Beholders...and the upcoming recession...

With the hard economic times that have hit the U.S. and the rest of the world, there are going to be cutbacks even in Aenea.

The beholders, who have been carelessly wasting magic and greedily consuming the lives of adventurers, are soon going to find that their powers are going to be cut back. No rescue package for them.

Ok, I done joking...for now.

I am planning on re-scripting the beholders so that they are a little bit less "instantly" deadly. I'm going to be reassigning eye ray powers and hopefully working their strategies so that they "spread the wealth" when facing off against a group.

Eye Stalk Rays (after updating):
Flesh to Stone (petrification for 5 real minutes)
Disintegrate (death or damage)
Telekinesis (knockdown)
Slow
Wounding (raw magical damage, new)
Confusion (new)
Dominate Monster (new)
Magic Unraveling (reworked from central eye, strips all spells, adds 75% spell failure for 2 rounds, new)

Central Eye:
True Seeing, Darkvision

Removed:
Death Ray
Inflict Wounds
original Central Eye power

Behavior: The beholders will go back to targeting you with eye rays if you are petrified, if there are no non-stoned/non-dead enemies remaining in their range of vision.

What would dark vision do for them exactly? I've noticed for me as a player, it makes dark areas a tiny bit brighter.

Hrm,i like most of those changes ... a lot actually.

The only one I think might be unfair is the true seeing COMBINED with the Magic Unravelling.

The only way a caster can have a chance right now is to use invisibility to get a spell off before he gets spell failure. 75% isnt AS bad, but getting one spell off every 8 rounds is a death sentence for a caster. Especially becuase they wont be able to get a surprise spell off.

Mind you, I think that is a fair combo for the ELDER to use.

Just not the other ones.

Also, since you are getting rid of the death ray... and the disintegrate ray will now
be able to cause Death... I assume you did this because you dont want there to be any
way to avoid the "you rolled a 1, you die" situation?

Im not so big on that, personally, unless you are changing the encounters so that even
a 40th level character wont have to face more than 3 or maybe 4 of them at once.

Otherwise, it wont really change much. The wounding ray doing magical should
probably be doing negative energy instead, since its effectively an "inflict critical
wounds" spell.

Disintegrate has always been able to cause death, unless you make the save (and then it still causes some damage).

The magic unraveling will be a randomly fired eye ray, rather than a guaranteed-almost-every-round thing (like it currently is with the central eye). It also won't be as powerful, since I intend for it to check against each effect on you (yes, even petrification!) and a 75% chance to unmake that magic (rather than 100%) while it adds the spell failure.

The wounding one I'm changing away from the old "inflict spell" model of damaging...the raw magic will rip into even vampires if they get hit (and if it bypasses their Spell Resistance, if any).

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Disintegrate has always been able to cause death, unless you make the save (and then it still causes some damage).

Sure, and Im fine with that if it works like the disintegrate spell, and I can use spell mantles or specific spell immunity or school immunity against it. Its only fair that spell-like abilities work like spells, afterall.

Since there is no way to make the anti-magic work right, they still get away with pelting a PC with rays, even when the PC is striped of protectives and given spell failure.... so I dont think there should be a "save or die" ray that there is no defense against.... thats just garbage.... especially if you are forced to fight 5 or more at once.

The magic unraveling will be a randomly fired eye ray, rather than a guaranteed-almost-every-round thing (like it currently is with the central eye). It also won't be as powerful, since I intend for it to check against each effect on you (yes, even petrification!) and a 75% chance to unmake that magic (rather than 100%) while it adds the spell failure.

So, it can dispel pretrify. Thats a decent change. And there is a 25% chance that buffs wont get dispelled.
If there was a reason to use buffs in the first place, this might make them tactically advantageous, but there really isnt any reason to buff up beforehand... unless the magic unravelling check is caster level based.

The wounding one I'm changing away from the old "inflict spell" model of damaging...the raw magic will rip into even vampires if they get hit (and if it bypasses their Spell Resistance, if any).

If there is to be no resistance (other than maybe SR) against it, then I think the damage output should be reduced overall.

Or maybe how about there being a 75% chance that any rays will fail to take effect while the target has 75% spell failure.

Hrm...

depending on how you work the behavioral details... to be honest... I can see this actually making beholders MORE deadly.... but I guess we have to wait until you finalize it all...

I dont think Im going to be fighting beholders anymore, personally.
If the intent is to force players to take them on in groups, and make them unsoloable... ill just act like that area no longer exists.

Just because im obsessive about stuff, I have been thinking about this more.

It would seem that the changes would in the final tally end up with beholders "dispel/anti-magic" getting slightly nerfed, the "broken" death ray (that is ignoring immunities) would be basically renamed to a disintegrate ray, the current disintegrate ray would be removed, the "inflict critical wounds" ray would be renamed to explain it doing unblockable magic damage, and the beholders would gain true seeing and darkvision.

It strikes me that the only two things that were broken were the anti-magic, which you had asserted was not fixable... and the rays not working as actual "spell-like abilities" (hence ignoring defenses like immunities or spell mantles)

The anti-magic had definite room for improvement, and the death ray would have seemed to be an easy fix based on how quickly you resolved the immunity issue for Self-Sacrifice.

While I support the idea of balancing the anti-magic effect, as it is terribly unbalanced to have an automatic dispel combined with spell failure that does not ALSO immunize the target to magical attacks...

The ray changes offer little progress towards fixing the problems, and the addition of True Seeing is an overpowering increase in threat level.

All in all this would definitely seem to go against the grain of the stated intent of making them less instantly deadly.

Also, as you have stated that you strive for a "closer to pnp" feel to Aenea, and these changes are obviously a departure from that, I am very curious as to your reasoning for them.

Well, it is pretty easy to be ridiculously powerful in PnP for no reason, if that counts. (See also: pun pun, builds that can destroy the universe by level 4, making the world a phylactery, etc.)

It might also be good to hear from other players. I sincerely hope I am not alone in my assessments of the information thus far...

I have no opinion of this, honestly - you're the mechanical one! Personally, I've never met a beholder I haven't liked ...

Eric of Atrophy wrote:I have no opinion of this, honestly - you're the mechanical one! Personally, I've never met a beholder I haven't liked ...

You *like* beholders? Sheesh

I will admit, I pride myself on being good with mechanics in general, especially from
a balance perspective. Its something I get passionate about (as you all have seen).

DerusTal wrote: ...making the world a phylactery, etc.)

Doh! I laughed hard enough to attract the attention of other, more quiet, library patrons.

Like when Huxley was exposed to the idea of Natural Selection, I also felt "How extremely stupid [of me] not to have thought of that!". It's a no-brainer, but it has never crossed my mind (I thought of finding a way to use a Tarrasque as a phyllactery, but the Tarrasque lives on/in the world!).

I do have some ideas about the Beholders.

Currently, they beat me down right good, but I also don't think that I've yet been able to really bring my "A Game" to them.

I can get a couple of them before they get me (using hit-n-run tactics and lots of healing potions), but they still seem to have a 'instant-kill' in their arsenal that ignores my immunity to Death Magic gear (I think, unless they are able to do 600+ hp damage in seconds).

For what it's worth, though I never get to loot the bodies, it's one of my most satisfying moments when I put one of them down.

Full disclosure: Unlike you and others here, I don't have much experience with Beholders, as nasty as my experiences have been.

Legalese: The above is not to be taken as an endorsement or condemnation of any poster, game mechanic, or other involved party. By reading this statement, you release, remit, acquit and forever discharge any responsibility of SVair to either elaborate on or defend views expressed in this post.

Meh...but if you want my opinion, 7 Orc Destroyers rip through me faster than the Beholders do. We hates them so much, we does....

daveyeisley wrote:It would seem that the changes would in the final tally end up with beholders "dispel/anti-magic" getting slightly nerfed, the "broken" death ray (that is ignoring immunities) would be basically renamed to a disintegrate ray, the current disintegrate ray would be removed, the "inflict critical wounds" ray would be renamed to explain it doing unblockable magic damage, and the beholders would gain true seeing and darkvision.

The death ray is going to be removed, since I can't seem to get it to behave properly no matter how many little changes I make to it to make it take immunity to death magic into consideration. The disintegrate ray is basically staying the same. The "inflict critical wounds" ray will get a little bit more dangerous since it won't be like a specific spell and won't be (5d8+20) negative energy, but 6d6 raw magical damage. The beholders already have darkvision. The true seeing I'm adding, since the things are floating collections of magical eyes.

daveyeisley wrote:It strikes me that the only two things that were broken were the anti-magic, which you had asserted was not fixable... and the rays not working as actual "spell-like abilities" (hence ignoring defenses like immunities or spell mantles)

I was never able to get the anti-magic to work anywhere near as close to PnP as I want, so I'm "re-imagining" it as a power of one of the eyestalks that just gets fired at a single target instead of a constantly-used cone-shaped area, and it will not be a guaranteed "total-debuff". The rays not working as spell-like abilities I'll hopefully be able to address in my total re-scripting.

daveyeisley wrote:The anti-magic had definite room for improvement, and the death ray would have seemed to be an easy fix based on how quickly you resolved the immunity issue for Self-Sacrifice.

The problem with self sacrifice was just a matter of changing an EffectDeath to an EffectDamage to get the spell to do what it was supposed to do, rather than trying to figure out why something wasn't taking immunity to death magic into account.

daveyeisley wrote:While I support the idea of balancing the anti-magic effect, as it is terribly unbalanced to have an automatic dispel combined with spell failure that does not ALSO immunize the target to magical attacks...

That would be an omission in my post above. Sorry. The auto-dispel will have a 75% change per effect you have on you at the time, if you are hit with it (it will be a ray and require a ranged touch attack, instead of being automatic). It will also have a 75% change of sticking you with the 100% spell failure if it hits. The part I guess I omitted was that the spell failure comes with spell resistance (75% vs. beholder eye rays, not vs. anything else).

daveyeisley wrote:The ray changes offer little progress towards fixing the problems, and the addition of True Seeing is an overpowering increase in threat level.

So, what happens to true seeing if a beholder is blinded? And I didn't plan on mentioning this (was going to let it be a surprise in-game), but once a beholder get's below 66% health, guess what happens to the central eye?

daveyeisley wrote:Also, as you have stated that you strive for a "closer to pnp" feel to Aenea, and these changes are obviously a departure from that, I am very curious as to your reasoning for them.

There are times and situations where making the game a little less close to PnP makes the game a bit more enjoyable by making it (hopefully) less frustrating. I try for a "closer to PnP" feel, while still trying to keep it fun...hey, you don't lose levels from dying or getting "level drained" in this game, but you would in PnP.

Hi , just a quick question.

Will SR have the opportunity to negate the eye-ray? Either way, you don't have to answer that, I'm just curious.

Svair wrote:
Meh...but if you want my opinion, 7 Orc Destroyers rip through me faster than the Beholders do. We hates them so much, we does....

As far as the Orc Destroyers go... there is ample recourse in game to give you an edge against them. Think about maybe trying a cloak of displacement, and make sure you have invis potions and haste potions. I assume you already have damage reduction, but if not, or you want more of it, try dwarven soul potions, and maybe get some sturdy dwarven plate (for the dmg resistance which stacks with damage reduction and cannot be bypassed).

You will still end up using full heal potions, but the concealment from activating the cloak will increase the window within which you have to inflict damage before needing to heal youself. Pretty much, there are lots of ways to slow down their dmg output so you have more time to fight back, and dont have to sit there chain quaffing potions just to stay alive longer so they can beat on you more.

AC is always a good defense as well, use a shield, the expertise feat if you have it, gear that will make you harder to hit/crit, etc.

Im not sure how much of this you already use... but hopefully there is a thing or two that will help.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:

daveyeisley wrote:Also, as you have stated that you strive for a "closer to pnp" feel to Aenea, and these changes are obviously a departure from that, I am very curious as to your reasoning for them.

There are times and situations where making the game a little less close to PnP makes the game a bit more enjoyable by making it (hopefully) less frustrating. I try for a "closer to PnP" feel, while still trying to keep it fun...hey, you don't lose levels from dying or getting "level drained" in this game, but you would in PnP.

A good point. Sometimes its less about exactly what "the rules" say, and more about what works and works well.

I may be mistaken, but I believe True Seeing makes one immune to blindness. I have blinded the Elder (who has True Seeing), gone invisible, AND Ethereal (Greater Sanctuary), and he was still able to target me. It was ridiculous.

You state that the disintegrate ray will "basically" be staying the same. Does this mean it will stay the way it is currently, and will not automatically kill the target on a failed save (but still do a TRUCKLOAD of magical
damage)?

Reducing the damage output will help, but I would also like to say that I think the encounter spawns are a bit much currently. 8 beholders is just over the top, even at 40th level.

Lastly, as far the the "magic unravelling" eyestalk. If the roll for the 75% chance to inflict 100% spell failure is successful, I believe the target should gain 100% ray immunity. Its not balanced for a caster to have NO access to his spells and still be subject to even 25% of the rays. if the beolders want to shut off a casters magic, they should lose their own and be forced to melee until it wears off.

Hey, you forgot to read my Legalese...

As far as the Orc Destroyers go... there is ample recourse in game to give you an edge against them.

<shrug> A little of yes, and a little of no.

Think about maybe trying a cloak of displacement, and make sure you have invis potions and haste potions. I assume you already have damage reduction, but if not, or you want more of it, try dwarven soul potions, and maybe get some sturdy dwarven plate (for the dmg resistance which stacks with damage reduction and cannot be bypassed).

I have a Cloak of Displacement, can ignore the first 20 HP's worth a damage per hit, Haste, Invis, etc...I also slow them down for 1d3 rounds when they get within my Terrifying Rage's aura, and have other tactics as well (including using terrain advantages, opening volleys to soften them up, etc...)

Dwarven Plate is not an option unless I spend a Feat or multi-class...I enjoy playing the PC as-is, and am willing to accept that there might be some challenges beyond his current or maxed ability.

You will still end up using full heal potions, but the concealment from activating the cloak will increase the window within which you have to inflict damage before needing to heal youself. Pretty much, there are lots of ways to slow down their dmg output so you have more time to fight back, and dont have to sit there chain quaffing potions just to stay alive longer so they can beat on you more.

Heh...I was simply outrunning the bastards, letting my Regen. work while putting enough space between me and them to safely use potions.

AC is always a good defense as well, use a shield, the expertise feat if you have it, gear that will make you harder to hit/crit, etc.

Naturally, it's practically self-evident. I have the best gear that I have been able to find or buy. Regrettably, before I truly realized how important customized gear could be, I took and spent my Player Rewards on Level Ups (and promptly used them, even more foolishness on my part). I have another 70 hours to go before my next Player Reward....

Im not sure how much of this you already use... but hopefully there is a thing or two that will help.

Using the cloak of Displacement as cover to use a potion is sound tactical advice. I'll have to give it a try...and maybe find the semi-class I'm still looking around Aenea for.

Yet, to my mind, and dependent on the class/character type or even level, Orc Destroyers and Beholders are equivalent challenges in some respects as they can be overwhelming forces with the same end result. Dead is dead...

Svair wrote:Yet, to my mind, and dependent on the class/character type or even level, Orc Destroyers and Beholders are equivalent challenges in some respects as they can be overwhelming forces with the same end result. Dead is dead...

Never had as much trouble with the destroyers... they are bricks... but bricks have weaknesses that can be exploited. Aszhad didnt have any custom gear, but he could take them on and win at level 18. Admittedly, I think I did a decent job of powerbuilding with him, and I realize that you may not have wanted to do so with Phyllick ( i know full well you could have if you wanted to). But I still feel that there is more recourse for a PC facing off against the destroyers than against the beholders. At least against the destroyers you dont need freedom, knockdown immunity, mind effect immunity, and a way to remove petrification in order to even be able to heal yourself from thier damage in the first place.

The beholders only had 2 weaknesses, and gaining True Sight will remove both (I'm pretty sure).

daveyeisley wrote:

Svair wrote:Yet, to my mind, and dependent on the class/character type or even level, Orc Destroyers and Beholders are equivalent challenges in some respects as they can be overwhelming forces with the same end result. Dead is dead...

Never had as much trouble with the destroyers... they are bricks... but bricks have weaknesses that can be exploited. Aszhad didnt have any custom gear, but he could take them on and win at level 18. Admittedly, I think I did a decent job of powerbuilding with him, and I realize that you may not have wanted to do so with Phyllick ( i know full well you could have if you wanted to). But I still feel that there is more recourse for a PC facing off against the destroyers than against the beholders. At least against the destroyers you dont need freedom, knockdown immunity, mind effect immunity, and a way to remove petrification in order to even be able to heal yourself from thier damage in the first place.

The beholders only had 2 weaknesses, and gaining True Sight will remove both (I'm pretty sure).

Heh...few people trying to maximize a build takes "Mighty Rage", or use a Morningstar as their weapon of choice. Still, the PC is not puny, just vulnerable in several spots (which is ok by me).

I'm only talking about my experiences up to this point. And maybe I'm a bit (pretend) bitter because I used to walk through the Iron City without any comeuppance.

I'm not giving up on either challenge, and I'm still thinking about ways to deal with both. My next ideas is using those Exploding Casks in a suicide run (I should have more HPs than them, last dwarf/orc standing and all).

Morningstars are actually pretty good because they do two kinds of damage. (Of course, the list of "best" one handers is pretty obvious.)

DerusTal wrote:Morningstars are actually pretty good because they do two kinds of damage. (Of course, the list of "best" one handers is pretty obvious.)

Yeah, they're a decent weapon, I didn't mean to sound like I was knocking morningstars.

It looks like dual damage weapons got improved in V 1.69, something I didn't know. You can have Blunt Damage Immunity and still take the Morningstar's Piercing Damage and vice versa (if I'm reading the below link correctly - somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bludgeoning-piercing_damage

The part I dont like is: Given 8 opportunities to roll a one, I will do so 40 percent of the time. So, two out of five times, I die in the first round? And at some point, they will fire again so if I kill half before they fire again, one out of 5 times I die yet again. I think I will avoid beholders, the odds seem a bit steep to me.

How about this? For the disintegrate ray, give us a reflex save first. If we make that, we dodged it. Then give us a fortitude save for death or 20d6? At least, that would make the odds a bit better.

If the Disintegrate ray is going to cause instant death on a failed save, then I believe it needs to work just like the disintegrate spell. Ranged touch attack, spell resistance, spell or school immunities, spell mantles, and Fort save.

Ye, that would work Dave, just something so I don't face a death or trip to Macedone better than half the time. The ranged touch would drop it to half or so having a shot, so I only need to avoid rolling a 1 4 times, which is a vast improvement over 8!

Hmmm ... as a slight side note... with the big bee's getting all their eyes examined by the optician.. how about the little "familiar" ones?.. will they be having thier eyes overhauled too?

..curious minds and all that.. might make these little fellows more appealing...

You won't find familiars gaining anything. If you've noticed, the only changes I've made so far are a sneaky cat and even sneakier mouse, neither of which is much good at fighting.

In my opinion, the NWN familiars are too powerful. D&D familiars were never meant to be meat shields. I'm not limiting the already-existing ones, but they won't be getting any better.

Okay... was just wondering that's all ... I agree they do seem to be nothing more than flavour and meatshields... much like animal companions....

[bump]

Beholders are fearsome creatures. They can, in groups, do stupendous amounts of damage, inflict all sorts of conditions upon a PC (held down by telekinesis, make a PC go to sleep, etc...).

But most of that can be planned for. Hit and run tactics can be used, appropriate buffs help deal with some effects (I usually go into battle with +8 in Resistance gear, 1000+ HPs, etc...), and simple player experience with dealing with them (get out of their range if you lose 1/3 of your buffs and HPs because by the time your out of there, another 1/3+ will be gone).

But man oh man, I would rather deal with a "Harm" spell than a die roll of '1' vs their instant kill ray (despite having the appropriate effect immunity gear).

Those '1's get me every time, sometimes as soon as I show my face to them. I don't mind micro-managing my situation, expending thousands of GPs to stay alive, and so on, but please please please do something about that '1'.

I would choose Lysis as a deity in a heartbeat if I never rolled lower than a '2' on my saves.

Agreed, the saving-throw bonanza is what really makes them so hard to take on face-to-face, no matter what. The sheer number of saves being rolled every round means that rolling a 1 is inevitable in a relatively short amount of time. There are ways of hunting them without taking them head-on, which can be challenging and fun in it's own way, but it should be at least viable for a PC to take on a spawn without needing to be a select subrace with immunities and/or SR bonuses, or be a select class with access to the right supplies.

Heck, in PnP, against beholders.... as a Wizard you need to be really fricken powerful to stand a chance.... a melee character is actually better off due to their not relying on magic or spellcasting for their offense, and being WAY more durable... so a melee character can actually win thru at lower levels where a spellcaster cannot....

The way they work now, is just about dead on against spellcasters (except for the auto-dispel and death ray ignoring immunity), but those two points aside they are WAY too overpowered against melee characters. If you arent a race with inherent SR (and also about level 30+) you just cant survive in melee against them. If the death ray could be stopped by immunity, that would help some.... but the dmg they can dish out is still on the high end, in my opinion.

daveyeisley wrote:Heck, in PnP, against beholders.... as a Wizard you need to be really fricken powerful to stand a chance.... a melee character is actually better off due to their not relying on magic or spellcasting for their offense, and being WAY more durable... so a melee character can actually win thru at lower levels where a spellcaster cannot....

...

I know that NWN, and Aenea, are not PnP. That's ok, honestly, with me. :-)

But in PnP, Beholder's are anti-spellcaster creatures. They are meant (in my opinion) to put fear into those who cast spells. They strip them of all their magical defenses and munch them. They make spellcasters rely on their "meatsheilds" ( <--- I hate typing that word :-) ). Sort of like a bunch of beef'd up Rust Monsters but more dangerous and specific to a type of class of character.

But as I've said, when almost every monster only gives 4 xp a kill, it's a special type of thrill knowing that you could be killed because of an unlucky die roll and still prevailing for a short time. Having said that, I actually wouldn't mind staying alive long enough to loot a beholder I've killed.

I'm still trying other experiments to see how they do (I haven't yet tried an esplod'ng wall of casks) , but dagnabit, I'm reaching the limit of my, uhm, limited imagination on how to go about popping those gasbags. I'm not even trying to "grind" against them, just trying to see what is at the end of a specific Hanna Barbara castle....

On the XP part, beholders have a special bonus XP much like trolls for when you kill them. Al still gets something like 150XP or some such from a beholder mage at 40th level, and something like 10 or 15 XP from regular beholders.

To my knowledge, and I am trying to look this up but can't seem to find my blasted monster manual, Beholders are supposed to be limited to 3 rays per round in PnP.

I know they work that way in 3.5 for balance reasons, but 3.0 Im not sure on.

Svair wrote:...just trying to see what is at the end of a specific Hanna Barbara castle....

And you know what? I was building the third level of that place before the name hit me as being very similar to something from my childhood.

Greyskull Castle = Lair of a formerly bad-ass lich.
Castle Greyskull = Funky place in a (from my memory, at least) dumb 1980s cartoon.

LOL

daveyeisley wrote:To my knowledge, and I am trying to look this up but can't seem to find my blasted monster manual, Beholders are supposed to be limited to 3 rays per round in PnP.

I know they work that way in 3.5 for balance reasons, but 3.0 Im not sure on.

[

Old school, they had something like 11 rays that could shoot off at once. And I think they were greedy, but not necessarily evil. :-)

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
And you know what? I was building the third level of that place before the name hit me as being very similar to something from my childhood.

Greyskull Castle = Lair of a formerly bad-ass lich.
Castle Greyskull = Funky place in a (from my memory, at least) dumb 1980s cartoon.

I certainly wasn't knocking the name (but Chuck E.'s cheese's?), and I have fond memories of those times. I honestly was trying not to put in spoilers (people who had been there would have known where I meant).

Yeah, this game can't all be serious. Chuck got added one day when I was adding in different types of food items, and my older son had just been to that pizza place with the big mouse.

Hehe, at least I'm not the only one who made that connection....

I HAVE THE POWEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!!

Coincidence that a certain demi-class trainer is not to far away? Hrmmm....

MannyJabrielle wrote:

Coincidence that a certain demi-class trainer is not to far away? Hrmmm....

Ha! I didn't even think of that! Now there just needs to be a were-tiger wandering around in the area...

Svair wrote:

daveyeisley wrote:To my knowledge, and I am trying to look this up but can't seem to find my blasted monster manual, Beholders are supposed to be limited to 3 rays per round in PnP.

I know they work that way in 3.5 for balance reasons, but 3.0 Im not sure on.

[

Old school, they had something like 11 rays that could shoot off at once. And I think they were greedy, but not necessarily evil. :-)

ya, but Old School, they didnt have the advantage of Touch Attacks, so against a well equipped PC, they would miss a LOT more.