To build an evil ninja...

So not like I don't have enough characters as is.... I'm thinking of a few new ones.

One I'm still very undecided on build-wise is an new evil minion for Aurora's "Darksider" crew, a stealthy ninja type.

Some rough ideas I have so far are (all drow):

1) Monk20/sd5/assassin15.  A puncher, but decent with shurikens as well... a very stealthy build with Hide in Plain Sight, epic dodge, self concealment 5, and a decent number of dice with death-attack.  Essentially his weapon is the body, so he would lack the classic obvious in-your-face "ninja swords" thing, but otherwise a very solid stealthy assassin.

2) Monk19/assassin14/wm7.  Much like above, but lacking HiPS and epic dodge, but has the iconic 'ninja swords' (short swords with the ninjato appearance, or may go with custom drow-rapiers... close enough). Improved crit rate, still very stealthy, but the stealth is "one shot" as once combat is engaged, there's no quick way to get back into stealth.

3) Fighter 10/wm7/assassin 23.  Much like #2, but STR based with dev-crit... lacking self concealment as well as epic dodge and HiPs, but still very stealthy.  And with the hard-hitting ninjatos, average fights would be over before they began anyway... a drow rapier variant, the crit rate would be pretty much every other hit landed.  Lay out traps, sneak in, stabitystabstab.... if the target is still breathing, run to the traps and lure the target into the traps.  If it's STILL breathing, stab again, should be dead.  If not.. might be problems with not a lot of defense in the build.

4) Rogue16/assassin17/wm7.  Dex based like #1 and #2, hard-hitting like #3 but without dev crit.  Very defensive minded, very stealthy.  Epic dodge, SC5, crippling strike with a high sneak/death dice number, good crit rate with the ninjatos, top notch crit rate for a drow-rapier variant.  Loads of other ninja themed goodies too, traps, UMD to make use of whatever other 'tools' are on hand... 

So... opinions?

Or better yet.... some other "ninja theme" build different from the above basic ideas?

Only criteria from my end is "stealth" based, little if any "magic".  And no builds reliant on "items"... yeah those permenant 50% concealment cloaks are nice, but annoy me actually with the flashy VFX... they just scream "Hi, I'm a walking magical confetti machine, look at me!"... SC3 to SC5 for any concealment in the build or just do without

I'm very fond of my Ranger23 / Rogue16 / SD1 DEX build for being a stealthy ninja type.  She even uses dual-wield wakazashis.  Or hits from range with a longbow, since she's an Elf. She also throws knives.

Whenever I play a module where I'm not sure what the best classing would be, or what if any items I'll get to augment, I always choose my Rogue/Ranger/SD1 DEX build with dual short swords (finessed) and longbow, because it's like a pure rogue for all those useful pasttimes, but sturdier for when you need to really fight (soften from range and melee sneak attacking from HIPS), and can use magic too in a pinch (although the only magic used very much is demagicking), and if things get too difficult she can disappear and pick them off one at a time with a HIPSing sneak attack vengence, or come back later to mine the place with traps, or bring buddies (ranger companion or scroll summons).  In Aenea she can even jump or transference to some inaccessible ledge and wail with her bow.  Most of the builds I dream about are just trying to perfect this swiss-army-knife get-by no-matter-what clever utilitarianess.

For me, the essential features for a stealthy type are HIPS (SD 1 is all I find useful in the current SD class, especially if you have Rogue), Sneak Attack (or maybe Death Attack as a sneak attack, I suppose, but I have no experience with it), Epic Dodge, SC5 if the cloak doesn't fit in for you (if I had space for 5 SC feats, I'd forego the cloak myself for my shadow-touched characters).  I'm also pretty fond of traps for softening or backup situations, and UMD for using scrolls and things.  So, Rogue and SD1 at the very least.  Although if one were to forego the Rogue, I'd take more SD classes for the evasive-type feats (although you have to have a first class that helps you qualify for the SD, hopefully at Level 8 ).

The other class is where the options are, the slot for the fighting class.  Personally I love the pairing of Ranger with the Rogue and SD, for dual-wielding, more trappiness, and a better BA.  Like Fighter but better for my style.  I took Warhulk semi-class to augment the AB.  But I have considered replacing the Ranger with Monk (and that would be less 'magical' than Ranger --although she seldom uses her ranger spells, really).  And Assassin has possibilty, but I'm not experienced enough with it to really say.  AA also appeals to me, but to keep versatility it would have to be a combo with Rogue or SD, and mage class required.

I've been playing a module recently with my ranger/rogue/sd, and just got an item with Whirlwind Attack on it.  I never could put together all the feats to have it before, but it really goes sweet for clearing out a circle of low-level enemies with ninja flourish.  I might have to see if I can fit it in somewhere....

Also, for the roguish class slot, I've wondered how much Bard might could replace the qualities of Rogue, but I haven't ventured to try it yet.  Although I don't have a lot of experience playing other classes, I actually have thought a great deal about what might be better than my favorite combo, but so far I haven't been convinced that any other classes would mesh as well.

Ranger would add some nice touches... trackless step and favored enemies (vs the player races) would fit well.  Not sure if it fits entirely though.  The duel-wielding bonus is redundant for drow, and trackless-step is nice, but wonder if it's worth the class choice.

bard.... I don't see it fitting into the concept at all.  The mechanics of the class are good, tumble, UMD, hide/move, discipline, but the archetype is anything but ninja-stealthy I think.  Bard's crave attention to some degree....

Assassin is very much like rogue.  Death attack is essentially sneak attack, but when the target is not "in combat", the first flurry of "death attack" can paralyze the target, scaling DC, duration at 1 turn per assassin level.  They get almost exactly the same class skills as rogues, hefty skill points.  No imp.evasion or defensive roll, so access to epic dodge/SC requires rogue/monk/sd/acrobat in various combos.  So yeah... slimmed down rogues, the slim down pays for the "death attack", and a couple spell-feats (ghostly visage, invis, imp invis).

And now that I think about it....

Acrobat.... seems rather suitable for a ninja style build.... hrmm...

Think of Ranger as the 'wilderness rogue with grudges', good in the city or in the country.  When I played my character more like an assassin, it fit just fine for me.  In fact, her mentor that RP caused her to take Ranger training, was an Assassin/Ranger build.

But oh yeah, Acrobat!  Sequence all the way to Whirlwind Attack!

MannyJabrielle wrote:Assassin is very much like rogue.  Death attack is essentially sneak attack, but when the target is not "in combat", the first flurry of "death attack" can paralyze the target, scaling DC, duration at 1 turn per assassin level.

That is why Assassin needs HiPS. Hiding puts enemies out of combat. So if you want Assassin (thinking how can I shorten it   ),you'd probably want to take at least 1 SD, leaving 1 base class to choose (I think between monk, rogue or .. bard? the rest can't qualify for SC and ED).

Added::
I also think that there are 3 types of prestige classes:
1. You need only the exact number of levels (like acrobat, harper scout etc)
2. You can take as many levels as yo want, each level have some improvements (palemaster, RDD, DD, ...most of prestige classes)
3. You NEED to take as many levels as possible (Arcane archer and Assassin), or don't take these classes at all.

I've seen a PW or two that give HIPS as an Assassin feat or bonus feat, and also I've seen HIPS as a Rogue bonus feat, selectable at or after L10.  It just makes sense to me, and if HIPS were available as a Rogue bonus feat, I'd never build my shadowdancer with NWN1's lame Shadowdancer class at all.

Heh, I hear a lot of people say that... I rather like the epic shadowlord though.  Even in a high magic setting like Aenea, it's pretty damn durable.  It's not gonna mow down epic baddies, but it sure tanks well enough.  The shadow evade/daze abilities are underpowered for Aenea certainly.  Shadow daze would even be pretty decent if it's duration weren't a fixed 5 rounds.

Are you going drow for the link to Aurora or the free TWF feats ?

I think a Shadowchild subrace fits the ninja-sneak into the shadows role better....
(( Would be even better if "that change" to the subrace constant concealment ever came about... .... ))

All your current build ideas focus around the Ass class... is there any reason for this, I've never played one and have no experience with the class...

I'm thinking of an elven shadowchild rgr/rog(or ass )/wm dex based finessed dual rapiers... .. skin colour can still be chosen and RP as drow if needed...

Will invisibility scrolls(UMD )/ unlimited custom item count against your item use restriction? If not, this could be a good way to go "HiPSing" without the need for SD to set up Sneaks/death attacks... .. Get a Panther Animal Companion and they're pretty good at going stealthy and helping set you up too.. when they last long enough... ...

More the link to Aurora than the TWF feats, though the TWF feats are a very nice bonus.

Another reason I focus around the assassin PrC is of my other evil pcs, I have a highly focused PM, and Alice will be a highly focused blackguard (once I get around to releveling her).... would be a nice touch for the 'evil team' to have a highly focused assassin to cinch up the 'evil' prestige classes.

Another reason is.... well ninjas *are* assassins.  I already have two rogue PCs of decent level (one 16, the other will be 29 rogue when hitting 40th).... and while assassin is almost identical to rogue, it is different enough where I wouldn't be 'doing the same thing' all over again.

I did consider shadowchild too, but I already have two of those as well.  Another reason I'm going to go drow is my only full drow right now is a sorceress, and would be fun to play the full up iconic drow assassin character, completely playing into the dex favored bonuses.

RustyDios wrote:All your current build ideas focus around the Ass class... is there any reason for this, I've never played one and have no experience with the class...  

It's obviously because of the great ASSets the ASSassin class offers which attracts Manny to it.   

Okay that one was bad... :V

Why yes, I am an ass-man.  Although that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a great set of legs as well

If you go rogue/monk/sd you could dual wield kamas for the attacks and use the kamas that look like punch daggers

Would give you hips from sd, 10 attacks from kamas with the inherent speed and the sneakiness from rogue

all 3 classes are 3/4 bab. In order to get 10apr you need at least one 4/4 bab class... and haste. I have one PC with 10 apr, she is monk/cleric of gort/wm. She is fun to play, but too straight because of strict requirements - at least 16 monk, 10 cler and 7 wm, leaving almost no options for epic feats from any of these classes. Personally I prefer more versatile pc to play

That's one advantage of having so many characters to play

I got a couple who are highly "versatile", but I got many who do one or two "things" really well, and everything else is soso or such.  It's more challenging when you play a character who can yes, dev crit the snot out of anything that moves, epic dodges, and can whip out a spell scroll for any situation.... But it'a also fun for me to play a character where I gotta find other ways around obstacles... 

So far I like the ranger idea thrown into the mix... although to really capitalize on the favored enemies bonus, I'd require a lot of ranger levels.  Rangers can be stealthy, no doubt, but I'm not looking for a second ranger character, but a sneaky assassin... so if I do use ranger... how much ranger, how much assassin, how much SD...

I like all of the ideas so far, all have fit the ninja theme very well in one aspect or another.

Yeah, you'd need 21-25 levels of Ranger to capitalize sufficiently on the Favored Enemies and Bane of Enemies route.

I briefly looked up the classes of Assassin and Shadowdancer, and came to the conclusion that if you don't use any Rogue in the build, you need to maximize your Assassin class enough for its Death Attack.  Assassin and SD fortunately only have the Uncanny Dodge series in common.

So I'd say, how about Assassin 30 / SD 10 ?  Start with Assassin, get your Dodge and Mobility, get your SD class going, then take Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack.

I'll throw in a basic "drow ninja" build for ya...


Rogue 39/Shadowdancer 1

Lvl 1-7: rogue
Lvl 8: shadowdancer (to get HiPS as early as possible)
Lvl 9-40: rogue



Elf/drow gives you shortsword/rapier proficiency, ambidexterity, two-weapon fighting, bonus dexterity, and spell resistance.

1 level of shadowdancer gets you hide in plain sight (for faking that "smoke pellet and he's gone" effect).

Rogue gives you everything else you need.  Acrobatic abilities (evasion, improved evasion), stealth (hide/move silently), ability to get into places (open lock, disable traps), versatility (use magic device), longevity (epic rogue feats like self concealment...you are starting with a possible 22 Dex if min/maxing) and a 20d6 sneak attack (or higher with improved sneak attack).

If you wanted more versatility, give up one d6 of sneak attack to take 1 level of fighter (for proficiency in all weapons (simple, martial, then use the fighter bonus feat for exotic weapons), access to all armors (for a disguise if needed), and 4 extra hitpoints).

Model your leather armor after the shadowhide raiment, add a head model with a face-concealing mask, color it all black, and you've got your ninja.

+1 yeah, Rogue rocks.  I might have to try a Rogue 39 / SD 1 sometime.

And when I had the Shadowhide Raiment, a very nice design btw, I colored it with the necro black to make it look totally light-absorbing.

Oh if I could take assassin from the start, I would, but it's a prestige class

MannyJabrielle wrote:Oh if I could take assassin from the start, I would, but it's a prestige class

Wouldn't we all? XD

Assassin/Shadowdancer would be epic!   

I can't remember how exactly a subrace bonus skill points work.. but a shadowchild (with the +10 hide/move silently) would allow you to take assassin as early as level 2 ?

Can someone check if this is possible ?

The other thing we're not considering is Aenea's cleric classes... especially a 10th level cleric of typhis which gets dodge, mobilty and whirlwind attack for free at 1st, 5th and 10th... just to throw another idea out there...

Yes, shadowchildren get their skill bonuses applied as straight boosts to their base ranks (which kinda sucks in the long run as you effectively lose that specific bonus, a maxed hide/ms shadowchild will have the same maxed hide/ms as anyone else).

Hm.... yeah, Xclass1, assassin 29, SD10 would rock.  I'd have to double check the assassin bonus epic feats list.... it's rather meager, but selfconcealment5 would eat up many of the bonus feats anyway.

Cleric.... hmm... doesn't seem to fit the ninja archetype to me.

MannyJabrielle wrote:
Hm.... yeah, Xclass1, assassin 29, SD10 would rock.  I'd have to double check the assassin bonus epic feats list.... it's rather meager, but selfconcealment5 would eat up many of the bonus feats anyway.

Cleric.... hmm... doesn't seem to fit the ninja archetype to me.

Maybe fighter to get weapon, armor and shield feats?

MannyJabrielle wrote:yeah, Xclass1, assassin 29, SD10 would rock.

Oops, yeah, that's what I really meant.  

If you went for a ranger as xclass1 you'd still end up with "ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting" effectively through the dual-wield feat providing you stayed in no/light armour and the class is going to be heavy dex based so that is more of a bonus.
You'd also end up with a favoured enemy (choose your own race for that assassin RP benefits maybe?)

And you'd have trackless step for help sneaking in a natural area (which I think the engine computes as any area flagged as "outdoors and aboveground" in the toolset)...

As a shadowchild you would start out with "20% concealment" upgrading to 50% as you mature.. as well as the constant "smoky-ghost-ninja moves so fast you can't see me" visual effect....

If you went for an elven race you'd still get the racial +2 dex boost to help towards SC.. Sleep Immunity, Hardiness vs Mind Affecting spells, Keen (ninja) senses and low-light vision....

OR you could go Fae for the same +2 dex, move silently affinity, fearless, good aim (+1 att bonus of thrown weapons, eg: shurikens) and the stealth benefits of small stature... then you could go brownie appearance too, and be a super-small hard to spot/see HiPSing stealth killing machine.... .... I'm liking this idea... ... Shadowchild Fae Rgr1/Ass29/SD1... ...