Apr. 13, 2010: Priest Granted Spells & The Dark Realm

I just started work on overhauling the granted spells that deities provide to their priests. I'll be replacing the "spell items" with feats that are granted automatically on leveling up as cleric or druid.

Each cleric or druid will be able to gain the following feats, usable once per day:
Divine Granted Spell I (gained at 3rd level)
Divine Granted Spell II (gained at 6th level)
Divine Granted Spell III (gained at 10th level)
Divine Granted Spell IV (gained at 14th level)
Divine Granted Spell V (gained at 18th level)

The exact effects will vary with the priest's patron deity.

This change will do a few things. It'll spread out the gaining of granted spells so that certain priesthoods aren't "front-loaded" (and have something to look forward to later), it makes it so that each granted spell doesn't need it's own item+script (saving three "resource spots" per granted spell), and it makes things easier on my end if I don't have to think about granted spells when it comes to characters re-leveling, reincarnating, or ascending.

This change will require a hak update, but first I need to complete work on my end:
2da updates (class_feat_cleric.2da, class_feat_druid.2da, feat.2da, spells.2da)
- 5 feat icons
- re-scripting 100 granted spells (combined in 5 scripts)

Not sure when this change will take place but it'll be in the next week or so. I'm trying to get time-consuming tasks done before the twins are born in a few weeks.

Edited to add: Oh, and for those granted spells that cause damage, pretty much all of them will have level caps removed (for example, an epic level Torchbearer (cleric of Conflagral) will see some very nice results with the granted spell version of firestorm). Other granted spells may last a little longer or have higher save DCs (technically, all will belong to the Conjuration school, should priests be interested in taking on a Spell Focus feat for these).

I'm also getting much closer to opening up The Dark Realm for higher level characters. I'm just finishing up encounters and critters.

Oooh exciting!

Awesome
Now Amaterasu will actually have something to beat on for more than 5 rounds

Woo hoo, cleric sub-feats finally going in...... ... and the dark realm portals open to the world, woo hoo.... .... ((are you still accepting entries for the dark realm or is the deadline well and truely past it ?)) ....

Awesome! Just two questions...

First, how will this be implemented on already existing clerics?

Second, are the spell effects being changed at all in the process?

RustyDios wrote:Woo hoo, cleric sub-feats finally going in...... ...
and the dark realm portals open to the world, woo hoo.... .... ((are you
still accepting entries for the dark realm or is the deadline well and
truely past it ?)) ....

You can still send in areas for the Dark Realm, if you like.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Awesome! Just two questions...

First, how will this be implemented on already existing clerics?

Second, are the spell effects being changed at all in the process?

1. I'll give existing clerics an extra re-level scales.

2. A few of them will get removal of duration or level-based damage caps. Asis' clerics' feat-granted heal & mass heal spells will now do straight damage to undead (3 per caster level). One or two might bypass spell resistance. Nothing game-breaking, since they're limited to 1 use per day. I'll probably add a post somewhere after everything is in-game and finalized with the info (it is 100 granted spells, after all).

One powerful one to take note of that I just finished coding 10 minutes ago: water of the depths, the 18th level one for Harcorth. It's a single-target drowning spell that overrides spell- and item-based water breathing abilities (the only defense is a good Fortitude save or being a water sub-race).

Just because it's the one that really pertains to myself...

Mystara (as the website currently states):
Level 17: disjunction

Will the lv17 Disjunction be a "beholder-style" strip of all magical effects or standard Mords ?

Also as thus only Mystaran and Torgat Clergy have any reason to really go above 20th (At 30th level, evocation spells can no longer harm Mystaran, ~ Starting at 5th level (and every following 5th level up to 25th), the Torgator can cast true strike once per day.).... other then for normal/standard cleric stuff at the higher levels.... is it possible to add something for the higher clergy levels (possibly at some point in the future).. ?

... After all I could see the gods as wanting to, "reward" their most loyal followers.....

RustyDios wrote:Will the lv17 Disjunction be a "beholder-style" strip of all magical effects or standard Mords ?

Same as mordenkainen's disjunction.

RustyDios wrote: is it possible to add something for the higher clergy levels (possibly at some point in the future).. ?

Possible, yes.

Will the new abilities be subject to interruption as per normal spells?

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
One powerful one to take note of that I just finished coding 10 minutes ago: water of the depths, the 18th level one for Harcorth. It's a single-target drowning spell that overrides spell- and item-based water breathing abilities (the only defense is a good Fortitude save or being a water sub-race).

Really? Does it at least have an effective spell level or spell school so immunities to magic or magic absorption can affect it?

If not, I certainly hope there are plans to give all casters similar abilities. Otherwise I am glad it follows the magical mechanics of other spells.

Will the new abilities be subject to interruption as per normal spells?

I certainly hope so.

Dark Realm should now be open...assuming you or someone in your party has equipped a certain item.

The only clues I'll give for getting in:
1. A place to buy teleportation magic.
2. Previous entry into a part of the Dark Realm.
3. Something with Fiendish writing.

Do the granted spells have a spell level?

Also, I'm confused about why all granted spells would be in the conjuration school. Being able to get one spell focus that benefits all of them doesnt seem quite right.

As for the Dark Realm being open, Huzzah!

The granted spells technically have spell levels, but they are more feats that "spells".

I made them all conjuration simply because I had to pick 1 school, and figured the "calling forth magic from a divine source" fit conjuration best.

Yes, a fire one could be evocation while a healing one could be conjuration or necromancy, but all 100 granted spells (5 granted spells, 20 deities) are actually only 5 feats, with different effects determined by the scripting and not the 2da files.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:The granted spells technically have spell levels, but they are more feats that "spells".

I made them all conjuration simply because I had to pick 1 school, and figured the "calling forth magic from a divine source" fit conjuration best.

Yes, a fire one could be evocation while a healing one could be conjuration or necromancy, but all 100 granted spells (5 granted spells, 20 deities) are actually only 5 feats, with different effects determined by the scripting and not the 2da files.

I could understand the "feat not spell" stance if they were epic magic.... or if PnP made granted spells work differently than regular spells... but thats all they are supposed to be... additional spells to expand a clerics spell list that are "specifically themed" for the source of their power.

One spell focus feat empowering a slew of granted spells that have effects from varied schools? Thats a bit much...

It also sounds like these ones will bypass spell defenses. There are a number of reasons I think that is a poor choice, as non-epic spells should all follow the same mechanical conventions regardless of source. It also sounds like you are saying that the checks for spell level and school are not in the scripts, but based on the .2da files. If that is the case, then I am forced to ponder why in the past script alterations were made for things like checking spell resistance or immunities....

Five once per day spells at best really isn't a slew though, and only one priesthood has all 5 spells as offensive spells. A good majority of the spells are buffs or non-save effects.

Slew, 5, its a bit much whatever your pleasure for numbers. It also screws clerics who select a spell focus school other than conjuration when their granted spells would normally be part of that focus school.
Its bad on both fronts.

Which happens how often? Cleric's aren't lacking in save spells, but they also don't have a whole lot either and quite honestly they don't have enough where it's gamebreaking that they don't have it. Nor am I really seeing how this is 'screwing' clerics, especially when it's for at most 5 spells at 1 use a day each, and on average, a given deity's granting 2 attack spells (and that's not even taking into account if those spells are save-spells or not)

where is the limitation on how many spells have to be included or not included in the proper school for it to be bad enough to fix?

1?

5?

2?

It doesnt matter how often or how many spells are affected. None should be.

Maybe this issue could be resolved with a simple name change.... instead of calling these abilities "Granted Spells" we call them "Divine Granted Powers".... the way I see them is they are a little gifts from your diety for being a member of their clergy .... ...

The problem I think comes in the way they have been presented... I quite like the fact that these "are not quite normal spells"... Aenea has a unique deitific stance to standard Faerun, the point that its clergy get a "little extra" really doesn't tone a problem to me.... none of the "spells" are overtly overpowering, there is no pushing the power of clerics past that of say wizards of aenea (which do get alot of extra love, not normally present for other classes).....

At 1/day I don't see this as gamebreaking either Dave. The other thing, does Spell Focus even work with these feats ? ....

... So lets see this from an in-game perspective.... your happy little priest is involved in a battle, low on defense spells, his limited array of attack spells are gone, health is dropping away..... suddenly a little miracle from his diety happens, an effect that only the priesthood can conjure.. "a divine spell has been cast".. the power for it (and the point is doesn't follow normal rules of Magics) are coming directly from an Aenean deity .....
.... With the powers deities should have to shape the world, is this gamebreaking ?....

Cool.

So now granted spells arent spells, theyre divine powers in addition to the deity specific abilities.

Cuz if they arent spells, then there is no need to consider how they break the consistency of the mechanics that all other spells are beholden to.

Why dont we just take it to its logical conclusion and say that divine magic isnt spellcasting at all? Then we can monkey around with the mechanics for that too, cuz they wont be spells anymore.

Forgive my sarcasm if you can, and I apologize for caring so much about consistency in mechanics. I have a pet peeve about things feeling cobbled together and being clunky. I guess I prefer to have such things fixed and streamlined than to justify the clunkiness. My bad.

Okay... here's a line from the nwnwiki which I think we should look at for this case (the original problem being the ""one spell focus feat empowering a slew of granted spells that have effects from varied schools? Thats a bit much..."" )

Spell focus does not apply to spells that are granted as special abilities. sourced from here

Are these granted spells classed as special abilities of the cleric ?

I'm looking into what the actual in-game effects on the spells given would be at the moment...

.... ... please note that several of the "granted spells" are NOT spells at all (well not found anywhere else at any rate) such as Ragnor's Lv18 "insanity"... Prizimal's 3rd "moon ray", 6th "sun ray" and 9th "sun sword"... Lysis' 10th "kiss of lysis" and 18th "Lysis' blessing" .... Harcoth's 18th "water of the depths"... conflagral's 18th "great retribution" ... ..

. ... which is why I thought of these as "granted by the gods" ... not mearly "granted spells".... ....

I too like having the same rules applied throughout, otherwise what's the point in rules in the first place? .... so if there is to be a game-mechanic issue found here, we do need to get it sorted before it becomes a problem ....


And I agree that things should be fixed instead of "swept under the carpet" like my previous suggestion........ further invest req'd... ...

One other thing I was thinking of is why you asked if the granted spells have a spell level ? To my knowledge spell level is used for determining spell save DC's and level dependent damages... ... in that case the excerpt below is from the website:

Granted Spells:

Granted spells are given to clerics by their deity. Such spells usually become more difficult to resist as the cleric gains levels: the save DC for each is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.

... and I'd assume the spell level is the maximum level of castable spells for the level it's been granted at ( 3=2nd level spells, 6=3rd level spells , 9= 5th level spells, 14= 7th level spells, 18= 9th level spells ) .... ....

Issue with granted spells not being considered spells is that they are based off, if not a direct translation of granted spells from PnP and most of them are actual canon spells. Some of them being unavailable to other casters isnt a real solid reason to say they arent spells. Theyre divine magic that use the mechanics of normal spells... at least most do, and all of them should.

NWNwikki may state the condition of vanilla NWN, but remember that is based on biowares expression of the rules. It happens that the D&D system did allow for spell focus and such to work with granted spells and even spell-like abilities.

As for spell level, its also important for spell defenses like globes of invulnerability, spell mantles, or spell level immunities (like golems, rakshasa and demiliches have). These abilities are a major pain for casters to deal with by design. Theyre supposed to be... but if you start handing out magic abilities to some casters that dont require any investment (other than levelling up) that totally bypass such things... you defeat the purpose of the defenses, and the casters who dont get such things are effectively penalized in class balance considerations.

The other thing we could do is make these as Divination spells, after all they are divine in origin...

The only "offensive attack" spells normally found in the divination school are Feeblemind and the two Power Words. And only Feeblemind is affected by the focus feats .... ... And note these ARE NOT even on the cleric damn spell list anyway! Thus making the only reason a cleric should/would choose Spell Focus: Divination is to improve his granted spells ((and untill I went and checked, I didn't think there was ANY attacking divination spells ~ I thought they were all "information gained" based))... None of the other divination spells require a save DC (so unless you wanted to take a spell focus feat to boost the save DC of one spell, your unlikely to have ever wanted it or seen the need for it)... I also find it fitting that a focused diviner would get more out of his "Divine Granted Spells" .... ...

Is that a viable workaround ?
Does it make sense ?
Is it game balance breaking ?
Is it better then having them as conjuration spells where "Spell Focus : Conjuration" affects so many other spells and "Spell Focus : Divination" affects only three ?
Would it make more sense to have them as divination spells, as they are the spells granted by the gods for use 1/day ?


Is there a better way to implement them in the game... maybe so the script done some script forwarding ? Similar to this..

if (GetDiety = blah)
execute script (spellscript)

... which would make them work exactly how the base spell does, schools, saves, DC's, SR, Inate Spell Levels and all else...I think... ?



I'm just trying to think of possible solutions to the problem rather then complain about it.... ... ...


EDITED ABOVE :: Edited section is in RED

daveyeisley wrote:
As for spell level, its also important for spell defenses like globes of invulnerability, spell mantles, or spell level immunities (like golems, rakshasa and demiliches have). These abilities are a major pain for casters to deal with by design. Theyre supposed to be... but if you start handing out magic abilities to some casters that dont require any investment (other than levelling up) that totally bypass such things... you defeat the purpose of the defenses, and the casters who dont get such things are effectively penalized in class balance considerations.

In this case, I agree we need to know what the spell level is for the granted spells... .... which is likely to be the same as their "real-spell" counterparts (or it at least should be) .... ....

My issue wasnt about which school all of the granted spells were lumped into. It was the fact that they were all being lumped into a single school. Divination or conjuration doesnt matter.... its one school and will either be a bit much for some or crappy for others. The convention of having the spell's effect and flavor dictate what school it belongs to is already in place and should be maintained, regardless of where the spell energy is coming from.... be it divine or arcane.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what the major issue is here.

As far as I can tell, the old granted spells didn't take spell focuses into account. That the new ones will be affected by spell focus feats in conjuration is a benefit. Clerics are simply -not- 'screwed' by not taking conjuration focuses or having focuses in other schools. It actually comes off as a bit of an appeal to fear saying they're screwed.

And I don't see the 'logical' conclusion in that if 5 granted spells work differently than the vast majority of divine spells, then all the divine spells should then do so. That's a fallacy of composition actually.

I quite honestly do not see how the possibility that divine granted abilities of a incredibly limited nature make other spell casters "inadequate". There simply is no logical evidence supporting that claim.

I logged in on my Zolaras cleric and used a set of scales and didn't get the feat. (I'm level 4 at the moment, and the first should be gotten at level 3 as far as I know)

MannyJabrielle wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what the major issue is here.

As far as I can tell, the old granted spells didn't take spell focuses into account. That the new ones will be affected by spell focus feats in conjuration is a benefit. Clerics are simply -not- 'screwed' by not taking conjuration focuses or having focuses in other schools. It actually comes off as a bit of an appeal to fear saying they're screwed.

And I don't see the 'logical' conclusion in that if 5 granted spells work differently than the vast majority of divine spells, then all the divine spells should then do so. That's a fallacy of composition actually.

I quite honestly do not see how the possibility that divine granted abilities of a incredibly limited nature make other spell casters "inadequate". There simply is no logical evidence supporting that claim.

Awesome. Glad I make no sense to you, as per usual.

OKay ... so I'm still trying to think of something that would work ... to everybodies tastes ... as dave says for alot of the clerics they do get a varied mix of school types "thrown into one pot".... ... I honestly don't see the problem with this (but then I'm not a spellcasting balance issue guru, like dave is!) .... I trust his judgement if he thinks something is wrong and gamebreaking mechanics and balance wise, he has a good sense of "the greater picture", taking all classes and their respective abilities into account and seeing the flaws .... ...

Of the cleric spells given as granted spells I've put together a list, showing what school they should belong to and what effect the spell focus feats should have on the DC (if it has an effect)... ... I'm not sure it's going to help... But I'd like everyone to see what we're looking at here and the spells affected.... 5 spells, at 1 use a day of each, for your chosen diety, with multiple original schools condensed to only requiring one, granted by the gods....

Well thats either a lot kinder than I deserve, or scathingly sarcastic

Thanks for the chart at any rate. Im seeing the issue pretty plainly, myself. Wish other did too.

The overhaul will be an improvement, sure... what I was giving feedback for was to make it better and more balanced. Some folks either dont see the issue or dont give a crap. A shame.

I care alot about balance, but often I don't see the issues.... I care more so about this because I was part of the initial suggestion to change the granted spells and widgets etc into feats... I'm not 100% sure (because I can't remember or find the thread), but I believe the suggestion was mine initially.... I'd like to see it implemented fairly, balanced and conforming to the current rules.

The problem comes, I think, from the issue that HAD to assign a school of magic to the 5 feats used for the granted spells to work in this way ... he choose Conjuration ... ... Working the way they do the 100 spells are not spells at all, they are feats. Scripted spell-like feats. One Master feat for each of the levels (3,6,9,14,18), to use 1/day as an "activator" of the "spell".... then it's a scripting issue to find the users deity and "cast" the correct spell .... ...

... Now dependent on how has accomplished this the entire debate here could be moot.... .... use of the feat itself is a "Conjuration based spell-like ability"...

... the question is how is it that the ability actually manifests in the game... if it is all custom scripted, then given time and patience, I could see improving it to take the above into account so that each spell retains it's original school and is affected by it's respective feats... if it is just "spell hooks" and "execute script" commands then it may already keep the school... ... I'm not sure how it's done script wise, so I have no idea...

... ... and without some time, a few re-lev scales and the limited PC clerics I have (Gort and Mystara, but could possibly see the Andra, Jewel and Sorgath feats in action too), I have no way of testing what actually happens at the moment in-game.... ...

I think I'm going to sit out and await a response from on the topics presented above and see where we are with a little bit more info on how things work .... .. ...

I will admit my limited understanding of the code aspect is why I was unable to offer a concrete solution in addition to my feedback.

Not to mince words, so to speak, but even a "conjuration spell-like ability" is, for all intents and purposes a conjuration spell, with the mechanical exception of the components required to cast it... at least from a rules perspective.

Now I'm a bit miffed. It was bad enough that there were almost no harmful spells for clerics of Zolaras, but now there are none... I really appreciated having Enervation there... the feats you get now are entirely useless, and that I mean literally. All of the summoned creatures are useless hitting level 21 or so...

Zolaras clerics don't even get much to begin with either....

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Now I'm a bit miffed. It was bad enough that there were almost no harmful spells for clerics of Zolaras, but now there are none... I really appreciated having Enervation there... the feats you get now are entirely useless, and that I mean literally. All of the summoned creatures that way are useless hitting level 21...

Zolaras clerics don't even get much to begin with either....

I can totally feel that. Agreed. Death immunity and Drain immunity are powerful, but that seems like the sum total for Zolaras. Some offensive death magic would really fit, I think.

How about "wail of the banshee" ... ... as all zolaras clerics are girlies, and that is the most "girly-death" spell I can think of... rather fitting for them I think...

If I may suggest one then - Finger of Death.

Not too potent (especially at 1/day), but potent enough to be notable. Make it the 18th level one for all I care, but give me something to use against non-undead creatures.

Wail of the Banshee would be a bit much to ask for though....

Andra might be able to use a slightly more offensive spell as well. Perhaps, Creeping Doom?

Through all this discussion, guys, let's try to keep a few things in mind:

1) No matter what the "rules" say, this is 's world. He is free to change or manipulate whatever he wants whenever he wants, consequences be damned. It is really nice, though, that he is particularly considerate of our opinions and inputs, and devotes large chunks of time to maintaining happy balance for most of us.

2) Let's also not forget that the "rules" are not canon - they are changeable (yes, I did say that). The rules as they are set out in the numerous handbooks do work really well, but they are always open to change, particularly by the DM in charge of the game (House rules, anyone?). They are not like Christian canon, largely inflexible and set in stone; instead, they are more like really, really functional guidelines.

That said, we'll steer this back on topic (well, mostly!) --> I can dig the ramped-up granted spells - no matter how powerful an arcane caster is, they are still mortal. A cleric, on the other hand, has a deep and consistent connection to a greater power - it only makes sense to me that magic that comes from a deity would be harder to resist, dispel, or understand (by the norms of spellcasting [not playing by the rules, that sort of thing]).

I don't know, here's a thought - perhaps an hp penalty could be applied to the cleric upon using the granted favor? Nothing that would fubar any PC, but just enough to show that the power that was moving through the PC was pretty terrific, but was also pretty hard on the character. Or stat bonuses, or something along those lines - some sort of balancing device.

Hmm, while this is beneficial for clerics, in most ways, a select few clerics would indeed be abit left out compared to others, and I do see a rules issue here, a games mechanic issue there, and a bunch of other stuff... maybe we should try doing something... simpler?

After all while Aenea is a D&D realm, its not Aber-Toril, its not Orren, and its not Kryn, its not Planescape. It has its differences, some of them big, some of them making sense. Of course, with these changes divine magic does not make sense anymore, nor do anything related to divine magic, which equals a bit of a drawback. Plus giving some clerics significant power over others and others signficant powers over other classes, and others simply put weaknesses, as this will replace the older system with cleric spells which, while simpler, and cruddy, this is complex, and cruddy, which is not a benefit.

The old system was "simpler"? How do you figure hordes of separate items with their associated scripts, a number of which flat out didn't work, is simpler than a system that uses just 5 feats and 5 associated scripts?

What are these issues you are seeing specifically?

What makes you think divine magic now makes no sense anymore? Or anything relate to divine magic?

Could I get a DM to give my clerics a new set of relevel scales? Got the most recent haks that I missed somehow in the chaos of life.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Could I get a DM to give my clerics a new set of relevel scales? Got the most recent haks that I missed somehow in the chaos of life.

Sure thing. Hit up one of us next time you and we are on. If you arent sure which character might be a DM, use the "dmhelp" command.