[Build Challenge]

Elhanan wrote:Personally, I could never choose to lower INT to 4, as Skill Pts are far too important to me; perhaps Languages, too.

Yeah, I'm with you on that--I couldn't do it either(all my PCs on average all starts out with minimum 10-14).

If Rusty wanted, he could always invest in Lady Shea's stat buy and raise T'setnoc's Intelligence--then, when satisfied, use a relevel scale OR Reincarnation-- and get more skill points that way.

RustyDios wrote:Can anyone confirm the +4AC "Other" Draconic Armour RDD vs. +5AC "dodge" Draconic Luck Red Dragonsoul issue ?

RDD's Draconic Armor is a Natural Armor Bonus AC, but slightly different, in that it stacks with other Natural Armor Bonuses - according to the nwnwiki.

The Dragonsoul's 'Draconic Luck' increases slightly by +1 up until level 10 where it becomes a flat +5 Dodge Bonus, according to the Front Page's Class Section.

I'd have to actually level up a dragonsoul to be sure, and in-game, as the bonus is scripted and not in the build module.

So how do you get an INT as low as 4?

I didn't think that the engine would let you go less than the starting 8 with any attributes.

Ramana Jala wrote:
So how do you get an INT as low as 4?

I didn't think that the engine would let you go less than the starting 8 with any attributes.

Am guessing it is the combo of Half-Orc with Beastial penalties; a reason I have never chosen to play either.

Yeah, starting was 8, - 2 for half-orc, then -4 for beastial subrace (total 2) then +2 Int tome used = 4...

Angel of Death wrote:RDD's Draconic Armor is a Natural Armor Bonus AC, but slightly different, in that it stacks with other Natural Armor Bonuses - according to the nwnwiki.

The Dragonsoul's 'Draconic Luck' increases slightly by +1 up until level 10 where it becomes a flat +5 Dodge Bonus, according to the Front Page's Class Section.

RDD's armor is purely "other"(not "other natural") and as such, isn't a subject to any cap, which can be an important point for epic spellcasters.
It's "natural" only in name, probably for flavor

It's a thing to consider for divine shield users as well, who can easily reach the +20 dodge bonus cap by pure charisma, not to count +5 on boots, +4 from haste, +4 from tenser's...

Elhanan wrote:Am guessing it is the combo of Half-Orc with Beastial penalties; a reason I have never chosen to play either.

I can see a fighting build doing great without skill points - if you get immunities and resistances to the level you don't need to worry about being hit
Otherwise that 8 AC and AoO elimiation from 40 tumble is IMO very much worth the 6 ability points(provided you're not a caster, in which case you need other skills anyway).

That's my mechanical perspective. Not that I haven't though about making a dumb orc good at nothing else but hitting things with a big club

Lasombra wrote:

Angel of Death wrote:RDD's Draconic Armor is a Natural Armor Bonus AC, but slightly different, in that it stacks with other Natural Armor Bonuses - according to the nwnwiki.

The Dragonsoul's 'Draconic Luck' increases slightly by +1 up until level 10 where it becomes a flat +5 Dodge Bonus, according to the Front Page's Class Section.

RDD's armor is purely "other"(not "other natural") and as such, isn't a subject to any cap, which can be an important point for epic spellcasters.
It's "natural" only in name, probably for flavor

Yeah...that was what I meant. Sorry if the way I wrote it confused you...

You do remember that, by the book, your INT 4 half-orc shouldn't hardly even be able to communicate in his own racial language(s), much less have the INT to learn other race languages? One could go so far as to grant him simplistic use of the language with which he was raised (orc or human, but not both), but to learn beyond that seems inconsistent.

A character with a low INT score like that would be about on the level of a dog, for communication skills. He'd understand the gist of the language of those he's familiar with (whether that be orc or human depending on his upbringing), and he'd be able to grunt or make some emotive sound in meaningful response.

I'm not really sure about the general INT level of your average half-orc, but this guy might even be the simpleton among them. I seem to recall that, customarily, for a character to even be able to speak just one childhood language very well, he is supposed to have an INT of at least 9-10.

Yes by the book...
"An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3."

Defending my actions at 1:30am, because I felt everyone was ganging up on me not RP'ing the low int, when your all not:

EDIT; Was going to take away the defending/rant, but thought I'd leave it in case anyone wanted to read it... ...

Sorry if I pushed a sensitive button, there!

I hadn't seen anyone else mention the inconsistency. I probably missed it, just popping in to toss in my two cents.

I like AoD's suggestion above, about getting your half-orc some more INT. If he's not actually supposed to be dumb as a rock, and with being an officer in his backstory he really can't be, not if he was successful anyway. For having been a general, if he were my toon, I'd compensate those racial stupidity traits with taking his INT up enough to make him suitably intelligent, at least up to a 10. And you get more skill points, too, from that. And he can speak properly, likely even both of his racial languages.

Of course it's up to each player individually, all I said was that it was inconsistent. Seems I was more right than I realized, as it's inconsistent that if he used to be a decent enough general, he probably shouldn't be INT 4 stupid and unable to speak properly, as the NWN Wiki says is customarily the case for an INT under 9. He would have had to make himself understood to his soldiers, and even if he started with all sorts of racial disadvantages, he would have had to overcome them to be capable of the communication and strategization required of command. Unless, of course, he simply killed his way into command and then stalled and failed and washed out because of mental insufficiency to the task, as you did say he 'used to be' a general.

Merely some opinions and ideas, and not meant to be the canon police, in any way! My mind just sometimes takes to thinking about how to match a build to a story....

Ramana Jala wrote:...Unless, of course, he simply killed his way into command and then stalled and failed and washed out because of mental insufficiency to the task, as you did say he 'used to be' a general...

I've read the description of a certain axe held by said creature. It looks like he really did kill his way into command.

I recall the story of the Half-Ogre with a Wand that had the command word, "uh', as this was the one word he would be sure to use when trying to remember....

A few inconsistencies are fine. They happen. My wolfblood shifter has rather decent intelligence score, but I still play him as I originally envisioned him, happy-go-lucky old burnt out hippie dog who is well.... dumb

The mental stats can be difficult to roleplay out as well, and should be simply rough guidelines outside of their mechanical uses. I love my number crunching to be sure, but other times I'm interested in the character, not the character's numbers.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:

Ramana Jala wrote:...Unless, of course, he simply killed his way into command and then stalled and failed and washed out because of mental insufficiency to the task, as you did say he 'used to be' a general...

I've read the description of a certain axe held by said creature. It looks like he really did kill his way into command.

Yes, and the abilities of said axe have also meant that since it came into his possession no-one has been able to influence his mind in any way...
See... this is how we turn a "build challenge thread" into a "build challenge and better theme and backstory thread".... all points to consider with the renewed love for him (which in turn was caused by the updated bard songs and want to improve this PC)....

.... And by pointing out the flaws in a good constructive manner, I've learned a tip or too for how to RP him as well as make a better build ... win-win for us all, so we ( I ) grow, learn and improve !

Sorry about the rant/defending a point ... it wasn't necessary, but it did touch a nerve, however more in the "I'm annoyed at not being a good enough player to play this correctly" reason then in any anger/other/attack on you issue... you have helped me improve my game, which improves the experience for you and me.... sometimes its better to hold a good constructive criticism and think on how to improve oneself before going on a rant at someone else....

I'll leave the comment in spoiler tabs so new readers can follow the thread okay, but I'm really sorry if it comes across as being aimed directly back at anyone... really think that was cranky tiredness partly speaking ... which isn't really normal behaviour for me either



Okay putting the thread back on topic... any more build tweaks/suggestions ?

A_Vagabond wrote:

Elhanan wrote:Can Martial weapons be taken on the Monk lvl? Not really needed as it is the last choice, but I prefer longbows almost every time.

Also, alignment will be problematic unless changed to L/N, I believe.

No. You need simple weapons to qualify for martial, and neither Druid nor monk get that.

Was reading over older posts. You don't need simple weapons for martial weapons. Neither of those two feats have any prereqs. Exotics is the only one and that's only a +1BAB prereq. You might have been thinking about armors. You need light armor to qualify for medium, and medium to qualify for heavy. Monks can choose simple or martial weapon feats as a general feat. It's simply druids and shifters who can't because those two feats are not in their general feats lists by design.

NWN - especially its' PWs - doesn't offer much besides mechanics for stats. Also, it's not quite possible to RP the godly mental stats we can reach here; since a human of 18+ int is considered a super-genius, what would a 50+ char be like? You can't really fake mental stats to such a degree as physical ones, especially since charisma and intuition in truth aren't even mental. You can say "ok, I lift this dracolich", but you can't say "i intuit this wouldn't be a beneficial thing to do" if you have no idea as a player if that's true. And even if you could, it's more calculation than intuition anyway, which IRL usually isn't immediately seen as beneficial from perspective of "regular thoughts"(to put it simply).

Mechanics vs. RP will never reach a good balance here.

From my experience, I really wanted to RP that high charisma of Amaterasu(used to be 52), but how do I do that? Begin every interaction with "//ok, just so you know, you're supposed to be in awe at her every word, fall to the knees and praise her name every two rounds and at the end of the conversation swear eternal loyalty"? I don't have that charisma as a human, yet I do as a PC. I can't RP that for the life of me, the most I can do is give her a description saying something to the effect of: "uber-sexy and what-not". Also, that charisma doesn't provide her with anything other than combat prowess. No price negotiation, no way to sway an army with a single look, no way to seduce the enemy to submission - such cool things would be entirely possible in DnD, and a character with over 50 charisma would almost never find anyone able to resist their charm. But it's not implemented at all, and for the most part doesn't even depend on the player, making this nothing else but a number in a player's head.

In Aenea a PC with 50+ cha can even regularly hear from passerbys "go away x, nobody wants you here". Might as well have them talk that way to evil gods

From this perspective, as ridiculous as an orc general with 4 INT is, I think it's possible lol.

Lasombra wrote:
In Aenea a PC with 50+ cha can even regularly hear from passerbys "go away x, nobody wants you here".

Is this character of evil alignment? An evil character with high CHA won't get any love from the commoners.


But as to RPing, it is helpful if there's some indication made to give the other player(s) a better idea of what is hard to sufficiently express by typing the short paragraphs we're limited to. In my previous PW, one could roll a specific stat at any time via a VC command, and it would be visible to the other players in the area. It was used a lot to give others a clue about one's character attributes. In Aenea, I'm not sure if you can roll with specific stats, I think the dicebag only rolls an abstract number. But you could get some kind of quick procedure, like saying you're going to roll CHA, then rolling a 1d20 and stating the sum with the CHA.

BTW, I understand the insufficiences of the mechanics, for being able to perfectly match the numbers to one's character. When I built my swiss-army knife jill-of-all-trades scout, there wasn't any room left to assign the CHA that my ranger/rogue/sd deserved by backstory. She's a refined noble lady by birth, a previous courtesan and masseuse, an enthusiastic follower of Jewel and the Way of Pleasure in all things, and so lovely and charming, that if I had the points, I'd give her high CHA. But I don't have the points to make her the competent scout that she is, and also put points in CHA that's unrelated to anything but how charming she can be. I've augmented her by a gift of a high-CHA Tome, and CHA on her clothing, and plan to get her CHA augments up to the limit, so her CHA number will look a bit more like it should. But still, by backstory she should have the CHA of a Bard. In my mind I reconcile this number issue by telling myself that she may not look so cute covered in enemy guts, but she cleans up and looks astounding when she puts on her silk dresses, changing from a business-like scout to a lady.

And as to the player being able to play the stats, that can get humorous. My scout, she has excellent sense of direction.... better than me. So sometimes I ask for help, telling to another player that my scout has a better sense of direction than me, so could you tell me OOC which way I'm supposed to be going as I've forgotten.

So, please do continue to give indications of your character's personality to the other players, via RP if possible or via tells if not. I totally appreciate knowing, in order to respond appropriately.

Ramana Jala wrote:
BTW, I understand the insufficiences of the mechanics, for being able to perfectly match the numbers to one's character. When I built my swiss-army knife jill-of-all-trades scout, there wasn't any room left to assign the CHA that my ranger/rogue/sd deserved by backstory. She's a refined noble lady by birth, a previous courtesan and masseuse, an enthusiastic follower of Jewel and the Way of Pleasure in all things, and so lovely and charming, that if I had the points, I'd give her high CHA. But I don't have the points to make her the competent scout that she is, and also put points in CHA that's unrelated to anything but how charming she can be.

Not even if you save up your XP and buys charisma points from Lady Shea? (It may be slightly expensive, but totally worth it--500k per point)

Btw Charisma isn't just about physical beauty, it's also affects how a person treat others, etc.

Example: One person may have a high charisma and only an average physical look, but the same person is well spoken, charismatic, and all-around makes people want to follow them. A natural leader, whose force of personality attract others to idolize them.

Example2: Then there's that super gorgeous piece of eye candy which has a nasty personality, and is real bitch to everyone else. No one would want to be around such a person.

That is an option, yes, thanks. But not for the near future. If her CHA augments ends her up on an odd point, I might get one to round it off quick.

But her essential attribute is DEX, and I can't see me going for much CHA before I fill in all the DEX she can get (and after that, STR), so that will be a long while.

And the players I've been playing with have been graciously allowing me to play her as high CHA, so there's no great immediate need, especially mechanically.



(And yes, I understand that it's not about physical beauty, although she is very cute... it's about how charming she is. Which she's not really putting on when she's in a Ranger-Scout mode and combat situation, but turns on the charm when she's in her lady silks and mode.)

With the commoner responses in regards to cha vs alignment... it's highly abstract and not realistic.

Not all evil types wear a nametag that says "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm evil", just like not all good types wear tights and a cape and says "I'm here to save the day.

You could very well have a sociopath evil SOB who's highly charismatic, says and does the right things at the right time (and could be butt ugly as well) but only does so to further his own hidden agenda.... while conversely you'd have a really good guy at heart, who's probably damn good looking, but a total bore to talk to, and has a bad temper and gets into drunken bar room brawls every other day and breaks three people's noses a week.

Yep, commoner responses are very cool, but they aren't perfect in that respect.

As I've noted elsewhere about how wonderful they are for my Good Scout, but how inappropriately forward they are for my reclusive Neutral Wizard.

If the responses had a CHA check in with it, instead of apparently working only off of kill-count and alignment, then my low-CHA wizard might get the inattention that she deserves.

RP varies by the indv, and as Aenea is not on a RP server; no worries. And there was much rejoicing!

If the Beastial H-O starts as Bard 8/ Ftr 12; then adds the PrC in Epic, this will grant +18 BAB. Or Bard 12/ Ftr 8 will still be +17 BAB, but would offer a little better REF/ WILL ST, I believe.

However, recent tests show that even with max AC for a STR character, some of those Bosses are still going to be heavy hitters. I would suggest getting some more damage resist and reduction; more is better.