Custom Item: +8 Armor Bonus Bracer with Other Properties?

After reviewing the Custom Item (via Vouchers) Limits List, I'm unsure whether custom Bracers having the +8 Armor Bonus are allowed to have additional properties.

Here's the wording in question: AC Bonus - limit of +5 on a single item (+8 on normal Bracers). The crux of my confusion is the wording "normal Bracers". The most restrictive interpretation would be that a +8 Armor Bonus is only allowable on Bracers with no other properties.

I believe normal means regular nwn bracers, rather than the CEP variant bracers. The normal NWN bracers give armor type AC bonus, while the CEP ones give one of the other types of AC bonuses, such as shield (you can find one of these in game actually), natural, dodge, ect.

Ah hah! Normal pertains to NWN vs CEP. Thanks for clearing this up for me (and so timely for that matter.... almost like IM'ing).

MJ is correct. "normal" does refer to the standard NWN bracer item type. You can add other properties with that for bracers, if you want to and have gp value to work with.

Just to highjack a thread with a similar question.... ... only the bracer (shield) is noted in the FAQ Sticky as restricted... does this mean that bracers with the other AC properties that MJ mention can be used (dodge, natural) but with a maximum +5 AC bonus (and other properties, value permiting)... but only the default bioware Bracer (armour type AC) can have up to +8 AC (and other properties, value permitting).... ....

The reason I'm asking is for AC stacking purposes... armour AC (from bracers/cloaks/armour overlaps but does not stack), dodge bonuses always stack (to the 20 cap), shield bonuses stack (though the only source I've found are all shields) and so does natural (to the 20 cap, to my knowledge and normally found on amulets).... .... effectively meaning a +5AC stackable AC type bracer + other AC type equipment (namely a +8 full plate) [[total AC = 13AC]] will be a much better more valued addition then just a +8 armour bracer (that overlaps the full plate) [[total AC = 8]].... ... I can't seem to get my meaning across but something just seems "wrong" here.... ... I think it has something to do with the overlap of bracer AC and Armour/torso AC thus negating the AC of the poorer of the two items but able to use all other properties..... vs ..... being able to stack the AC types for a better overall AC bonus and use of all the other properties of the two items.... .... ...


I really confused myself there, but it makes sense in my head.. I hope I got my meaning across clearly .... just can't think straight today...



Screaming child + wife monster nagging + lack of sleep + quiting smoking + work stress + abscence from Aenea = Rusty's worst headache in YEARS..

FYI - Dodge is the only one that stacks. The others taake highest value and use that.

A few things off there.

AC from the armor you wear (as well as shields you use) is base AC, which is different from bonus AC. Bonus AC is always a special property on an item. Bonus AC will always stack over the armor/shield's base AC. You will also get your base armor/shield AC + your bonus AC numbers stacked together.

Bonus ACs will not always stack with themselves though. Only dodge AC will stack with itself. For every other type, the better value is the value used.

Armor and bracers give bonus Armor type AC. Shields give bonus shield AC. Boots are dodge, amulets are natural. Rings, cloaks, helm, belts, gauntlets and weapons are bonus deflection. This is for base NWN items though... there are CEP variants of those items which give different types of bonus ACs, but they are for the most part prohibited for voucher items last time I checked.

Spells also give a specific type of bonus AC. Mage armor, epic mage armor, ice armor, stone armor, and holy vestment (when cast on armor/robes) are bonus armor AC. Shield, tempests protective gale... deflection. Barksin, natural. Holy vestment when cast on a shield gives bonus shield AC. Spells, like bonus AC on items are subject to stacking rules.

There's another type of AC, but comes from class abilities/feats/skills, not from spells/items bonuses. These stack, not sure if there's a +20 cap to it though. RDD (not dragonsoul, dragonsoul gives bonus dodge AC) bonuses, PM bonuses, expertise/improved expertise, armor skin feat. Tumble skill also gives bonus AC. For every 5 pts of -base- tumble skill, you get +1 AC.

Divine shield, while a feat, gives dodge AC... and stacks, up to the +20 dodge AC limit. I believe that the warblade of torgat PrC's abilities also give a dodge bonus, but I'm not certain for that one.

Ok.... so imagine we have a set of full plate with a base AC of 8 and a bonus of +5AC (armour) ... we end with 13AC ... correct ? .... ....

Now we have a bracer with 1AC and a bonus of +8AC (armour) ... we end with 9AC .... correct? .... ...

Now we equip both... we only have 17AC ... (not 22AC, because although the base types stack the bonuses do not, they use the higher value) .... correct? ... ....

So now we get a bracer with 1AC and a bonus of +5AC (dodge) ... 6AC ... and we put on that and our original 13AC fullplate ..... .... the bases stack and so will the bonuses ? ? 19AC .... two points higher then the "better unlimited AC bracer" correct ? ...

The "limit-breaker" normal +8AC bracers seem far inferior then a limited +5AC cep-dodge bracer, considering that both could be identical in every other respect ....


Is that making my point any clearer or am I missing something obvious ?
Why does this just seem "wrong" .... ... ?



Cups of tea do wonders for the mind..... but I'm still confused here....

Um... did MannyJabrielle just say all that off the top of her head? It's all correct! Outstanding summary. Just to complete the AC roundup:

Monk's special AC bonus from Wisdom (when wearing no armor nor shields) is stackable Natural AC.

The Mounted Combat feat ~probably~ grants additional Dodge AC from the Riding Skill (after subtracting 10, rolling a 1d20, and finally dividing by 5.)

I'm not sure where you're going with that Rusty -

As far as I can tell, the maximum armor from Full-Plate is +13 (8 base +5 bonus= +13 AC) Since bracers give an armor bonus and have no base AC, they would change that to (8 base from full-plate + 8 bonus on bracers = +16 AC) There's no better combination at all with the current rules in place.

However, yes, in theory, on it's own, a Dodge AC boost would trump the Armor AC boost by 2 (+5 Armor, +5 Dodge, +8 base =18) however, if one is already meeting the +20 dodge boost, there's no benefit.

Bracers don't have a base AC, they are strictly bonus AC. Only shields and armors have base ACs.

The idea of dodge bracers is moot though... I have the toolset open right now... there's no dodge bracers. Only normal NWN bracers and the CEP shield bracers.

Meh... it doesn't matter ..... I think I'm too tired to be getting whats in my head onto the keys correctly.... .. .. thanks for trying to help though.... I'll think on it overnight, and see what the 4hrs from now brings (the morning).... ... ...

And MJ's post above kinda throws the whole thing out anyway.. thanks for checking... I didn't even think to go and have a play with the toolset... must be really really tired.... .... ....

Just throwing in a little mechanics talk...

Bracers vs. Armor

bracers of full plate armor (+8 AC) + base = AC 18
full plate armor (+8 AC) + base = AC 18

bracers of full plate armor + full plate armor + base = AC 18 (armor bonuses do not stack, no benefit from bracers)

bracers of full plate armor + full plate armor +5 + base = AC 23 (still doesn't stack, no benefit from the bracers)

I'm pretty sure that the basic AC provided via Full-Plate is unaffected by the bonuses. Thus, (assuming Base is the 10 you start with automatically, unbuffed etc)

Base(10) + Full Plate Armor( + Bracers of Full Plate Armor( = 26

Unless that is, of course, you scripted it to do otherwise...

Armor provides an "armor bonus". Your basic leather armor grants a +2 armor bonus. Your leather armor +3 grants a +5 armor bonus. The "AC Bonus" that can get added to armor is basically just an extension of the "armor bonus" the armor itself grants.

Bracers provide an armor bonus, which is the same exact type as regular armor (or magical armor), so they don't stack. Bracers just provide the additional armoring without spell failure, skill penalties, extra weight, or limits to Dex-to-AC.

bracers of leather armor are inexpensive, so you could purchase a pair (and a suit of normal leather armor) in game. Put on the armor, check your AC. Put on the bracers at the same time...you won't see a difference. Remove the armor and just use the bracers...you won't see a difference (unless you have a really high Dexterity modifier, in which case the bracers alone will give you a higher AC since you'd get your full Dex mod added to your AC).

AC stacking/overlapping is one of the most confusing parts to working with magical items. Really, it boils down to one rule: AC bonuses of the same type do not stack (with the exception of dodge bonuses)...they overlap and the one with the highest bonus is the one that is used (the lower one is ignored).

As far as items go, they provide the following AC bonus types:

Armor bonus (sources: armor and magical bracers)
- "I am surrounded by something tougher than my skin to stop enemy weapons."
Shield bonus (source: shields)
- "I hold something in front of me as a barrier to protect me."
Natural bonus (source: amulets)
- "My skin is now tougher."
Dodge bonus (source: boots...and the only stacking type)
- "Are you saying I can dodge bullets?"
Deflection bonus (source: helmets, rings, cloaks, belts, held items)
- "I'm saying that when you are ready, you won't have to."

Hope this makes it a little easier to work with when managing your magic items and designing your own via custom rewards.

Armor bonuses and armor base are two different things. Base + Bracers of full plate armor + plain full plate = 26 ( 10+8+8 ) Bonuses are always added to base, and actual armor counts as a base. If you were to put on leather armor and bracers of leather armor, you would see a difference, just not if the leather armor already has +2 bonus to it

I just wrote up a complete summary of AC and how it works in NWN in the game mechanics forum

Thanks a ton. I finally know what touch-attack AC is LOL

Well, wouldn't you know? I tested this and proved myself wrong. Looks like BioWare messed up another D&D mechanic when making NWN...

Which also means all those armor bracers are way underpriced, since their usefulness has just increased (in my mind) greatly. I'd been under the impression they worked like D&D. *sigh*

Will the price scale? +8 bracers already sell for almost 100 times more than full plate armor depending on one's appraise skill.

MannyJabrielle wrote:Will the price scale? +8 bracers already sell for almost 100 times more than full plate armor depending on one's appraise skill.

I don't know yet. Don't have the toolset open at the moment, and haven't decided if I'm going to make any changes (or if I do, exactly what I'd change).

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Well, wouldn't you know? I tested this and proved myself wrong. Looks like BioWare messed up another D&D mechanic when making NWN...

Which also means all those armor bracers are way underpriced, since their usefulness has just increased (in my mind) greatly. I'd been under the impression they worked like D&D. *sigh*

Just a note here:

1. I would hope the prices do not get altered... as Manny stated the higher bonus bracers are already extremely expensive and level capped to boot.

2. High dex builds rely on their dex bonus too much to make wearing high
base armor viable, so the bracers plus base armor combination will
really only be seen on characters that choose armor and dont have high
dex (so it isnt a case of there being no dex penalty + base armor value + higher bracer armor bonus. its just the base armor + bracer bonus). The only bracers that really gain benefit from this particular mechanic are the ones with a greater than +5 armor enhancement bonus.... anything +5 or below can be gotten with magical armor/robes. Considering they are level capped, and quite expensive already, I dont see a need for alteration, honestly.

Cool... I believe that whilst possibly opening an entire can of worms, I have at least got something about my point out... it just seemed "wrong" last night, although I couldn't put my finger on it.... ... looks as though we have found the cause of my "wrongness sensor".. ... I knew something wasn't right.... .... ...


Though I'm still confused with AC ... ... Off to read the MJ AC thread I think.....

I gotta go with dave on this one, that the bracers are pricey enough now! Took some of my pcs many, many, many moons to save the gold to get some, not to mention tracking the darned things down! I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it!