Not Used: Weapon Damage Balance Suggestion

by **Maeglin Dubh** Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:49 am

We toured a few different servers over the weekend for a bit of fresh perspective and exploration. We decided we prefer Aenea for a lot of reasons, but we also came away from the experience with some new ideas.

This was the first one that really stuck out to me, from the Realms of Midgard server. Weapon there are balanced such that a finesser will not be able to wield a kukri with the same level of damage additions as a greatsword, and it struck me as a fairly sensible system.

The system, when applied to Aenea, could look like this....

Damage cap on weapon enhancements is based on weapon size, as follows.
Tiny = 1d6
Small = 1d8
Medium = 1d10
Large = 1d12

One elemental type may be brought to the maximum allowed by the size, the rest are restricted to the max of one size category lower.

This could be changed for custom weapons, perhaps, since I know a lot of Dex users rely on having 2d8 magical on their kukris and/or rapiers, and anything already existing would be grandfathered in. But what this does is allow heavy weapons the chance to do heavy damage, as their users are usually sacrificing AC for the ability to do so, and under the current system, I don't feel their sacrifice is fully rewarded. This mainly refers to damage granted by dwarf miniquests; existing items would remain as they are, theoretically.

by **daveyeisley** Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:46 pm

The heavy 2 handers are tailor made for strength builds, and coincidentally get 1.5 time strength modifier to damage.... with a high strength build, thats where youre gonna see that strength bonus get jacked WAY up... my main issue, really.... is with power attack and improved power sttack...

I dont mind giving up shield AC or extra attacks from an offhand weapon for that 1.5 times strength mod, i think thats a good trade to a degree.... but in PnP... the *real* benefit of going with a 2 hander is that the power attack feats give you a damage bonus equal to *double* what you shave off your AB. Improved power attack with a 2 hander should be giving a flat +20 damage bonus.... and *that* is why heavy 2 handers should be feared. Those characters are the ones who make things *explode* when they crit, just from sheer damage....

The elemental bonus damages I dont have an issue with as things go... yes, dual wielders get a bit more mileage out of them.... but they also suffer from lower AB (due to the dual wield penalty), get nerfed *that* much worse by energy resistances, and get absolutely destoyed by damage shields like acid sheath.... and they are also *far* less likely to be able to punch through DR.

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:04 pm

daveyeisley wrote:in PnP... the *real* benefit of going with a 2 hander is that the power attack feats give you a damage bonus equal to *double* what you shave off your AB

NWN (and Aenea) basically run off the 3rd Edition rules, where Power Attack is a straight point for point trade-off up to your BAB. BioWare just made it simplified with a straight 5 point trade (or 10 point of Improved Power Attack).

Now, if only Power Attack weren't hard-coded and if only I could script stuff for melee attacks, I'd add a VC command to pick your amount of attack bonus for damage trade. Alas...

Oh, crap. Scripter brainstorming...

Spoiler:

Damn. It's possible. Ok, it's on my list to script and test right after "finish changing and testing firestarter class".

by **MannyJabrielle** Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:42 pm

Or perhaps instead of turning it on for 5 rounds, have it turn on until turned off?

One of my pet peeves with NWN1 is how the combat modes "shut off" the instant you're "out of combat", even if it's just beause the enemy was just an inch too far away or what not.

If it's possible to turn on, and leave on the combat modes like power attack and expertise, that would absolutely ROCK.

by **daveyeisley** Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:27 am

MannyJabrielle wrote:Or perhaps instead of turning it on for 5 rounds, have it turn on until turned off?

One of my pet peeves with NWN1 is how the combat modes "shut off" the instant you're "out of combat", even if it's just beause the enemy was just an inch too far away or what not.

If it's possible to turn on, and leave on the combat modes like power attack and expertise, that would absolutely ROCK.

This. 100%.

As for 3.0 power attack... i can see now... why it was changed for 3.5...

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:31 am

I could do it for longer (maybe up to a minute of real time). The only reason I gave a really short duration in my post above is that it would rely on temporary item properties...make the duration much longer and I'd have to run on-unequip scripts constantly (stripping all temporary properties, even those from spells like magic weapon) to prevent people from picking up a weapon, going "power attack", then handing a "powered up" weapon off to a friend/ally to use.

by **daveyeisley** Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:37 am

While I see your point from the abuse standpoint.... having the buff last 5 minutes isnt all that bad. I can't see players handing weapons back and forth every 5 minutes to gain those props.

by **evilkittenofdoom** Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:09 am

Is it also possible to make the power attack increased with the weapon size as was suggested?

I do like the suggestion though, assuming it stacks properly

by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:38 pm

i like that powerattack idea. it would be awesome if you could also do it for expertise and maybe charge. Smile

by **Maeglin Dubh** Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:45 pm

I think I'm just slightly bothered by the fact that the damage difference between a fully enchanted dagger and a fully enchanted longsword is an average of 2 points of damage, and I think using a real weapon should convey a bit more of an advantage.

by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm

the damage difference between a plain dagger and a plain longsword is also 2 points average.

usually the dagger is used in combination with sneak attacks, but they lack power allready in Aenea compared to lowerlvl enchanted worlds, no? (highlvl of enchantment on weapon, but sneak attack damage stays the same as on any world).

i think the issue is more complex than you makes it seem, if you want to truely ballance tiny vs big AND str vs dex.

but i can also see how i am biased given that i play a lot of str based Halflings with kukris. yes, i might be the most biased person on the tiny side of weapons. still my Goblin kin RDD is stronger than anyone from Beuttleria, and i DEMAND i do more damage even with kukris Very Happy

by **MannyJabrielle** Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:59 pm

With the power attack idea...

I'd probably want to keep it as is rather than switch it to a VC command if it can't be set to stay toggled on or off.

As cool as it'd be to be able to specify how much penalty/bonus to get... it'd be even more annoying to have to constantly be checking my character sheet to see when the bonus wore off and reactivate the power attack. At least with power attack/expertise as is, I know when they turn off by the highlight on the quickslotted power attack/expertise icon.

It would be even more annoying than having to click on it more often in combat than I do already with how it shuts off when I go "out of combat". I'd really rather click on it two or three times in a prolonged fight than have to click on it 10 or 15 times.

by **Alundaio** Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:37 pm

Um the power of a weapon really comes from the owners Strength. A dex build is never going to have the AB or the Damage output as a strength build using a Longsword or greater. A dex build doesn't even get much of a higher AC either. Infact D&D is already balanced. Like Gruftlord says, It's way more complicated than just weapon size. It really all comes down to Classes. A fighter can get more feats to make his Damage greater than any other class. Yet a rogue can become one of the most Dodgey and skillful of them all. It's min-maxing builds which exploit multiclassing which brings things out of balance.
Manny how do you think I feel having to activate Rapid shot every single time combat is iniated...lol. Not to mention having to activate my quiver every 15 rounds.

by **MannyJabrielle** Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:52 pm

Same as with my AA, hehe. That's why I'd advocate something that involved less clicking, not something that'd bring about more clicking Smile

by **eeriegeek** Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:01 pm

Despite their flaws.. especially with regard to getting aborted while still in combat due to reach or something... one nice feature of the current power attack / expertise modes is that they remain on until cancelled. Trying to stay on top of whether or not the mode is active by examining the weapon during combat would be a real pain. Another cool feature is that they remain enable even when you switch weapons... A.D. you mentioned the OnEquip/Unequip events... is it possible to handle it in the OnUnacquire event instead to prevent transfer of a "powered up" weapon. Also... My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that the game engine only applies the largest damage bonus... so it you added +10 for power attack as a temporary bonus... you would loose the + for enhancement bonus unless it was a different damage mode.

by **daveyeisley** Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:21 am

I have to agree on the "clicking" aspect. Less clicking = better.

I also agree on the high end dmg comes from Str comment.
Gruftlord did make an excellent point that mundane weapons avg dmg is separated by very little from the get go.

Another thing to consider. As far as elemental damage bonsues....
Having a bigger weapon will not affect the ability of a magical aura to blast a victim with energy. Even in PnP, you get the "flaming" property added onto a weapon.... you do 1d6 fire, regardless of weapon size.

One the power attack side of things, this would be a case where I think the 3.5 version of the rule is *so* much better than the 3.0 version, that we should consider adopting it somehow... and if there is a way to *also* make the damn combat modes stay enabled until the player *manually* turns them off, I would be all for it.

by **Alundaio** Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:36 am

Too bad they are hard coded. But hey, I'm all for removing Rapid Shot and replacing it with a different feat that just adds another ranged attack but subtracts 2 for AB. Haha. Can you tell via a script if a Mode is Activated? Can you also Activate or Deactivate modes? I wonder if you can just make a script that just activates the mode every round. If not I guess people can use a macro to hit F4 or whatever the quickslot number is every 6 seconds. lol.

by **MannyJabrielle** Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:16 am

I saw a mod somewhere that changed flurry of blows somehow. I can't find it again however to see how exactly they did whatever they did. I *sorta* remember something about a bit of 2da editing, but I can't find any 2da's that deal with combat modes.

by **Alundaio** Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:30 am

Edited:
So best bet is hoping it can be done via a script.If so the best way to do it would to only let combat modes deactivate when combat is over. ie. When you can rest.

by **daveyeisley** Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:24 am

Alundaio wrote:Edited:
So best bet is hoping it can be done via a script.If so the best way to do it would to only let combat modes deactivate when combat is over. ie. When you can rest.

Or when the player *manually* disables them in combat.

by **Alundaio** Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:30 am

I looked through the Nwn Script generator and scoured the Script forums with no luck. I also posted a question asking if it is possible. Yes, Rapid Shot deactivates when combat is over already. It'd be great to be able to toggle it only once. It would also be useful for Flurry of Blows and such. If not the other option is to make a hack that does it, lol.

by **Alundaio** Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:24 pm

There may be some hope. Possible to Get and Set a Player's Action Mode...example:
if (GetActionMode(oPC, ACTION_MODE_FLURRY_OF_BLOWS)==FALSE)
SetActionMode(oPC, ACTION_MODE_FLURRY_OF_BLOWS, TRUE);

by **The Amethyst Dragon** Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:40 pm

I'm planning on combining 3.0 and 3.5 versions of power attack.

Power Attack: swap 1 attack bonus (up to BAB) for 1 damage point
Improved Power Attack: swap 1 attack bonus (up to BAB) for 2 damage points
(these would not stack)

ex.
PA: BAB 10, swap out all 10 to get +10 damage
IPA: BAB 10, swap out all 10 to get +20 damage

by **Alundaio** Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:50 pm

Great! Now you'll see a HUGE diffence in damage between a Dex and a Strength build. Now Maeglin can't protest! Very Happy

by **daveyeisley** Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:46 am

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:I'm planning on combining 3.0 and 3.5 versions of power attack.

Power Attack: swap 1 attack bonus (up to BAB) for 1 damage point
Improved Power Attack: swap 1 attack bonus (up to BAB) for 2 damage points
(these would not stack)

ex.
PA: BAB 10, swap out all 10 to get +10 damage
IPA: BAB 10, swap out all 10 to get +20 damage

Awesome

EDIT: after thinking about it.... while this route does show promise.... there is still more or less the
same issue.... dex focused dual-wield builds with a mere 13 str can still get imp. power attack... thereby
negating the advantage intended for 2handed weapons.

by Guest Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:49 pm

should be doable to double the damage on a 2hander, no?

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