Not Used: Epic Reward Vouchers

Recently, I discovered to my dismay that Dev Crit is used in the game against the PC's. Tis only fair as the Players still can use this feat (though I do not like it or use it myself), but the 58 DC in use in this case is a decent indicator that I need to find a way to avoid meeting this again if possible.

My first thoughts are Immunity. To my knowledge, there seem to be only a few ways in the game to gain such an effect:

* Class benefits - Palemaster, Ironheart, Shifter, and those classes with ways to shift into Immune creatures (eg; Undead, Elementals, Constructs, etc).

* Ascended characters

I cannot think of any other method currently. No items have been found in the game granting such Immunity, and per the current crafting rules, these cannot be placed on items.

As a DM, I can see why such powerful Immunities and effects are monitored. However, all these restrictions are on the Players side of play. On the monsters side, there are many foes with such a defense (ie; the Undead, Elementals, Constructs etc mentioned earlier), and these are seen at all level of play.

My suggestion is not to lift the ban on Immune to Crit totally, but to revisit all the creation restrictions like this one to see if Epic vouchers could allow such possible benefits and effects. Epic vouchers could mean received from Epic characters, or to allow use of them on vouchers of 128 hrs or more.

Thanks!

Saves. Saves. Saves.
Paladin, blackguard, and CoDalix add to saves classwise, and clerics, monks, barbarians, and fighters all have Fort as a strong save.

Add fort/universal saves bonuses to your custom gear, perhaps. Or you know, avoid things that devcrit you. It's just a fighter's Wail, after all.

The baddie in question (won't say who, it's part of a quest), has a DC high enough where even with extremly high (30+) charisma + champ/paladin/blackguard bonus and oodles of save bonus items, is extremely difficult to resist....

As for crit immunity, I like the crit immunity from ascension. It's a very hefty bonus, requires a hefty amount of investment too (80 levels!). One can also gain crit immunity from the sources mentioned...

But I dunno if making it more rampant would be a good thing. Critical hits immunity not just blocks crits, but blocks sneak attack/death attack damage, which cripples those who use it (not that there's many sneak-attacking baddies in aenea anyway). And the one baddie mentioned in the opening statement is a quest deal, not a rank-n-file baddie everyone's gonna be hunting every day.

The more I think about it, granting crit immunity lessens the value of the classes with access to it, most of which the immunity is a key feature of the investment into the class. Ascension already lessens the value of those classes, although ascension itself requires an 80 level investment to start with).

I agree with manny's points here, totally.

I would also like to add that the enemy in question can be defeated without crit immunity. I have done it... in melee and with spells.

Its a VERY tough fight. No doubt about it, but it can be won without crit immunity... and it can be soloed without such as well.

AC is a great defense against dev crit, because if they cna barely hit you, they will crit you even less. I saw one PC defeat that enemy based on his AC alone.

Use Magic Device ranks (which I know aargyle has) can also open up a TON of avenues to win that fight if you get inventive.... you may have to hunt around for scrolls or have them scribed, but its doable... and winning that fight SHOULD take a lot of effort the first time around.

There is also the option of partying up... I once complained about the power level of that enemy specifically and told me that he designed the fight to be a challenge for a full party of epic level PCs.

It all about strategy... .trust me. When I see you in game, I will go over some things with you.

I agree that having Immunity to Crit, Knockdown, and even HiPS should not be a common item effect. But are 128 or 256 hour vouchers common?

In the example I cited with 58 DC, I have no plans to remake the classes I originally selected to gain extra special FORT boosts. I mean, even if Aargyle still had both Fort feats in his listings, it would still take a natural 20 to Save given the same equipment.

And I know there are tricks, tactics, and ways to defeat said foes; avoid letting them get an attack at all comes to mind. But it would also seem fair that a PC with 128 or 256 hours invested in the character will probably be Epic, and may have access to effects not common to the world like Immunity to Crit. Or they may have the playing experience to obtain an item more commonly seen, like those that are on known devices (eg; Boots with Immunity to KD, or Boots with Imp Evasion, etc) to be used as the base item in such a voucher.

As for the area in question, a couple of us went in there today, and Aargyle burned thru 3 pair of Lysis bracers, as they failed to work the last time, and Aarg ended up in the Great Hall for his lucky 13th trip.

BBoD was used 4 times; no kill or apparent dmg but it draws out spells like a dream.

Summon IX: can you say useless?

Buffed and tried Iron Golem form; no luck either, but at least the foe was hurt a little.

Note: Great Cleave defeated my Greater Sanctuary; standing too close I guess. And the one in question seems to be able to retarget Invisible creatures with ease. Uncertain if these are bug issues or not, but thought it best to note them.

Think Aargyle will pass on this one, at least for now. But Immunity to Crit and Epic reward vouchers are still on the table as suggestions to help, not only here but in any such encounters (eg; arena PvP, vorpal spells & blades, etc).

Targeting Invisible opponents is a major issue for NPC's. Even when LoS is broken, they still target you with melee. Great cleave might work on people in Greater Sanctuary, but I can't personally confirm it, though I don't think it's supposed to if it does.

I've never seen an enemy that uses Devastating critical before, so I can't vouch for that, but the eye beams from the Beholders have relatively high DCs as well for the average build. My cleric still can't make the ssave most of the times for some of them. (Though she's finally immune to the Death Ray, YAY. Thanks for finally getting that one fixed BTW) mainly the fortitude/reflex ones. Petrification is the worst when I forget to put on my cloak.

However, the DCs aren't completely unbeatable either, unlike teh Dev Crit which I believe the maximum is somewhere near 60 on the DC. Most normal classes won't reach that without some help. Dev crit's save is reiculously high, and could/should probably be cut down to match Arrow of Death's DC, while the Pale Masters touch should be upped respectively (I'm pretty sure it's always 18, unless that's quivering palm, at which point that should be upped too IMHO). At least that's how I feel. Granted, there's more invested in Dev Crit. But that doesnt warrant a 20 point boost in DC. It's infinitely usable assuming you make a crit, unlike Arrow of Death or the Pale Master's death touch or Quivering Palm.

The summon spells are quite useless by the time you can cast them IMHO as well. They could do with some leveled increases.

However, considering that this is a single (as far as I know) occurance, why is it such a problem? Critical hits hurt, but usually won't kill you instantly. If one creature has Dev Crit. to slaughter PCs like we do to them, I say all the more power to it.

I'm not sure what BBoD is, would you mind clearing that up for me?

BBoD = Black Blade of Disaster

One reason why dev crit is a love-it-or-hate-it feat is that it's hard-coded, and can't be tweaked. The min DC will be 27 to 37 depending on character level, the max DC can be as high as 60.

And what can make this understandably frustrating for players is, while it does take a crit roll to do a dev crit, higher strength not only brings a higher DC, bit a higher AB to confirm that threat roll with. And with the right weapon used, that pretty much guarentees death without crit immunity.

Fortunately, dev crit is not something you see on baddies other than that one, so it's mostly an advantage, and a huge one, PCs have over the monsters. Which is good, considering the advantages they have over us (eye beams, anyone?)

Then should the other death feats be tweaked to allow for Higher DCs based on their respective stats is my question now.