Not Used: Two spell tweak suggestions

Greater Sanctuary: Could this spell be tweaked to grant the "sanctary effect" vs all, not just vs hostiles? Orcs come to mind with this one... I traveled to Fort Morth, cast sanctuary, but still got pounded nearly dead since the orcs start off as "neutral" (and hence, they could see me even under greater sanctuary)... and even after they detected me and turned hostile, they could still see me even though GS was in effect.

True Seeing: A number of servers tweak this spell to instead of granting automatic detection of those in stealth mode, it grants a considerable spot bonus. Could this be implemented here? Using stealth to sneak up on a dragon -should- be extremely difficult for all but the most dedicated stealth specialists, but not outright impossible as it is currently. It's also a bit of a letdown for a player who's 40th level character invested 86 skill points into their stealth skills (not counting the dex or other bonii to the skill), and they're simply negated by a single spell by a 11th level wizard or even a 9th level cleric, or even someone just wearing an item with true seeing and no points invested at all into spot/listen.

Definitely agreed on both counts, but I think it may take some tricky script writing on 's part to make True Seeing work properly since permanent TS (from items, skins, etc.) seems to be hard-coded in NWN and grants automatic Spot success regardless of changes to the mechanics of the spell itself.

.. Not really... just needs to tweak the spell.. then set all the items that use TS to the Cast Spell format instead....

Maybe with an "(if GetEffectCreator == "itemX)"
{ ApplyEffectToObject(oPC,SpellEffect(TS,PERM)},
and a remove TS on item unequip.. ..

PS thats NOT actual script code but (and many others) will get the drift... ..


It can't be that hard... managed a similar thing with each and every (ok - bar one) Perma-Haste item...

How about make True Seeing an illegal property on items (aside from the casted ability, and excluding Clerics that get the True Seeing bonus from their deity) and make the spell give a boost to spot, as well as giving it See invisibility and Ultravision, all rolled into one?

RustyDios wrote:It can't be that hard... managed a similar thing with each and every (ok - bar one) Perma-Haste item...

hehe...nope. The perma-haste items I simply made brand new items for (instead of using the default NWN items).

Trueseeing as an item property (rather than the spell) is hard-coded. I could change the spell script. I'll have to look which creatures have that on their "skin", and possibly just give them a huge spot bonus instead.

Well, the true seeing negating sneakiness there is a caveat to...
there is no equivalent for blindsense or blindsight in NWN. True seeing is the catchall for those.... no matter how stealthy you are, some things will just *know* you are there. Tremorsense comes to mind as well...

No amount of concealtment or hide check will prevent these abilities from detecting you. In NWN they made True Seeing incorporate this... I can see why 86 ranks and not having any chance to sneak up could be frustrating because of the ability being named after a spell.... but if there was an equivalent to the above mentioned abilities, the end result would be the same.

The problem though, it *is* a spell/spell-like ability, not blindsense or blindsight.

Switching the spell to grant a combo of see invisibility+a spot bonus would solve the balance between the spell and stealth skills.

For items, keep the "true seeing" trait and use if for any creatures who would have blindsight/blindsense, and switch items that grant "true seeing" to a spot bonus. As for the item property's ability to see invisibility, swap the "true seeing" for a new custom one that grants a see-invis effect on equip as well as a spot bonus. Or perhaps an even better method could be devised.

MannyJabrielle wrote:The problem though, it *is* a spell/spell-like ability, not blindsense or blindsight.

Switching the spell to grant a combo of see invisibility+a spot bonus would solve the balance between the spell and stealth skills.

For items, keep the "true seeing" trait and use if for any creatures who would have blindsight/blindsense, and switch items that grant "true seeing" to a spot bonus. As for the item property's ability to see invisibility, swap the "true seeing" for a new custom one that grants a see-invis effect on equip as well as a spot bonus. Or perhaps an even better method could be devised.

My point was, if there is blindsense/blindsight, then thats what the items should be switched to if true seeing is changed. Same end result.

Also bear in mind that magic can/should be able to duplicate blindsense/blindsight, but NWN and even Aenea have no equivalent for this. If you change true seeing so that it only affects invis/sanc, and gives a spot bonus, then there should be a spell for blindsense or blindsight... and also items that grant these effects..... why go to all the trouble? Its not worth it... honestly. True seeing is a rare ability in Aenea as it is... very few enemies have it. I dont even think the enemy casters ever use the spell.... and they dont do it -pre-emptively either... so you can sneak up on them before they have it active anyhow...

All changing the spell will do is screw caster PCs.

No, changing the spell doesn't screw casters.

While only a few aenea creatures have true-seeing, none use stealth, so PC casters aren't screwed, as it's never a viable threat to them to start with.

The benefit for stealth characters would be apparent, and the loss to caster characters would be nothing.

If anything, casters would actually gain a spot bonus, and hopefully one beyond the range granted by clairaudience/clairvoyance.

As for magic being able to mimic blindsight/blind sense, the the 3rd edition manual I last had, both were extraordinary abilities, not supernatural or magical.

In the end... why go through all the trouble? Because as stated in my original post, it's a huge letdown for a stealth based character to have their primary ability completely nerfed by an ability/spell that should not nerf it to start with. Honestly, there's other classes played in Aenea besides casters.

By playing a HiPS 'ing Shadowchild shadowdancer for 70% of my Aenea "career", I hate the monsters that have TS.. .. the ability is way too powerful IMO... the changes to have it just have a good (really good) spot bonus sound good to me... at least PC's based on stealth have a chance to sneak up on them...

As for blindsight/blindsense can the monsters not be granted the "Blindfight" feat... it sounds like it does similiar... and it breaks past stealth, sanctuary and invis (I think).. ??

The most common fix I have encountered is that TS acts like See Invisible plus adds bonuses for Spot & Search. To be honest, I thought this was already implemented like this here when I obtained the TS cloak with the added perception beneifits.

MannyJabrielle wrote:No, changing the spell doesn't screw casters.

While only a few aenea creatures have true-seeing, none use stealth, so PC casters aren't screwed, as it's never a viable threat to them to start with.

The benefit for stealth characters would be apparent, and the loss to caster characters would be nothing.

If anything, casters would actually gain a spot bonus, and hopefully one beyond the range granted by clairaudience/clairvoyance.

As for magic being able to mimic blindsight/blind sense, the the 3rd edition manual I last had, both were extraordinary abilities, not supernatural or magical.

In the end... why go through all the trouble? Because as stated in my original post, it's a huge letdown for a stealth based character to have their primary ability completely nerfed by an ability/spell that should not nerf it to start with. Honestly, there's other classes played in Aenea besides casters.

I have used stealth/sneak attack enemies against PCs MANY times (even against YOUR PCs).... if they don't have TS, they get a nasty surprise, and the smart ones cast it quickly, or put on an item that grants it. It IS a threat to PC casters, even to all PCs. It just is not used often. The same can be said of enemies with TS.

The difference comes in that the enemies with TS should actually have an ability like blindsense or blindsight rather than TS.... and either way, no matter what you call it, the end result is the same... you dont get to sneak up on them.

Changing the spell will only affect PCs casters... and its not worth the effort.

NPCs dont use the spell, and wont have it active when you want to sneak up on them anyways. Changing the spell is irrelevant, and will not fix your issue. Changing the True Seeing property is the only way to "fix" that, and should not be done because the enemies that have it only have said property to simulate abilities that stop you from sneaking up on them, no matter what name you assign to it. The ability being called True Seeing is the problem. If it was called blindsense, and did the exact same thing, there is no issue to discuss.
Its not worth all the hubbub over the name.

Also, magic can and does simulate extraordinary abilities (sometimes even class abilities and features), not just magical or supernatural ones. Lots and lots of buffs do just that. Divine power, Tensers, Barksin, stat buffs, darkvision, and polymorphs just to name a few.

daveyeisley wrote:I have used stealth/sneak attack enemies against PCs MANY times (even against YOUR PCs)....

And how frequent is a DM using stealthy NPCs on PCs? Five, six times a day? Fix, six times a week? Month?

if they don't have TS, they get a nasty surprise, and the smart ones cast it quickly, or put on an item that grants it.

And tweaking the spell prevents them from casting the spell how exactly?

Changing the spell will only affect PCs casters... and its not worth the effort.

No, again, wrong.


Ok, let me explain in detail how this change works, and how it doesn't, in your words, "screw caster PCs".

Current Model:
TS grants ability to see invisibility, see through the effects of the darkness spell, and see others in hiding, regardless of their hide/move silently skill.

PC caster and PC stealther team up and go visit a dragon.

PC caster can walk around the dragon in GS freely because the dragon's TS doesn't penetrate GS.

PC stealther cannot ever hope of sneaking up on the dragon because with TS's current workings, that's 86 skill points, and however many stealth enhancing feats 100% nerfed.

PC caster is free to cast TS himself, no harm, not screwed in any shape or form.

Proposed Tweak:
TS grants the ability to see invisibility, see through the effects of the darkness spell, and grants the caster a healthy spot/search bonus. Exact level of the bonus hasn't been suggested, but let's say for the sake of argument, 10+1/caster level bonus to each skill. For item/creature TS, a work-around could be granted to give appropriate spot/search depending on the creature's DC, as well as the see invis/ultravision effects.

PC caster can walk around the dragon in GS freely, because the dragon's TS doesn't penetrate GS.

The PC stealther can sneak around the dragon, provided he or she has favorable rolls in his skill checks vs the dragon's TS boosted skills. If he or she fails the check, stealth is blown. If the checks are made, hooray.

PC caster is free to cast TS himself, no harm, not screwed in any shape or form.



Now, please, explain how in your view, this "Screws PC casters"? Is the PC caster somehow prevented from using TS? Is the PC caster prevented from using any other spell? And please explain your claim that this "only affects casters", and has absolutely NO benefit to stealth characters what so ever to make it "not worth the effort"?

Before we go into the "wall of text mode" where you obfuscate my points.... let me boil it down real simple-like.

NPCs do not use the spell. Changing the spell will not address your stated issue, it will only affect PCs who use the spell, and it will make them more vulnerable to sneaking enemies.

Your issue is with NPCs who you cannot sneak up on due to the NPC having the True Seeing ability, which is always active. This is for the intended purpose of making that enemy unsurprisable. Some things you can't sneak up on. If the ability were called blindsense, you would have the same problem, and no basis to complain about it.

You cant sneak up on everything, no matter how sneaky you are.

I think there should be a certain amount of sneaky where you Can, because a dedicated sneaker is, usually, a pretty big investment, skillwise.

Maybe have a natural hide/move silently above 40 give immunity to truesights stealth seeing effect?

Alternatively, all rogues: custom yourselves some greater sanctuary wands.

And before you start in with the personal attacks (oh wait, you alraedy have!), let me make my point clear again.

The suggestion I made is to switch the TS ability on creatures/items as well to a spot/search boost method as well as the spell being switched to such.

This does not, as you put it "screw PC casters".

The only "obfuscation" is your claim that everything with TS is in reality blindsight/blindsense, or that this or that "should" be this or that. This isn't about "blindsight/blindsense", it's about TS.

In the end, I've made my suggestion, it's logical, it's not a nerf to casters, it's a benefit to stealthers, and it places True-Seeing more in line with the PnP version of the spell/ability, but with the skill bonus which is -not- in the PnP version.

I'm not going to further engage in yet another boring argument with someone intent on slamming me because he's got a problem with my suggestions, ideas, or the fact that I do not always hold the same opinion of as he does.

Have a nice night, I'm really sick and tired of this BS and I'm done with it.

1. NWN attempts to be faithful to the DnD world and rules set. This is undeniable even when considering exceptions such as engine limitations, balance issues, the translation of turn-based game game mechanics to "real-time", and what would detract from the "fun" factor of the game. It is a large part of the appeal, and is the reason why Bioware licensed the IP and attempted to be consistent with it.


2. True Seeing (PnP) was not intended to penetrate concealment (per se), non-magical disguises, or hiding creatures/PCs. True Seeing does not immunize the user from Sneak Attacks as Sneak Attacks can be made under several conditions that True Seeing does not address - even being able to see through Invisibility does not necessarily prevent a Sneak Attack (flanking, from cover or other operable concealment, winning initiative, and more).


3. The strongest argument I can see for keeping True Seeing as it now operates is simply because this is the way it was implemented. Perhaps the designers felt high dice sneak attacks were simply to unbalancing, perhaps it was a scenario they did not even consider or did not anticipate, or maybe there was limited resources to make changes and more important issues to address than this (man, if you haven't done the Bataan Death March to GM, you haven't lived Smile). I'm not saying the latter three issues were the case, and it very well may be the former for specific reasons I'm unaware of or disagree with.


4. But if the argument that original implementation equates to intention or fair or best case scenario simply because it is the original implementation, then there would be no reason to make any changes barring bugs that made it into release. A more reasonable position would be that changes to game mechanics should be modified (or, in the end, left as is) with rationalized intent.

And we find that this is indeed the case for NWN in general and Aenea specifically. Bioware itself has made changes to NWN through its patches, and The Amethyst Dragon has made specific setting changes (how spells work or are available, items and effects accessible to players, etc..). With that in mind, I think we can dismiss point #3 when considering point #4.


5. An argument (or rather, a naked assertion) was made that "magic can/should be able to duplicate blindsense/blindsight, but NWN and even Aenea have no equivalent for this."


6a. Tremorsense (PnP) and Blindsense (PnP) do not immunize the possessor against Sneak Attacks. A creature or PC with Tremorsense and Blindsense can be Sneak Attacked under a variety of conditions (some as described in point #2). This is true even when a creature could be using both Blindsense and Trueseeing. While these abilities/effects prevent Sneak Attacks in the most common scenarios, it does not prevent being flanked, losing initiative, etc...


6b. Because NWN or Aenea do not have equivalencies to Blindsense or Tremorsense or other abilities (non-standard and usually unavailable to PnP PCs already) is not an argument that NWN or Aenea should have equivalencies, even if it is believed the abilities conferred by those two things can be duplicated by magic. If it is believed differently, then the onus is on the individual to argue why they think this to be the case.

After all, there are many things NWN and Aenea do not have equivalencies for (such pepper to confuse scent, fighting while levitating to negate tremorsense, the ability to use Prestidigitation/other spells to confuse the senses, and a host of other things that would hamper or negate Blindsense).


There is little reason to assume that True Seeing was meant to incorporate the benefits of Tremorsense or presume that it should. There is nothing to suggest this unless because of point #3 (addressed in point #4). Simply because True Seeing de facto grants similar benefits (even beyond those ability's descriptions) is not an argument but an assertion that carries little inductive strength.


If you really want some fun, see if your DM will allow your Half-Orc to have Scent. Mine did to his regret. Shoot, another time I made plenty use of my Ranger's horse's Scent to cast area effect spells and launch splash effect weapons at particular 5' squares :-)

-----------------

Changing True Seeing in the manner described in the thread would hardly be game breaking or unbalancing, nor subject casters to undue risk, and it would validate the effort roguish players put into their character. I guarantee we won't be seeing one 40th level Shadowdancer holding off multiple 40th level casters in the Arena if the change is made.

Because True Seeing negates the ability to sneak up on casters does not mean that it should. There is specific name for that fallacy.

And I reject the argument that simply states:

Magic, it should do stuff!
---------------------------
Ergo, you can't do that!


That is a poor reason to conclude that some things can't be snuck up on.

Hey, y'all, let's not forget that it's a game, and we're supposed to have fun playing it, and even talking about it.

S'vair wrote :

I guarantee we won't be seeing one 40th level Shadowdancer
holding off multiple 40th level casters in the Arena if the change is
made.

... hmm.. now that almost sounds like a challenge...
~~ Jay Braysin, Wandering Shadow of Aenea...

Before I go on, I will say that I've never played DnD/PnP before. Also, we all need to remember that we are playing NwN and not PnP/DnD. Although there are many similarities between the two (three?) the simple truth comes down to the fact that NwN is based off of PnP/DnD not a copy off.

Now.. that being said..

True Seeing, IMHO, is a tad bit overpowered, whether it be via Spell or otherwise. It pierces almost any stealth-type abilities a person can use, as has been established here.

As for casters being "nerfed" so to speak, there's almost no penalty to them whatsoever. I personally play casters, both Divine and Arcane, and I will say that I use the spell to save myself from using two spell slots instead of one, since I use the effect as a combination of See Invisibility and Ultravision. The stealth spotting effect is almost never used. Start throwing hundreds of stealth creatures and then I'll say otherwise, but until then there's no "need" for a caster to have the full (NwN standard) benefits of True Seeing. So long as you add Ultravision to Manny's suggetion, I'm all for it.

Now, (Not trying to be a walking contradiction here), there are some creatures that I believe should just "know" that you're there. Kinda like when you think you're being followed, but you aren't (I believe it's commonly referred to as Paranoia)... except... you are. I mean, really.. how long have Ancient or Old dragons had to hone such an ability? Wyrmlings and young dragons shouldn't have that because they haven't gotten the Power/Experience that comes with such age. '

Now, as another point here.. How many creatures that you find actually use stealth? Almost none. Invisibility, yes, but not stealth. Thus that argument here has almost no grounds. Again, start throwing hundreds of stealth using enemies and I'll say otherwise, but until then it's a non-issue.

From the caster's viewpoint again, if one enemy comes up in stealth and whacks you once, the thing is probaby dead within two rounds. One good death spell and it'll usually die since stealthers have low fort saves. Even if they do get off one good sneak attack, you'll take a lot of damage, but you probably won't die. Then you pop a full healing potion and go on your way. Unless there's a Stealthing Creature & and Dev. Crit. creature rolled into one (And please PLEASE don't get any ideas here... it would NOT be fun there ) I don't see sneak attacks being such a problem.

But even at all of the above... how many creatures have True Seeing as a natural ability? Not that many. Dragons and a handful of others. Even at that rate, there's not much to worry about. Even less enemies actually cast the spell. Over all, I can't even see why this is an issue. Granted that Stealthers can't fight them as easily, but that's where creative tactics and item usage comes into play. There shouldn't be one "perfect tactic" that works on everything for ANY class. Use all that DEX you've gotten whip out a short bow with elemental arrows and kick it's behind. If you've gotten boots of striding/stepping, you can outrun almost any creature and just attack when you have a moment, running the creature in circles. Heck, even standard beholders, with all of those eyes, don't have true seeing. The way Manny put it made it seem (to me) that there are True Seeing enemies everywhere, which there aren't to my knowledge. (Whether unintentionally or not, I can't say. ... it might just be how I read it. )



as a final note here... if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to and I apologize, however I think this needed to be said..

I think folks are reading a bit much into what I wrote, and I will try to further simplify it.

We dont change things in Aenea to accomodate PvP, this has been established.

Changing the True Seeing SPELL wil not address the problem raised in this thread. Specifically, sneaky characters will not gain a benefit against enemies due to a change made to the spell. NPCs do not cast it. Hence, change the spell, you still have the same issue... AND PC casters will then have to worry about failing spot checks against sneaking enemies, even after taking the action to cast the spell.

The spell is fine as it is, merely because it does not get used against PCs by the NPCs. The only time the True Seeing SPELL will be used against a PC is in a PvP situation... and there is no point wasting time for such changes when Aenea is not a PvP world.

As for the passive True Seeing ability, I think we ALL agree it is exceedingly rare in Aenea. To my recollection, only three enemies have it. Dragons, Elder Beholders, and Gron.

You arent supposed to be able to sneak up on those. If you want to sneak attack them, you need to flank them, and undead dragons and Gron are immune, so for them the point is moot.

Those are my points, and they are quite valid and logical.

I perfectly understand that I simply included both the spell and the passive ability for the sake of completion. My reasoning for adding to the suggestion on how to change the spell is to add something given that True Seeing is removed. Highly unlikely, but a possibility that I had to take into account.

However, you are right IMHO. There's really no reason to change it as the world is currently. Three enemies have true seeing. That's not a whole lot. (OK, more than three, since there is more than one dragon, but still) There are far more enemies that can be fought instead of those three. So why this even came up bewilders me to no end... '

As for the other suggestion MannyJabrielle made, involving Greater Santuary, I like that. It would make more sense. At least to me it would

As for the claim that enemies never use TS. I've had a few pop a scroll or potion, one as recent as this morning.

As for the claim that you shouldn't be able to sneak up on X baddie.... Well, unless of course you're a mage! Pop a GS, and to the hula around your favorite dragon.

It came up, Evilkitty, because in playing a couple stealth characters, it's always a huge letdown when my character's primary skills are flat out nerfed. Sure, I don't -have- to hunt dragons, or dracoliches, or this or that. I don't even have to play at all.

I don't have to make suggestions on how I think things could be improved, nobody does! At times I actually consider not posting any suggestions because if they don't expressly benefit casters, or if my opinion differs, it eventually leads to personal attacks on me because I write out posts longer than a few scant sentences, which gets old, but unfortunately happens.

But players here do make suggestions based on how they think their gaming experience could be better. This is not limited to grand, huge changes, but also lots of little changes get suggested too, or changes that don't affect everybody and everything.

MannyJabrielle wrote:As for the claim that enemies never use TS. I've had a few pop a scroll or potion, one as recent as this morning.

As for the claim that you shouldn't be able to sneak up on X baddie.... Well, unless of course you're a mage! Pop a GS, and to the hula around your favorite dragon.

It came up, Evilkitty, because in playing a couple stealth characters, it's always a huge letdown when my character's primary skills are flat out nerfed. Sure, I don't -have- to hunt dragons, or dracoliches, or this or that. I don't even have to play at all.

I don't have to make suggestions on how I think things could be improved, nobody does! At times I actually consider not posting any suggestions because if they don't expressly benefit casters, or if my opinion differs, it eventually leads to personal attacks on me because I write out posts longer than a few scant sentences, which gets old, but unfortunately happens.

But players here do make suggestions based on how they think their gaming experience could be better. This is not limited to grand, huge changes, but also lots of little changes get suggested too, or changes that don't affect everybody and everything.

Heh. Nice.

So, it sounds like you are saying that you want to be able to sneak up on everything if you dump enough feats and points into stealth.

Well, heck, I want to be able to use all my spells on golems if I put in enough levels.

I want to be able to use horrid wilting on all enemies, including undead.

I want Gron to be vulnerable to reflex save spells.

Problem is, some enemies were designed to be immune to certain things.

As for item usage for TS? That could indeed happen, sure..... but so rarely, that I would attest I have used stealth enemies on PCs just as often if not more often. And then we can discuss how spells can be *dispelled* just like any other buff. ... as well as the fact that the enemy doesnt USE items until AFTER they see you, which means you already got to sneak up on them.

The rarity of the effect is all the balance needed. It is nowhere near as common as you make it out to be, nor as unfair.

Oh... and when stealth is supposed to work the same as greater sanctuary, and actually shift you into another plane of existence temporarily, then you will have a valid argument. GS doesnt allow you to sneak up... it only stops the enemy with TS from *targeting* you directly.... they still know you are there. hence why it doesnt work against gron or the elder beholder... cuz they just start using AoEs against you.