20 Keen Rapier
12-20 Improved Critical
10-20 WM Ki Critical ... ... 10-20!)


So maybe instead of complaining about/nerfing Dev Crit itself we could look at maybe getting some enemies in Aenea with a minimum Fort Sv of 28 (or above), meaning that Dev Crits are highly possible, just even more unlikely ~ thus they become that much more special ??

Of course that doesn't address the possible roll of a 1 (instant failure), but that is the nature of the game, isn't it all just chance ? ... ... ..


Personally I like Dev Crit how it is.... but I do also agree that it CAN make the game a breeze, even more so if the Dev Crit'er is armed with a Vorpal, SlayAlignment, SlayCreatureFightingAgainst weapon ... .. ie, the enemy has to make FOUR saves to not die.. and then lets couple in a mage backup casting insta-kill spells at the poor thing....

In fact considering the crit-needed limitation of Dev Crit (and Vorpal) , I would personally say the Slay XXX properties of a weapon are much more to be feared/condemned by the OP argument, as these happen on EVERY hit, not just the criticals (( but to get them in Aenea you need to spend a custom item voucher, or time gathering materials.... ))

And then lets not forget the well planned out epic mage (with like 15 odd lv9 spell slots) , casting multiple AoE Wails, also not restricted to a critical hit .... .... ...

I do like the idea of a general feat that can increase crit damage BUT the extra damage option is a bonus of many classes, I think it will make them classes seem less powerful (Rgr Bane of Enemies, Various Sneak Attack/Death Attack, WM Increased Multiplier, etc etc) ...

Not to mention Dev Crit IS hardcoded, it's either you have it or you do not, there really isn't room for change to the feat itself... ...

If you are finding it's disrupting your personal play experience though, try mentioning it to the player in-game and offer up a Fully Crystallised, +5 WeaponTypeXXX (minimum design at least, maybe some extra dwarf mods like regen/vamp regen, massive crits etc) for that player to use instead of their focused weapon type...
... .... they may say no, they may say yes....
.... and yes this may mean that *you* will have to carry at least one of each weapon type to the above standard but considering the effort the Dev Crit'er (possibly) put into getting an awesome Dev Crit on everything potential, surely you can put some effort into offering them an alternative whilst in your company ?


Sorry if any of post seems condemning, abusive, argumentative or generally unpleasant, that is not my intent, merely to put some input in from a hopefully non-biased view point ... .. ..

As Manny and Rusty pointed out, Dev Crit is no more OP or "boring" to follow around than a caster who spams AoE save-or-die spells like Wail of the Banshee, etc.

When I play my casters, I generally try to spread out my castings of such spells, but a dev crit PC cant, and shouldnt be, expected to turn off one of his best feats.

If the party is finding that the feat is sucking the fun out of the hunt, I propose that the wrong enemies are being hunted... perhaps a different type of enemy or an area with a higher population/spawn numbers would be advisable.

The reality is, however, that in Aenea, we just dont yet have enough epic-level areas and baddies to give enough variety and challenge for epic PCs. The Dark Realm is a good start, but the spawns got nerfed, so it needs a challenge resurgence... but we also need to add more such areas.

I know my caster cannot spam such spells, but none of mine have the slots of those that have Reincarnated or Ascended. My 9th lvl slots for my mages have perhaps six, and 3-4 are selected for defensive choices like Extended Gr Sanctuary. Giess it does happen, but I do not believe that the DC's for such spells is as powerful as those met with Dev Crit.

Anyway, I opt to not use it even if available; nor do I often choose to select Harm and Heal as offensive choices either. For me, these are imbalanced abilities that make such beasties as dragons rather insignificant, And taking a large D out of D&D ain't a good thing for this Ancient gamer.

All that said, would like to see these suggested Epic feats appear, if possible.

Yeah six spell slots plus renewal potions would make such spells able to be cast just about every fight, even multiple casts in one fight, which is needed when soloing as a caster... but might make a party feel "left-out" if the caster spams them all over the place at every encounter.

The caster has a lot of lower level spells that aren't AoE save-or-dies, but can effectively come close.

I think the biggest bugger about dev crit on Aenea for me is when it's used against the PCs. Granted it's on I think just Gron and the Nemesis, and those two fights ARE supposed to be real nasty, and ideally supposed to be party fights... and not that I got a reasonable solution for it, but I do understand the desire to tweak dev crit based on just those two encounters.

The good thing at least is dev crit is just that unique among the baddies, and high requirements make it a hefty investment for PCs, particularly non fighter PCs who aren't hip deep in bonus feats.