Not Used: Spell Saving Throws (And other balance/usefulness suggestions)

I've noticed that many spells of the same damage tier and spell level use the same saving throw for the same amount of damage or are unbalanced comepared to other similar spells in their tier. Might we change this to give a bit of variety, allowing for slightly more useful and unique spells across the board?

reflex saves get used an aweful lot when IMHO there are other saves better used for a spell. I'd gladly take fortitude saves over reflex on some spells so that I can combat certain enemies with them instead of having a full spellbook of reflex saving throw spells and a single creature with improved evasion eating every one of my spells alive... even at a slight damage penalty...

a few examples of rediculously similar spells here at the moment

/-/Fireball - Glacius Breath of Winter - Glacius Ice Blast - Scintillating Sphere - Quillin's Arrow Burst\-\

All are reflex saves for half and do identical damage, just different types. Scintillating Sphere has a medium range as opposed to the long for the rest.
My opinion on these ones:
Change the Glacius Breath of Winter to fortitude saves like it's level 8 cousin, Glacius Hypothermia.

Upgrade the range of Scintillating Sphere to Long, like Fireball. Half the damage and give it a will save vs stun for 2 rounds, similar to Gnimish's Shockwave but with more damage, less stun. Give the creatures a bonus to the save for the stun effect as well seeing as the higher damage than Gnimish's Shockwave.

Give Quillin's Arrow Burst arrows the ability to do the caled shot effect, half for each type respectively, making each d6 separate hits (10, 1d6 damage hits, all with the ability to do the called shot effect)

Change the Glacius Ice Blast to half reflex/half fortitude for each respective damage type, as a hybrid of other spells. (like Dark Bolt, but with different saving throws)

/-/ Earthquake - Firestorm \-\

Both are reflex for half. The only difference is the damage types and the amount, unlike the above.

Maybe make the Earthquake ignore the immunities to magic/SR (Certain golems come to mind here), for creatures that have it, since it's more of a magically induced natural event than magic directly, keep the damage the same, maybe bring it from 10d6 (8?) to 15d6 (8?) and change the save to fortitude for half instead of reflex for half. No amount of evasion will save you from an earthquake after all...

Firestorm is perfectly good as it is IMHO

/-/ Horrid Wilting - Glacius Hypothermia - Phoenix's Shocking Blast \-\

Seeing as Horrid Wilting does magical damage and Glacius Hypothermia does ice damage, there's little reason to use the latter since they do the same damage with the same saving throw, just magical is almost impossible for creatures to resist.
My suggestion is to change horrid wilting to negative damage, thus rending it useless to the undead, and increase the damage to a cap of 30d6 against living targets. (d8? I can't remember off the top of my head)

Give Glacius Hypothermia a freeze/slow effect to compensate for the increased damage from Horrid Wilting.

Give Phoenix's Shocking Blast a stun effect like Gnimish's Shockwave.

While the saving throws aren't the biggest issue on these spells, the usefulness of them in comparison to one another is more my point here.
/-/ \-\
ALL of the spells that target undead/alignment specific targets... they do the same damage as the other spells of their similar level and have the same saving throws/SR. Seeing as how alignment/race restricts the spells so heavily, perhaps the damage for these spells could be increased drastically or another effect could be added to them all to compensate for their limited nature. I can't think of ideas for each one specifically right now, but aside from Silvania's Holy Rain (An amazing spell, even better if it would give me the XP and not just kill things without credit) they are highly useless compared to spells of similar levels for the most part.

... On a side note.... has anyone noticed that I have an almost unhealthy likeness for magic yet?

There's different versions of similar spells for resistance reasons, also aesthetics and style. Not everyone likes spamming fire all day everyday.

I understand that entirely... but I personally think that in many cases, certain spells are not used because of the massive drawbacks that come with them as opposed to other spells of similar level/power.

I used Glacius' Hypothermia for the longest time since I didnt feel like spamming horrid wilting...

I guess my point is that a bit of variety would be interesting to see across the spells that are currrently so similar it isnt funny...

When I have more time I will add my thoughts to this thread. I may not see the need to change all the spells listed, but some, maybe... others I think certain factors are not being taken into account in the analysis, so I will try to highlight those points. Give me a day or two...

I never expected all of them to be valid points. and I probably missed quite a number of things in there that could be looked at. I was listing off things in my head Many of those things need to be cross checked with others to make them more... reasonable... suggestions

There's some use for the multiple damage types of the same spell level Hypothermia does wonders vs cinder trolls. Fireballs don't do much against fire elementals, but ice blast or arrow burst does nice. Likewise, ice blast doesn't help against ice giants or frost trolls.

MannyJabrielle wrote:There's some use for the multiple damage types of the same spell level Hypothermia does wonders vs cinder trolls. Fireballs don't do much against fire elementals, but ice blast or arrow burst does nice. Likewise, ice blast doesn't help against ice giants or frost trolls.

This. Also, you don't have to use them.

This entire thread has inspired me to make an icy necromancer Yes... a rather odd combination, and a horrible title no less, but the idea is straight forward at least...

The alignment based spells (such as luminus' redeeming flames), while doing the same amount of damage as similar level spells, inflict positive energy damage (almost nothing resists that) and don't really hurt those you may not want to kill (like your allies...unless you're grouping with an evil person).

Many damage causing spells (the ones that send out cold, or flame, or bolts of lightning, etc.) are set as Reflex saves, since their effects can be partially or completely dodged (fireball is an explosion of flame that you can roll into a ditch or behind a door to partially avoid, phoenix's shocking blast is an explosion of lightning bolts, glacius' ice blast is an explosion of solid ice and freezing cold, etc.).

For effects like quillin's arrow burst, I went with the single Xd6 calculation for a couple of reasons. First, individual d6s would never really get through damage reduction of many creatures. Seconds, keeping it to a single damage calculation (per casting) and a single application of a damage effect (per target) cuts down on server load.

I thought scintillating sphere was long range. I'll have to change that in the future.

As far as horrid wilting...it already has no effect on undead or constructs. I'm changing it so it ignores PC vampires.

I'll have time to look at these more later.

I though Horrid Wilting used magic effect dmg?

Elhanan wrote:I though Horrid Wilting used magic effect dmg?

It does, but the spell itself doesn't apply that damage to undead or constructs.

Same with hypothermia... it doesn't affect undead or constructs either. Tis necromancy designed to kill living things

Wait... why is Glacius' Hypothermia a Necromancy spell? I'd expect something like evocation or some such...

But if Glacius' Hypothermia also doesn't affect undead, then that does prove my point... Over all, Horrid Wilting is more useful over all (Cinders aside) than Glacius' Hypothermia, since it does magical damage and that's almost never resisted, if ever.

Yes, Glacius' hypothermia is a necromancy spell. It's basicly the cold version of Horrids. Same range of damage, same spell level, same school. Just a different type of damage.

Like I said earlier... it has it's uses... more likely to kill off cinder trolls with a single cast of hypothermia than you are with a cast of horrids. Horrids is unresistable magical damage though, so it has more applications all-round, whereas hypothermia slams the bajeebus outa cold-vulnerable enemies.

Both are still really good. If sorcerers had a few more spells known per level, I'd love to add hypothermia to Aurora's spell book alongside horrid's.

I've noticed that many spells of the same damage tier and spell level use the same

saving throw for the same amount of damage or are unbalanced comepared to other similar

spells in their tier. Might we change this to give a bit of variety, allowing for slightly

more useful and unique spells across the board?

The spells that use the same saves but do different damage types accomplish exactly what you

are asking for. They add variety, and increase usefulness based on situation.

As for unbalanced spells... there are some that need to be buffed, sure. I have even

adressed that in some of previous posts.

reflex saves get used an aweful lot when IMHO there are other saves better used for a

spell. I'd gladly take fortitude saves over reflex on some spells so that I can combat

certain enemies with them instead of having a full spellbook of reflex saving throw spells

and a single creature with improved evasion eating every one of my spells alive... even at a

slight damage penalty...

a few examples of rediculously similar spells here at the moment

/-/Fireball - Glacius Breath of Winter - Glacius Ice Blast - Scintillating Sphere -

Quillin's Arrow Burst\-\

All are reflex saves for half and do identical damage, just different types. Scintillating

Sphere has a medium range as opposed to the long for the rest.
My opinion on these ones:
Change the Glacius Breath of Winter to fortitude saves like it's level 8 cousin, Glacius

Hypothermia.

Upgrade the range of Scintillating Sphere to Long, like Fireball. Half the damage and give

it a will save vs stun for 2 rounds, similar to Gnimish's Shockwave but with more damage,

less stun. Give the creatures a bonus to the save for the stun effect as well seeing as the

higher damage than Gnimish's Shockwave.

Give Quillin's Arrow Burst arrows the ability to do the caled shot effect, half for each

type respectively, making each d6 separate hits (10, 1d6 damage hits, all with the ability

to do the called shot effect)

Change the Glacius Ice Blast to half reflex/half fortitude for each respective damage type,

as a hybrid of other spells. (like Dark Bolt, but with different saving throws)

Glacius Breath of Winter and Glacius Hypothermia dont work the same, hence why they use

different saves. By way of explanation: Breath of winter creates a blast of artic cold in

the area.... its damage is inflicted by this external source. Hypothermia actually reduces

the internal temperature of living creatures in its area by means of attacking their

metabolism directly. This is both the reason why they use different saves AND why they also

come from different schools. Necromancy attacks the life force when used offensively,

evocation creates energy from nothing, and this energy does damage externally. You can dodge

a blast of energy (reflex save), but you cannot dodge a necromantic effect that lowers your

body's internal temperature.... you have to endure it (fort save).

I agree that scintillating sphere should be long range. Makes no sense for it to be medium.
I am not a fan of reducing its damage in order to add a stun, however. There are other 3rd

and lower level spells that can disable opponents quite nicely, if that is what one wishes

to do (sphere of denial comes to mind, though it could use more damage).... but decent

electrical damage is not easy to come by.

Quillin's I liked better before it was changed to its current version. It used to create

magical arrows of *force* that inflicted magical damage. It is an evocation, so this made

sense. It was then changed to create a hail of arrows.... which do physical damage.... this

is more in line with a Conjuration effect... and the mechanics make it significantly

weaker.... If opponents take physical damage, they can apply DR, and they ALSO get a save,

and at current they ALSO get SR. What that spell needs is to be made conjuration, disallow

SR, and make it a touch attack like phoenix's frigid bolts.... as well as allowing for

higher level casters to have the arrows pierce damage reduction.

As for the Ice blast, its basically a poor man's version of Ice Storm. Doesnt scale as well,

and allows a save... but it is a 3rd level spell, opposed to Ice Storm being 4th. I dont see

an issue there.

/-/ Earthquake - Firestorm \-\

Both are reflex for half. The only difference is the damage types and the amount, unlike the

above.

Maybe make the Earthquake ignore the immunities to magic/SR (Certain golems come to mind

here), for creatures that have it, since it's more of a magically induced natural event than

magic directly, keep the damage the same, maybe bring it from 10d6 (8?) to 15d6 (8?) and

change the save to fortitude for half instead of reflex for half. No amount of evasion will

save you from an earthquake after all...

Firestorm is perfectly good as it is IMHO

I could see earthquake ignoring SR. I could also see it doing knockdown on a failed save.
Reflex save still makes more sense to me, as it doesnt matter how tough you are, falling

down and being crushed by boulders or collapse/rockslide are going to hurt unless you manage

to avoid them (reflexes). Someone who is VERY acrobobatic(evasion) might even be able to

totally dodge out of harms way (grabbing ledges, and monkey acrobatics to avoid rocks,

etc).... indeed it makes more sense that they would avoid harm from being caught in an

earthquake in the middle of a field than from a fireball in the same area. If earthquake

gets a boost by disallowing SR, and a secondary knockdown effect... I dont think it would

also need a damage boost. Its a divine spell, and by design, they are not supposed to keep

pace with offensive arcane spells.

I agree that firestorm is a well done spell.

/-/ Horrid Wilting - Glacius Hypothermia - Phoenix's Shocking Blast \-\

Seeing as Horrid Wilting does magical damage and Glacius Hypothermia does ice damage,

there's little reason to use the latter since they do the same damage with the same saving

throw, just magical is almost impossible for creatures to resist.
My suggestion is to change horrid wilting to negative damage, thus rending it useless to the

undead, and increase the damage to a cap of 30d6 against living targets. (d8? I can't

remember off the top of my head)

Give Glacius Hypothermia a freeze/slow effect to compensate for the increased damage from

Horrid Wilting.

Give Phoenix's Shocking Blast a stun effect like Gnimish's Shockwave.

Horrid wilting is already useless against undead. The wilting damage does not come from any

sort of negative energy.... it comes from sapping/forcing the moisture out of a living

beings body... essentially the reason it does magical damage is because anything that is

subject to the spell's effects is not going to be able to resist those effects.... with a

successful save they may merely reduce them. Anything that is not alive, and/or doesnt have

water in it, wont be affected at all.

Hypothermia works in similar fashion, but it affects the temperature of the above mentioned

internal moitsure, rather than its removal from the body. Again, useless on anything that is

not alive, or doesnt contain water. Makes sense, and works as intended.

Both spells are absolutely *devastating* already from a damage perspective... considering

they are 8th level spells, and they do better damage than any of the 9th level spells, and

ontop of that, only allow a fortitude save which disallows evasion.

The problem is not with the damage of these two spells... but with the damage of their 9th

level counterpart, Meteor Shower.

The spells that work similarly but have minor differences are tailor made to be

*situational*, and this actually makes it worthwhile to be a wizard... cuz you can learn

them and memorize them when you think they will actually be useful. A sorceror wont and

shouldnt have the variety available to them, they are supposed to have to make VERY tough

choices on their spells.... because they can cast any of them whenever they want. Its not a

problem with the variety of spells... the variety is there, and the situations can be found

where they shine... but none of them are a swiss army knife.