Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

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Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:37 am

So, apparently the Black Blade of Disaster spell is not applying the advertised enhancement bonus.

From NWNWiki:

The intended enhancement bonus based on ability modifier is blocked due
to a bug in the script (the weapon becomes unalterable before the
enhancement is applied). Instead, the blade has a +5 enhancement bonus
and a +15 attack bonus. (A fix for this is available on the Vault. (find it here)

Combined with the crappy AB of the invisible 'wielder' of the blade, +27 total AB, and only 2 attacks per round (so the BAB is less than 11)... it really makes the 'drawback' of the spell (not being able to to anything but walk or talk without risking the blade unsummoning) much worse... and the overall effectiveness mainly based around the 'invulnerable distraction' aspect of the spell, which by the spell description was not intended. It seems fairly obvious that the spell was meant to be a very nasty offensive summon (hence why you cant summon a blade and then proceed to spam other spells without risking the blade unsummoning).

The 'chance of breaking concentration' also seems to be very much fubared. Crideas with almost 90 concentration skill bonus (before adding the 1d20), seems to have a 50/50 shot of making the concentration check... if the DC of the check is almost 100, then I call shenanigans Razz More likely it is simply not taking the PCs concentration skill bonus properly into account.

Also, the AC of the 'wielder' is only 11. When the blade gets surrounded by enemies, it gets hit so much that the AI starts switching targets so much that the blade stops attacking altogether... effectively wasting precious rounds of the 1 round/level duration.

With the briefly mentioned overhaul of summon spells to make them count as 'henchmen' I more or less expect that the Black Blade spell will not be changed. As much as it would be funny to have an army of black blade's fighting for you... the concentration check would ruin this in many cases, and mechanically speaking, in PnP a caster is only able to concentrate on a maximum of two spell effects per round (concentration counting as a move action).

What I would like to see, if a caster can only have one blade at a time, is for the creature wielding the blade to have a BAB of at least 16 before strength (so it will have 4 attacks per round, fitting for a 9th level spell, but more preferable - a BAB equal to caster's caster level - max 30), the proper enhancement added to the blade (possibly using some code borrowed from the 'fix' linked above), the AC of the 'wielder' raised by a large amount - something like AC 50- so that it wont get hit so much and lose rounds of attacks (its invulnerable anyhow, so it doesnt matter if enemies hit it or not, except maybe for things like bigby spells, which will still hit AC 50 reliably), and the concentration check to have a reasonable, static DC and to take the casters full concentration bonus into account.


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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:55 pm

I'm making some changes right now to this spell for the next planned reset.

changed:
- higher potential attack bonuses (adds caster level to attack bonus on creature and Int/Cha modifier to the blade's attack bonus, more likely to hit successfully at higher levels),
- lower standard damage (no longer has Str/enhancement bonus or weapon specialization),
- better ability to cut through damage reduction via attack bonus property (+1 per Int/Cha modifier up to +20, with a minimum of +5)
- increased "holder" AC to 30
- planar rift changes to raw magical damage (9999 points) instead of a death effect (ability to "destroy" targets immune to death magic)
- altered black blade appearance
- blade holder immune to beholder dispelling and "construct paralyzation" (dispelling may apply to caster's concentration if in cone area, not sure since I couldn't find where in the game or scripts concentration is checked)

unchanged:
- number of attacks (2/round)
- Fortitude save DC against on hit "planar rift" effect (still 16)
- spell resistance (still factored into planar rift effect)



Attack Bonus:
+6/+1 (base, 2 attacks/round)
+ 1 per Int/Cha modifier (up to +20 on the blade)
+ 1 per caster level (up to +40 on the "creature")
= +26/+21 (17th level wizard, 17 Int) to +66/+61 (40th level caster, 50 Int/Cha)

Damage:
2d6 + 1d12 (17-20/x2) (extra melee damage types bludgeoning and piercing)

Planar Rift: on hit, target must make a DC 16 Fortitude save or (most likely) die from massive damage (spell resistance applies)

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:21 pm

I like these changes... just three comments....

First - Why just 40 AC? Since it should be invincible anyway, why not make it entirely untouchable to prevent such AI issues.

Second - Can we give the thing Immunity to Knockdown and Freedom if it doesn't yet have it?

Third - Can we add half of your casting stat modifier that goes towards AB as damage? Essentially it's at most 10 extra damage a swing and that makes it do a little more than hope for the enemy to roll a 1.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:19 pm

Me is happy happy Smile

Only thing I want is, as kitten said, to have higher AC. 50 or so would be much better. 30 will still get hammered by some of the moderate baddies. The stats of the wielder and blade don't matter if the AI goes into target-switching convulsions and doesn't attack.

It doesnt need immunities, as it is totally invulnerable (which gives it all immunities by default).

I don't much care about the extra STR damage, but I do think casting stat should add some damage. Not a dealbreaker, though... the AC is much more important.
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Black Blade of Disaster

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:21 am

My Black Blade's character sheet lists an AB of 53, yet it's swinging with a 26 AB in the combat logs....
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by __Ua__ on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:51 am

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Black_blade_of_disaster
pretty sure the bug mentioned in this article is the reason.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:44 pm

The Amethyst Dragon had modified the spell, hence why I'm reporting it.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:16 am

Not quite working properly yet

Character sheet is lying like a rug!

Also this thread can be combined with this thread.

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:24 am

Not quite working properly yet

Character sheet is lying like a rug!

Also this thread can be combined with this thread.

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:32 am

The AC being 30 is having little effect on the target switching, no attacking problem... It would be nice if we could bump that up to 50, and also kick the DC on the save up from 16... for a 9th level spell, the base DC ought to be 19 + INT modifer, after all.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:37 am

*ahem* 19+ INT/CHA modifier....
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:21 am

Wow.... my bad kitten....

Allow me to rephrase:

'The DC ought to be 10 + spell level + casting ability modifier.'

Hopefully you wont take exception to that one?
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm just messin' with ya, Dave


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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:12 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:I'm just meesin' with ya, Dave

And here I thought you were messing with me Razz
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by evilkittenofdoom on Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:00 am

What ever do you mean? I see nothing of the sort
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by Eric of Atrophy on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:28 pm

I hate those meeses to pieces!
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:56 am

Just a minor suggestion off this (not to detract from Dave's subsequent bug report on the spell....)

Could the changes to the spell be added to the spell description? I was actually digging for quite a while through the forums to find this post... didn't think to look in the bug reports section for it though!
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:04 am

Change to spell description would be great.

Also, the bug with adding the proper attack bonus is still not fixed... the character sheet says +66/+61 for Crid's blade.... but the combat log shows +28/+23 Sad

Mayhaps it would be good to check out that "fix from the vault"?

The blade holders ac should get a bump up to 50 or so... its invulnerable, so it wont affect anything other than the target switching silliness.

The DC on the fort save is supposed to be equal to the DC of a 9th level spell using the casters stat mod... ie: 19+modifier+feats.

The spell is close to being a real 9th level spell... but that attack bonus issue and the save DC are relegating it to "invulnerable distraction" status, which is fairly useless because the caster cant do anything while the blade is summoned or it will unsummon Sad
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Black Blade of Disaster (AB and Concentration checks)

Post by MannyJabrielle on Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 pm

I love that the Blackblades are *supposed* to get better AB with caster levels, but while they report on the blade's character sheet that they've got +XX/+XX-5 AB for it's attacks... it's using only half that as reported by the combat log (Example, Aurora's BBoD has something like +50/+45 or whatever, but in the combat log, it's only getting +24/+19 or such... numbers are off, but it's a HUGE difference).

If that lil mess up could be fixed, that'd make BBoD's great.

And another aspect... the concentration check (And this is partially a suggestion as well)

I dug through the default bioware code for the spell, and it's not a real concentration *check*. Im not sure if it was changed for the rescripted version in Aenea, but if not... the code (which can be found in the x2_inc_spellhook script) checks for events and flat breaks the spell if those events fire off (The events are spell casting, attacking, trap flagging, disarming, pickpocketing, counter spelling, and itemspell casting (which includes potion usage since they are technically an item with a spell use on it).

SO.... why not change that bit of code to an actual concentration check? It simply makes sense that a caster with 43 base concentration+modifer would be able to multitask with a bit more ease than say a level 17 caster with 20 base concetration+modifer.

This can also open up the possibility for "sustained spells", which is picked up more in the suggestions thread under the debuffing spells suggestion.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:14 pm

Amen. Real concentration check, please...

Oh and this thread can probably be merged with this thread.
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:07 am

Working on this spell again tonight and tomorrow. Reworking blade "creature" and "weapon" stats. Going to adjust the scripting for applying attack bonuses.

I'm now thinking that the problem is the combat engine might not be stacking attack bonus on the "weapon" with the attack bonus on the "creature", but the character sheet is showing it anyway. If that turns out to be the case, the sword's base damage will be changed with an increase in the enhancement bonus, with the attack increase effect on the "creature".

Once I get the changes in tomorrow and test them out, I'll update the spell description with the proper information

Oh, and yes, I'm increasing it's AC to 50.

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:17 am

Woot The Amethyst Dragon! cheers
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:41 pm

I think I've finally nailed down attack bonus issues. Smile Did some testing with one of my spellcasters and the attack bonus was showing up correctly in both the character sheet screen and the combat info window.
cheers

The character sheet does show 4 attacks/round, but it's actually 2/round since I'm using a script to cap it at the number a high level spellcaster could get at 20th level (and no, I'm not considering what a multiclass sorcerer or wizard could have...I'm only considering pure spellcaster levels).

Current Black Blade of Disaster Mechanics:
attack bonus: +30/+25 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + attack bonus increase + enhancement bonus
damage: 2d6 + 6 (Str) + enhancement bonus
critical: 17-20/x2 (+1d12 massive critical damage)
on-hit planar rift (DC 16)

- - attack bonus increase
effect (+1 per 2 caster levels after 20th, max. + 10) on "invisible wielder"
- - enhancement bonus item property (+1 per casting ability modifier (min. +5, max. +20) on "blade"

Minimum (level 17 wizard, 17-21 Int):
attack bonus: +39/+34
damage: 2d6 + 6 (Str) + 5 (enhancement)

Maximum (level 40 sor/wiz, 50 Int/Cha):
attack bonus: +64/+59
damage: 2d6 + 6 (Str) + 20 (enhancement)

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:10 pm

Oh please, let this work as advertised!
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:06 pm

daveyeisley wrote:Oh please, let this work as advertised!
I hope so. Smile

The changes I mentioned have been online since late last night so I could test them. You could have Crideas give them a quick shot if you like...he's probably got both a higher caster level and Int than Madara so could possibly max out both the attack roll increase and the enhancement bonus to try to hit the intended +64/+59 to attack (she's 30th level and has a 40 Int so her's comes in at +54/+49).

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by daveyeisley on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:14 pm

So close!

The AB is reporting correctly on the character sheet as usual.

The combat log is showing the blade is only using the last two AB bonuses, not the first two. So while Crid's blade should have been getting +64 and +59.... he was only getting +54 and +49.

Against a golem, the planar rift effect did not seem to be firing off. No save, no feedback. Used to work fine on constructs/undead.... so something must have changed regarding creature types.

Planar Rift worked fine on orcs.

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Thanks for checking.

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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

Post by Angel of Death on Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Saw a Orc Shaman in Tesh summon one of these Blades; while it appeared to function perfectly fine as the Blade chased after me immediately, I could shoot it down wiht ease. . .aka kill a Blade which is supposed to be indestructible. Razz

The Blade need to be set to Immortal. Smile
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Re: Black Blade of Disaster (merged threads)

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