May 15, 2010: Cure Spell Changes

Just starting to work on the coding for this, so the change won't be in until I put out a new updates hak...

The basic healing spells and some potions will be getting an upgrade. Asis clerics will be getting more of a healing boost than other priesthoods...they follow the goddess of healing.

For non-Asis casters:

cure minor wounds: heals 1 hitpoint (no change here)
cure light wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 5% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure moderate wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 10% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure serious wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 15% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure critical wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 20% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
heal: heals 2 hp/caster level or 33% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
- heal will also make a return to the druid's spell list

For clerics of Asis:
cure minor wounds: heals 1 hitpoint or 5% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure light wounds: heals 2 hp/caster level or 10% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure moderate wounds: heals 2 hp/caster level or 20% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure serious wounds: heals 2 hp/caster level or 30% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure critical wounds: heals 2 hp/caster level or 40% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
heal: heals 100% of target's max hitpoints

Against undead: Cure spells will hurt undead at the x/caster level amount (not percentage), and Asis clerics will get the same results as other clerics...this will be positive energy damage

Potions: Potions will cure wounds just like a non-Asis cleric. Asis potions will do just percentages...except for the "full heal" potions which I will still be limited to 500 points (making those clerics more potent than the potions).

Metamagic: The spells will still be able to be Empowered/Maximized via feats, even though they will no longer be based on die rolls:
Empower: total healing increased by 25%
Maximize: total healing increased by 50%

That sounds brilliant !!! ... Brings out Asis' clerics doing what they should...

How about spell's like Mass Heal and Healing Ray (Lesser, Normal and Greater)...

Will the Asis "Granted Spell" 's work in the same fasion ?

Will Greater Resoration's curing aspect be upped if cast by an Asis cleric ?


If cast from a scroll (or a custom item), will the same spell changes take effect ?

YAY! I can't even begin to express how exciting this is.

Sounds really really good

Ua's healing-only PC will be useful again! Yay!

Damage wise, the Asis granted spells already work like this (although at 3 points/level damage rather than 2). The one thing I noticed with the granted spells is they don't seem to be doing a touch-attack

A couple thoughts/questions.

1) How does Healing Circle fit into this? In the default method, Healing circle is basically a mass "cure light wounds" (1d8+1/leve). Will it be changed to still act as such (5% for non-asis, 10% for asis)?

2) The numbers used are great.... the X/level or percentage will be great for lowbies.... and for non-asis, 33% is not as potent as the asis 100% for heals, but still VERY good for a decent chunk of healing.

3) For attacking undead.... I'm a bit iffy on the numbers used for that. While the %'s even using the "general cleric numbers" will still be extremely powerful (5 cure criticals to take down a dracolich?).... it just seems a bit off that cure light wounds (1st level spell) will be just as effective as the 4th level spell (cure critical).

3A) Heal Vs Undead... Another reason why the numbers are iffy is just a gut reaction... if a dracolich reduces me down to 1d4 HP with harm, I kinda feel like I should be able to do the same back with heal, as it's the opposite of harm. I can totally see heal NOT doing that though... but I could see it doing 33%, even if I can't really see the cure X wounds spells doing a percentage.

4).... Zolaras clerics, I think they should get the "asis numbers" when casting the spells on undead (but still getting the "general numbers" when casting the spells for healing up).

5) greater restoration... I'm kinda fine with this being a cruddy "heal HP" spell... the HP healing is a very nice benefit, but the main purpose seems to be 'status healing' more than 'hp healing', so the HP I would see as a nice benefit, but not necessarily one of the cure-X-wounds line

6) Ambitious... but... a question about the "inflict" variants. Will these be getting a touch up after the heal spells by chance to reflect the duality of the spells? In particular... I was a bit dissapointed when I found my vampire ragnor cleric couldn't cast his inflct/harm spells on himself to heal up (seeing as when he tries to cast cures on himself, it's a touch attack spell rather than healing)... which leads to...

6A) Mass heal/Healing circle. How will these interact with vampire PCs? It'd really blow if in a party and a cleric of asis used mass-heal and blasted the heck out a vampire party member....

Awesome
One thing though, are potions other than full healing ones uncapped? In that case some of the most durable characters might get more out of the lesser potions.

Very nice time to bust out Bernes again and start offering out his services. I still have a bet to finish. Also when you say metamagic adds a certain percentage do you mean empowered cure moderate wounds would be 20%+25%= 45% or 20% x 1.25= 25%

A PC would need over 2,000 hps to get more than 500 points of healing out of a cure critical potion, no?

Still, I can see how a character with 1,000 hitpoints getting 250 back from a cure crit might seem... excessive. In the end, a build that can get over 1,000 hps probably had to sacrifice a bit in other areas, so it should balance out for the most part.

As for empowered and maximixed heal spells, I kind of hope the percentages are additive rather than multiplicative.

A maximized cure crit healing for 75% health would be a glorious thing. Maximized heal, even by a non-asis cleric, 83%!! Now you're talkin, aye?

If its multiplicative, and the increase is calculated after the initial heal is calculated, then the two are added together, it would make the metamagic feats kinda poopy... the percentage of increase would definitely need a boost in that case.

daveyeisley wrote:A PC would need over 2,000 hps to get more than 500 points of healing out of a cure critical potion, no?

Let's not forget a certain amulet and con increases from xp store.

I didnt mean to imply it couldnt be done, I was simply trying to underscore the rarity of that situation. Considering that rarity along with the sacrifices needed to reach those numbers, I didnt feel it was too horrible. Putting a cap on the cure potions could certainly be done.

Cure crit - 250max
cure serious - 200max
cure mod - 150max
cure light - 100max

or something like that

The amulet applies the HP as bonus HP, and I'm not 100% certain that heal spells/potions would recover any of the temp HP lost. Regen does, so the spells/potions might.

The constitution buys from Shae will be a sure way to boost those kinda HPs though. If you had a PC going maxed con, with a dragonsoul class that gave 4 con, +5 book, +20 from the store, +12 in gear, that'd be 1360 in con bonus HP, plus the character's class HD (barbarian, 480, 1840 con. 3680 HP with the amulet.... yeowza

edit, er... less? can't go pure 40 barb and have dragonsoul... But still, not THAT much less

MannyJabrielle wrote:The amulet applies the HP as bonus HP, and I'm not 100% certain that heal spells/potions would recover any of the temp HP lost. Regen does, so the spells/potions might.

The constitution buys from Shae will be a sure way to boost those kinda HPs though. If you had a PC going maxed con, with a dragonsoul class that gave 4 con, +5 book, +20 from the store, +12 in gear, that'd be 1360 in con bonus HP, plus the character's class HD (barbarian, 480, 1840 con. 3680 HP with the amulet.... yeowza

edit, er... less? can't go pure 40 barb and have dragonsoul... But still, not THAT much less

Yeah, it can be done. It will still be rare... and require big tradeoffs.

MannyJabrielle wrote:1) How does Healing Circle fit into this? In the default method, Healing circle is basically a mass "cure light wounds" (1d8+1/leve). Will it be changed to still act as such (5% for non-asis, 10% for asis)?

I'll have to modify that one, too. Thanks for the reminder.

MannyJabrielle wrote:3) For attacking undead.... I'm a bit iffy on the numbers used for that. While the %'s even using the "general cleric numbers" will still be extremely powerful (5 cure criticals to take down a dracolich?).... it just seems a bit off that cure light wounds (1st level spell) will be just as effective as the 4th level spell (cure critical).

The numbers for use on undead will be the straight 1/level ones, except for heal, which will do enough damage to leave the undead with 10 hitpoints (although a save can reduce this damage amount by half after it's calculated).

MannyJabrielle wrote:4).... Zolaras clerics, I think they should get the "asis numbers" when casting the spells on undead (but still getting the "general numbers" when casting the spells for healing up).

Zolaras clerics already get big bonuses vs. undead (various immunities and more powerful turning).

MannyJabrielle wrote:6) Ambitious... but... a question about the "inflict" variants. Will these be getting a touch up after the heal spells by chance to reflect the duality of the spells? In particular... I was a bit dissapointed when I found my vampire ragnor cleric couldn't cast his inflct/harm spells on himself to heal up (seeing as when he tries to cast cures on himself, it's a touch attack spell rather than healing)... which leads to...

Something is in the works for these as well.

MannyJabrielle wrote:6A) Mass heal/Healing circle. How will these interact with vampire PCs? It'd really blow if in a party and a cleric of asis used mass-heal and blasted the heck out a vampire party member....

The "mass" versions will turn into strictly "party benefit" spells, affecting only "normal" allies. I've got a couple of new "blast nearby undead with divine power" spells in the planning stages...but these won't be nice to "vampires in the party".

daveyeisley wrote:As for empowered and maximixed heal spells, I kind of hope the percentages are additive rather than multiplicative

Multiplicative.

Normal empowered cure moderate wounds basically goes from 10% to 12.5%.

Normal maximized cure moderate wounds basically goes from 10% to 15%.

Asis empowered cure moderate wounds basically goes from 20% to 25%.

Asis maximized cure moderate wounds basically goes from 20% to 30%.

Against undead, it will use the non-percentage based numbers, but those will still be increased by 25% or 50%.

The healing spells themselves will lose some oomph against undead, even as they gain healing power. But, I do have several new "blast the undead for clerics" spells in the works to more than make up the difference.

The new cure X wounds/heal spells work great for non-asis clerics now

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:

daveyeisley wrote:As for empowered and maximixed heal spells, I kind of hope the percentages are additive rather than multiplicative

Multiplicative.

Normal empowered cure moderate wounds basically goes from 10% to 12.5%.

Normal maximized cure moderate wounds basically goes from 10% to 15%.

Asis empowered cure moderate wounds basically goes from 20% to 25%.

Asis maximized cure moderate wounds basically goes from 20% to 30%.

Against undead, it will use the non-percentage based numbers, but those will still be increased by 25% or 50%.

The healing spells themselves will lose some oomph against undead, even as they gain healing power. But, I do have several new "blast the undead for clerics" spells in the works to more than make up the difference.

This more or less makes enhancing metamagic on healing spells useless, from what I can tell. Silent or still might be useful for memorizing them with spell slots that dont offer good healing spells on their level... but thats about it.

cure light wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 5% of target's max
hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure moderate wounds: heals 1
hp/caster level or 10% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure
serious wounds: heals 1 hp/caster level or 15% of target's max
hitpoints (whichever is greater)
cure critical wounds: heals 1
hp/caster level or 20% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is greater)
heal:
heals 2 hp/caster level or 33% of target's max hitpoints (whichever is
greater)

So, empowered cure light will heal ~6%, in a 3rd level slot, for which you cn just memorize cure serious for more than double the healing. Maximized cure light will do 7.5% in a 4th level slot, for which you can memorize a cure crit for almost triple the healing.

Empowered cure mod in a 4th level slot, 12.5% ...versus cure crit for 20% in the same slot.
Maximixed cure mod - 15% in a 5th level slot, versus a silent or stilled cure crit for 20%.

empowered cure serious in a 5th level slot get you ~18%, opposed to a silent or stilled cure crit for 20%.
maximized cure serious in a 6th level slot gets you 22.5% opposed to a heal spell for 33%.

empowered cure crit gets you 25% in a 6th level slot, whereas heal gets you 33%.
maximized cure crit in a 7th level slot gets you 30%, opposed to silent or stilled heal for 33%.

All the healing spells for both Asis and non-asis clerics are more efficient to cast at their innate spell level, or silent/stilled versions one level above (when there is no standard healing spell of that innate level).

Metamagic may still be good for other spells... but it is now effectively usesless for healing spells (other than silent or still spell). If I am missing something, let me know....

Just out of random curiosity, have the spell descriptions been changed to reflect this?

I'd have to say yes, the metamagics aren't practical for the spells if the numbers Dave has are correct.

On the otherhand, practical experience I have with my clerics is I've never used metamagics on the cure spells. I'll quickslot the spontaneous castings (which can't be meta'd), and use my slots for other spells, keeping healing power available w/o skimping on the stuff I use on a regular basis.

True, empowering or maximizing curing spells isn't particularly effective. I just left the option there for folks that might want to use up slots in levels 5, 7, 8, and 9 for healing.

Technically, now that the spells are percentage-based, empowering and maximizing shouldn't work at all (since those are supposed to be dice-based). I figured a modest increase in the total healed would still be nice after the base spells just got a big boost in scaling/power.

For level 5, 7, 8, and 9.... silent or still spell are the best feat options for healing spells.

I dont know if you remember, , but WAY back... we had a discussion about improving healing spells... and there was definite support for the direction you went, with making them % based... but also... there was suggestion/discussion/support for making the spells not be purely % based... but having a % component (so that high hps targets would still get worthwhile healing), and also a flat die roll based amount in addition so that low hp targets would benefit from solid healing (and also make metamagic still viable).

Combining those two components, would have, in my opinion, made for a near-perfect blending to accomodate all concerns.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
Technically, now that the spells are percentage-based, empowering and maximizing shouldn't work at all (since those are supposed to be dice-based). I figured a modest increase in the total healed would still be nice after the base spells just got a big boost in scaling/power.

Slight correction - Empower can be used on flat damage spells. Maximize cannot (obviously)

Now that the Heal spell is no longer Asis only, can we have it on custom items?

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Now that the Heal spell is no longer Asis only, can we have it on custom items?

My 2 cents: If the PC cannot cast the heal spell themself, having it on a custom item would give them a capability not intended for their build. The heal potions already flout this concept quite a bit, but at least they care single use and pretty expensive in quantity (and I do admit, it makes solo adventuring enjoyable, as without those potions soloing would be much more frustrating). Heal usage/day on a custom would be a bit much I think.
If the character can cast Heal, though, then its more just a matter of them getting a little more use of something they are built to do.

Cure critical is useful now, too, though perhaps not as good as the heal potions...

Take that as you will, just my personal thoughts.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:Now that the Heal spell is no longer Asis only, can we have it on custom items?

Nah, we'll leave it as is for now.