The Character Build Discussion Thread

[daveyeisley]

So this is probably going to be a powergamer/twink thread. Don't post here if
you value your reputation as a non-powerbuilder or a non-twink!

Just kiddin

The idea is for the experienced players to share some of that experience
with character builds and how they grow, and how effective they
are in Aenea to sort of aid the newer players in figuring out
what works and what might not work.

Also, for the newer players to bring in fresh ideas and new
perspective on what may seem like established standards
in character building.

The discussion won't be of interest to everyone, and that
is totally understandable. For those who enjoy rolling up
their sleeves and getting into the nuts and bolts of
character builds and mechanics, it should be a lot
of fun

A few requests I would like to make before starting the thread up:

1. We have suggestion boards to handle any potential alterations
to existing mechanics. If you think something should be changed
for any reason, please post there about it. We don't want to bog
this thread down with such debates.

2. Please don't post builds that rely on "exploits" or that
somehow involve circumventing the existing balance
mechanics.

3. Try to be constructive in your contributions here.
If you disagree with a theory or statement someone has made,
simply state that you think it might be possible to improve
upon, and why. Many such situations will come down
to player preference and play-style, so if we all try
to simply assist and one another and remain positive
and focus on the goal of making better builds, this
should be a very educational and enlightening
discussion

[daveyeisley]

For my first post here....

I have been researching and experimenting with builds lately trying
to get myself "inspired". When I get "inspired" about a build, nothing
gives me greater joy than working to level it up and test it out as it grows.

I havent been very successful for the last two weeks.

The one mechanic that I have been trying to work
into a build that has me at least somewhat intrigued,
is the Monk class ability to have more than 4 attacks
per round with certain attack forms.

It seems to me that dual wielding Kamas is the only
way to actually maximize that feature.. and if
you don't want to use Kamas, you are either going
unarmed, or you are out of luck completely.

Going unarmed means you are missing out
on the two extra "offhand" attacks. Which
might be OK, except that to have any
real *beef* on your strikes you must
then reserve your hand slot for gloves
with enhancement and damage bonuses.
Thats not a deal breaker either, but I
can't seem to escape the sense that it is
not optimal.

I am curious if anybody has found any
other weapon besides Kama that allow
a monk to wield a weapon while still
getting the extra monk attacks. It
doesn't have to involve dual wield,
but for instance I have discovered that
the quarterstaff, club and dagger
don't work.


I like the idea of fighter/monk/weaponmaster,
but I want the weapon of choice to be
a bit more exciting than a Kama, and still
get those extra whacks in.

Probably not gonna find one, but hey.

[Ra Cha Chongo]

Unless has made some sort of alteration (possible, but I don't think so), kamas are going to be the only weapon viable for the kind of Ftr/ Mnk/ WM build you're describing. The dukes don't count as weapons as far as WM is concerned, and other monk weapons like sais and nunchaku weren't a part of the original NWN coding so they don't even seem to qualify for things like Weapon Finesse or the spell Magic Weapon let alone special monk-y stuff. The quarterstaff, too, is broken in stock NWN as it is listed under "Double-Sided" but only ever operates as a blunt polearm.

If you're willing to give up your potential 9 attacks per round (10 if you're hasted), my recommendation is to skip WM and try out a Str-built monk, with Dev Crit. on your fists. You might not have the highest number of attacks, but they'd be above average and they'd all be Jim Kirk haymakers

[MannyJabrielle]

Which attack forms do you mean specifically? Flurry of blows? Kamas are the only monk speciality weapons that will work with flurry or for getting the monk UBAB.

While it's not as reliable as the kama method for getting as many as 10 APR, circle kick works in conjunction with cleave (and great cleave) for adding another attack, although this works only against two or more opponents. An unarmed monk15/fighter5 will have 6 attacks, plus 1 from flurry, plus 1 from haste, and a circle kick attack vs multiple opponents. Add in cleave/great cleave attacks for rounds with a kill in them. 9 APR vs multiples, 10 vs multiples when one bits the dust.

[daveyeisley]

Unless has made some sort of alteration (possible, but I don't think so), kamas are going to be the only weapon viable for the kind of Ftr/ Mnk/ WM build you're describing. The dukes don't count as weapons as far as WM is concerned, and other monk weapons like sais and nunchaku weren't a part of the original NWN coding so they don't even seem to qualify for things like Weapon Finesse or the spell Magic Weapon let alone special monk-y stuff. The quarterstaff, too, is broken in stock NWN as it is listed under "Double-Sided" but only ever operates as a blunt polearm.

If you're willing to give up your potential 9 attacks per round (10 if you're hasted), my recommendation is to skip WM and try out a Str-built monk, with Dev Crit. on your fists. You might not have the highest number of attacks, but they'd be above average and they'd all be Jim Kirk haymakers

ROFL Jim Kirk Haymakers!!!!

How have I never heard that before? Thats awesome

Yeah it seems youre right. Kama is the only way to go.
You can still do a str based monk with WM and kamas.
The attack bonus ends up higher, and you can still do
dev crit. Rayven did that build and its *disgusting* on
offense. I call him the "chainsaw" lol.

I think I may have to just stick with a defensive build
with fighter/monk/shadowdancer going for high dex,
high AC, and epic dodge.

[Grey_Stooge]

WOW Dave, you decided to go with a build like mine. I have a defensive build going with Bram. Epic Dodge is good.

[daveyeisley]

Yeah Im going for the dex focused monk, trying to balance in some wisdom as a secondary stat, and as much strength as i can manage as tertiary.

The monk/shadowdancer combo dovetails nicely into epic dodge, cuz you can meet that defensive roll requirement a bit earlier than if you go rogue. Missing out on the skill points and sneak attacks isnt so bad.

The fighter part is the real beauty, cuz if you focus fighter at least 12 levels of it before level 20, and hold off on shadow dancer till after 20, you end up with a seriously good BAB, the monk attacks and nice class abilities, epic dode, and can still fit in 20 monk levels for perfect self. A 13th level of fighter after level 20 (and after you have epic weapon focus) will even allow for that beautiful +4 dmg from epic weapon spec... makes up a good bit for not being totally strength focused.

[inthecorridors]

I seek wisdom from those with more of it than I around builds.

Miow: I recently created Miow, or really, recreated Miow, as she was a character from another server that imploded. She went thru multiple incarnations even there, but mostly rogue/SD combos. (The PnP combos she's had, let's just say they're completely impossible in NWN lol) I'm thinking to make her a fairly classic 39 rogue/1 SD, going for Epic Dodge, all the self-conceals, crippling strike, maxed out hide/ms and focus the custom items on that as well. All incarnations of Miow have been super sneakylike. I've been toying with a R/SD/wizzy combo though, especially since Aenea has oodles of custom wizard stuff. Miow's always been obsessed with magic. But how much wizard and what would she do with it? Hmm. R/SD seems so BORING but I can't decide what else to do for this already very established imported character XD

Helga. Aenea specific build musings- I had intended her to be pure cleric of Ralth, being specifically a craftsdwarf, but I'm not sure I want to do that now. Clerics of Ralth don't get all that many granted spells, and a lot of the upper level standard cleric spells (the "good" ones) seem to be either Ragnor or Asis only, and there are no major custom spells Ralthites get. The only thing keeping me considering keeping her pure cleric is the vague "It is rumored that priests of Ralth can even forge items with magical properties beyond what even some wizards can create." I don't know if I'm curious enough to grind her up to 40th or wherever in hopes of discovering what the source of this rumor might be, possibly only to discover I don't find it that exciting? Anybody at all know what the source of this rumor is, even if they don't wanna tell me exactly cos it's secret?
And if I don't stay pure cleric, what the heck do I mix her with, after I initially emphasized wisdom so much at creation and for 13 levels? Hrm.

[daveyeisley]

I seek wisdom from those with more of it than I around builds.

Miow: I recently created Miow, or really, recreated Miow, as she was a character from another server that imploded. She went thru multiple incarnations even there, but mostly rogue/SD combos. (The PnP combos she's had, let's just say they're completely impossible in NWN lol) I'm thinking to make her a fairly classic 39 rogue/1 SD, going for Epic Dodge, all the self-conceals, crippling strike, maxed out hide/ms and focus the custom items on that as well. All incarnations of Miow have been super sneakylike. I've been toying with a R/SD/wizzy combo though, especially since Aenea has oodles of custom wizard stuff. Miow's always been obsessed with magic. But how much wizard and what would she do with it? Hmm. R/SD seems so BORING but I can't decide what else to do for this already very established imported character XD

well, the big thing for wizard/sorcerors, if you want your offensive spells to be worthwhile is to get good casting stat, and caster levels. With a R/SD/WIZ combo.... you are probably better off investing enough to get some good buffs and utility spells, but avoid trying to focus on offensive magic as your save DCs probably wont be great due to low cast stat, nor will your damage dice due to low caster level.

My advice, figure out how much you can sacrifice to boost your INT up. Find where your
"INT ceiling" is, ie- the point where raising it further will nerf other stats beyond what
you are willing to accept. At this point, you can establish the highest level if wizard spells
you will be able to learn and cast. From there, you can determine how many wizard
levels you need to invest to make use of that.

For instance, lets say you can't accept raising INT higher than 14 because it
will force you to gimp str or con. Now, you know that 4th level spells is your
ceiling. So, you want to get 7 wizard levels so you can cast 4th level spells.
Then just be sure to learn the best buffs spells in those levels, and work
out your spell slots for the best balance of duration versus power gain.

Hope that helps.

Helga. Aenea specific build musings- I had intended her to be pure cleric of Ralth, being specifically a craftsdwarf, but I'm not sure I want to do that now. Clerics of Ralth don't get all that many granted spells, and a lot of the upper level standard cleric spells (the "good" ones) seem to be either Ragnor or Asis only, and there are no major custom spells Ralthites get. The only thing keeping me considering keeping her pure cleric is the vague "It is rumored that priests of Ralth can even forge items with magical properties beyond what even some wizards can create." I don't know if I'm curious enough to grind her up to 40th or wherever in hopes of discovering what the source of this rumor might be, possibly only to discover I don't find it that exciting? Anybody at all know what the source of this rumor is, even if they don't wanna tell me exactly cos it's secret?
And if I don't stay pure cleric, what the heck do I mix her with, after I initially emphasized wisdom so much at creation and for 13 levels? Hrm.

Hrm... thats a tough one. To my knowledge, no one has ever done it... leveld a cleric of ralth to level 40.
Knowing , there may *indeed* be some secret hidden benefit that he doesn't advertise. Still, if you
slog through to 40, its possible you may find that benefit underwhelming, that is a risk you take.
My best advice is, either PM him asking for some hint/clarification, or simply think carefully whether
or not you will be able to enjoy levelling the character to 40th with your current build. If you won't
be able to enjoy it, don't do it.

If you can, you will have a server first achievement, and who knows, maybe there is something to
make it super sweet You can always save that set of re-level scales if it turns out you
end up unhappy with it.

[MannyJabrielle]

With the rogue/sd/wiz, there's also the consideration of UMD. 1 level of wizard would allow use of scrolls and wands and such as well without a skillpoint investment (although limited to just wizard/sorc stuff, while UMD would let you take advantage of cleric/paladin/ranger/druid scrolls/items as well. If you're aiming for epic dodge and self concealment V, that's a very healthy DEX investment, even with tomes. You could get a very good number in intelligence as well, but as Dave mentioned, you're looking at dividing a character between to rather distinct skillsets, and offensive wizardry tends to require a great deal of focus. SD 10 or Rogue 13 would be required for epic dodge, and skill dumps for the hide/tumble reqs on ED/Self Concealment... That still leaves room for 30 to 27 wizard levels, which can still be very potent.

[inthecorridors]

*considers* This incarnation of Miow is a bright gnome, not a halfling (kender) like the original. So while she started slightly lower on Dex than the original, she does have a rawther high int (wooooo, skill points!) So, really, she pretty easily could max out UMD, or if she finds a one point better tome than the one she already got her hands on, cast ALL the spells. I think her favorites would be the stuff like magehound, teleport, summon ally, transference, teleportation capture... Decisions, decisions! I'm going to have to sit down with a couple of Ra Cha Chongo's handy NWN character build planning sheets on this to find the perfect balance of sneak attacking and reasonable DCs of spells that she'll want.


...after finals week XD


Re: Helga... I'll have to try the PM thing, because I've seen at least one post from where he refused to say just what the crafting even better stuff thing means on the forum. I like surprises and all, like not going "Semi-class trainers are here, here, here" but I'm not loving this sort of thing being a secret
Helga's definitely gonna need re-level scales if she's not staying 100% cleric because a lot of things you might think a cleric would mix will well won't work for her cos CHA and DEX are pitiful for her.

[inthecorridors]

Ok, so I sat down and worked Miow out, because the kitty just went in to have an operation and I am that nervous, jittery cat parent and wasn't getting anything done anyway. XP

Most of what Miow would want to use works no different on scrolls-- the teleport related magics-- so I gave up trying to make it work and went with the r/sd classic. All 5 SC's, epic dodge, crip strike, lots of great dex, 2 weapon kukri fighter, 20d6 sneak, enough skill points falling out of every orifice to max out anything I could possibly want to XD

[Ra Cha Chongo]

So, I'm looking to make a bard. Apart from the specific intent of going after Master of the Menagerie, I'm probably going for 40 levels of barb, the whole bard, and nothing but the bard. That said, I don't think I've ever made a bard in NWN (and only one or two in PnP D&D), not to mention all the bardly Aenean stuff that's new to me. Any "can't miss" feats and abilities I should be on the lookout for? Also, is there a place anywhere that lists whatever pre-reqs there may be for the new songs?

[daveyeisley]

The new songs are all available at level 1. They just need perform and bard levels to scale up to improved effects.

My advice would be to read the effects in the player build module on a test character. Read them thoroughly and make tough choices about which song you really want, and which songs you can live without. You can get all of them, but much like any other class, you will miss out on other neat stuff by doing so.

I highly recommend lingering song, and eventually the epic Lasting Inspiration feat. They make each song last much longer. Lasting inspiration is a double edged sword though... it makes the songs last so much longer, you have to be very careful that you dont sing a song that you will need to end quickly... as there is currently no way to cancel a song in progress. I believe is working on a fix for that.
So the feat is very good, but requires forethought. You need to be 21st level and have 25 ranks in perform.

Other than that, I recommend quaking chorus and mundane melody as two of the best songs when you are soloing, depending on whether you are up against melee or spellcasters. When in a party, soothing refrain, regular bard song, or curse song can be awesome.

The fire and ice songs are nasty as well, but somewhat situational.

Spell selection is key as well, cuz you dont get all that many. Wounding whispers is a *must* have. Ice Storm is going to be your primary nuke spell. Haste and stat buff spells are also excellent. Summon spells can help early on, but you will want to replace them at higher levels.

Also, dont ignore your melee capabilities... focus on the perform and charisma, of course... but STR and melee feats are a needed fallback when you are out of songs/magic or up against something resistant to them. Alternatively, if you can spare the feat, grab weapon finesse and focus on DEX instead of STR, so you will have better AC.

Gear selection is also critical. ChA is primary focus, so you will want a cloak +6 and an ioun stone. Then either a certain set of special armor to max out at +12, or perhaps invest custom items for it, your call.

Any feats you can spare, I recommend popping into things like weapon focus, and either power attack/cleave or dodge/expertise depending on the flavor you want.

[daveyeisley]

So Im thinking about a new monk build.

Im thinking pure 40 monk.

And every feat after 20th level would be Improved Spell Resistance, with the exception of one, which would be Epic Skill Focus (parry).

With skill focus (parry), improved parry, and epic skill focus (parry) as well as 43 ranks in parry, youre looking at a 60 base without considering dex mod. Good dex mod is gonna be 15 or so.. that gets us up to 75. Two custom items with +10 parry, and we are looking at 95 base. Just about *anything* that takes a swipe at you is going to draw a counterattack on anything less than a natural 20 (provided you arent surrounded taking more than 5 incoming attacks per round).
Plus, your AC will also be pretty darn good, and with weapon finesse, so will your Attack bonus.

And with 40 monk levels and imp. spell resist 10, you are looking at an SR of 70. Get Immunity to abjuration (or even just mord's), and *nobody* is lowering your SR (at least no way of doing so is coming to mind). So even a pure caster with epic spell penetration needs a 20 to make you roll a save... and even if they get a greater spell breach in, that caster has a 46 base to penetrate, and you will have an effective 65 SR... meaning they need a 19....

With parry mode active and 70 SR.... this build seems to be nearly impervious to attack... unless you overwhelm it. The only epic spell that is a real threat is Greater ruin... hellball gets improved evasion...


It really seems like the main damage concerns would be positive energy from Greater Ruin, and acid from Acid Sheathe. A few custom items to cover those bases... and youve got one nasty customer.

Sure, the offense isnt staggeringly impressive... but a medium sized monk with +5 gloves is doing 7-25 per strike even without a STR bonus, I believe... and there is always the option to get custom gloves with some nice alternative damage types.

I think the main overall combat weaknesses are to multiple attackers (you can only parry as many attacks per round as you gave attacks per round yourself without haste or flurry), and a not exceptionally high attack bonus.

What do you other powerbuilders think?

[Ra Cha Chongo]

Not having played around with parry myself, I don't speak from experience, but as per nwnwiki.com:

"Unfortunately, this skill was reduced from its original (pre-release)
state and is considerably less effective than it may sound. Parry can
only deflect the first attack in each of the three flurries
in a round (for example, parrying an opponent with 5 attacks per round
will only attempt to block the first, third, and fifth attacks).
Furthermore, counterattacks (also called ripostes)
are included in the number of attacks that may be deflected (for
example, a deflection and riposte use two of the three attacks per
round limit)."

So you may still have some holes in you melee defense. I dig the impossible spell resistance though, that sounds pretty fun

[daveyeisley]

Not having played around with parry myself, I don't speak from experience, but as per nwnwiki.com:

"Unfortunately, this skill was reduced from its original (pre-release)
state and is considerably less effective than it may sound. Parry can
only deflect the first attack in each of the three flurries
in a round (for example, parrying an opponent with 5 attacks per round
will only attempt to block the first, third, and fifth attacks).
Furthermore, counterattacks (also called ripostes)
are included in the number of attacks that may be deflected (for
example, a deflection and riposte use two of the three attacks per
round limit)."

So you may still have some holes in you melee defense. I dig the impossible spell resistance though, that sounds pretty fun

Wow... i wish that was wrong.... cuz it sucks... but thanks for posting it. So, parry is as useless as I originally thought it was. AC and flurry of blows/imp expertise it is, then.... that frees up some pre-epic feats, too. Crappy thing with relying on combat modes is you have to stand still anyways or they shut off.... i dont mind an offensive mode shutting off on me... but defensive ones suck to lose that way, especially when you get socked a few times for it. OnHit shield and armor properties cause this problem, too.

Gonna tweak around with some fighter levels in there too... ya only really need 66 SR if you have mord's immunity, cux that caster with the 46 to penetrate needs a 20 to hit 66.

[Svair]

...Crappy thing with relying on combat modes is you have to stand still anyways or they shut off....

Any crappy thing I noticed is that you can't use two at a time. For example, I can't Power Attack while in my Defensive Stance. Which ever one activates turns off the other.

[daveyeisley]

Meh looks like I was misremembering about Mord's immunity.... nothing stops the SR lowering effect. So, you need the full 70 SR pretty much. Makes the options a lot more narrow

[Anthroplayer]

If your goal is to raise levels quickly and make a powerful character while dual-classing, than this info will help.

Druid/Wizards(shamans) as well as Cleric/Wizards(adepts) don't appear to be very effective in gaining lots of exp in the long run unless you have them both on or near the same level, which removes exp penalty. But, in any case, these characters, especially druid/wizards, are much weaker than normal characters, facing both downsides for their classes but with little upsides.

Combining Paladin/Ranger(crusader), or Cleric/Ranger(avenger) produces a much more efficient dualclass, far more suitable for melee combat, and in the case of Cleric/Rangers, both melee and spellcasting. Like always, exp penalty for having classes 2 or more levels away from eachother count towards an exp penalty, but when much gets many advantages in combat, you can fight more, longer, and faster, making up lost exp.

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