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HIPS/Imp. INV. vs True Seeing/Dispel INV.

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HIPS/Imp. INV. vs True Seeing/Dispel INV. Empty HIPS/Imp. INV. vs True Seeing/Dispel INV.

Post by Friko1986 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:14 am

Dear all,
I read a lot of wiki

But I dont know if True Seeing or some dispel INV. can brake HIPS/Imp. Invisibility

PC which use HIPS and than use Imp. INV hides better? (or Imp. INV and than HIPS)
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Post by Angel of Death on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:19 am

Probably not what you asked about....but...HiPS and Invisibility will always lose out to creatures/people with some form of True Sight, be it by innate abilities or them wearing an item...

If you're looking at a way to get True Sight on an item, you can always make an request to Squid Face or a grumpy old dwarf to see if they'll upgrade an item of yours. In most cases they do, as long you bring them what they ask for... Smile
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Post by Friko1986 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:46 am

You dont answer my question.

I want to know, if hiden char (HISP/Imp. INV or HIPS + Imp. INV.) can be seen somehow, by useing True seeing, or some for me unknow spell Smile
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Post by Ramana Jala on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:43 am


Yes, here in Aenea, True Seeing will see through Stealth/HIPS and all forms of Invisibility. That includes Improved Invisibility, although the displacement effect of this spell still keeps its effect of a miss chance.

I believe that True Seeing will also see through Greater Sanctuary but that spell will still prevent targeting.

Some other worlds may disable the ability of True Seeing to see through stealth/HIPS, as related at the wiki: True Seeing, but here in Aenea True Seeing does see through stealth.

There is no real advantage to using both Stealth (which is defined as having high Hide and Move Silently, with or without the HIPS ability), and an Invisibility spell together with it. (Except for the displacement effect of Improved Invisibility, that remains useful.)

There's really nothing one can do to hide from True Sighted hostiles, and one has to work that into one's combat strategies.

Even with Greater Sanctuary, although the hostile won't be able to target you, they can still rain down Area of Effect spells in your area that will affect you.

By the way, if the one wanting to see those that are invisible doesn't have or want to use a higher spell slot for True Seeing, one can use the lower level spell of See Invisiblity, although I believe that that particular one only sees through invisiblity and not stealth.


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Post by RustyDios on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:30 am

A hidden PC (from the Stealth action, which also includes HiPS -as this is just the ability to activate Stealth whilst being seen- OR from invisibility OR magical darkness OR sanctuary) can always be seen by True Sight.
The only thing True Sight does not pierce is actual obstructions to "Line of Sight" or ANY form of Concealment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stealth mode is a combination of the Hide and Move Silently skills.

It is opposed by Detect mode which is a combination of the Spot, Listen and Search skills.

The Search skill is not used for finding hidden creatures but more for hidden objects and traps. Whereas the Hide/Spot and Move Silently/Listen skills are directly opposed to each other and are used for finding creatures.

There are two types of Detect mode, Passive and Active, both are described in the link above, but basically passive is always active and is half as effective as the (activated) active mode.

You can fail in Stealth mode(which includes HiPS) by being EITHER seen OR heard, from failed checks OR True Sight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invisible creatures (or those under the effect of an Invisibility Sphere) cannot be found by using the Spot part of the detect mode but CAN still be heard by the listen check.

They could still be seen by True Sight OR See Invisibility.

Improved Invisibility offers a 50% concealment bonus at a longer duration then Displacement which CAN NOT be bypassed by True Sight, See Invisibility OR detect mode (?) .

BOTH invisibility AND improved invisibility (including the concealment) can be negated by the Invisibility Purge spell. Sidenote; The Displacement spell (and other forms of concealment) are not effected by this spell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Magical" Darkness offers a special form of blindness and invisibility to those in its effects and is countered by either True Sight or Ultravision. Invisibility AND Stealth and Detect modes still "function normally" under the effects of darkness; that is a can of worms I don't want to go into here.... ....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanctuary (and Greater Sanctuary) will make one immune to being directly affected by anything, however True Sight will still allow you to see a creature under the effect and open possibilities for indirect action.

I believe Stealth and Detect modes "function normally" for someone under the "lesser" Sanctuary effect. They can still be seen or heard but just not targeted. Under "Greater" Sanctuary detect mode does not work (you cannot "naturally" see or hear the creature), however True Sight will still allow you to see them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concealment is the trump card to True Sight however. Even though the creature can still be partially seen True Sight does not negate ANY form of concealment. It is NOT "x-ray vision".

And although concealment allows you to not be seen, you can still be heard and targeted normally, but the attacker might just purely "not hit" you. Concealment is partially negated by the Blind Fight feat (which also has minor effects on invisibility).

A player can only naturally acquire up to 50% concealment and only the highest current concealment bonus is used. It does not stack (other then the self-concealment feats, which increment in 10% steps upto the 50%).

I think I recall that it IS possible for a builder to script in upto 100% concealment for a creature .... ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Was that an acceptable answer to your question ?
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:40 am

Using invisibility (regular or improved) with stealth will not beat true seeing or tremor sense.

However, invisibility with stealth does negate the spot aspect of detection for stealth. Likewise, sanctuary/greater sanctuary negate the listen aspect of the detection check, as does having the silence effect upon you.

So those spells when used with stealth-mode can be an "enhancement" if trying to sneak past a baddie who's detection skills are a bit above your stealth skills.

For the baddies with tremor sense or uber-true seeing (there's two that I know of, maybe three) they can also see through greater sanctuary, absolutely no way to use stealth, mundane or magical, around them.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:52 am


MannyJabrielle wrote:
However, invisibility with stealth does negate the spot aspect of detection for stealth. Likewise, sanctuary/greater sanctuary negate the listen aspect of the detection check, as does having the silence effect upon you.
That's very interesting, but why not just use invisibility (or sanctuary) alone? How does using stealth with invisibility (or sanctuary) make invisibility (or sanctuary) any better?
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:09 am

See-Invisibility and high listen checks. Also, Invisibility Purge, as mentioned by Friko in the original post

The see invisibility spell does not spot stealthed creatures, just invisible ones. Invisibility purge strips away invisibility as well (and on a side note, it also kills the concealment effect from improved invisibility)

Invisibility makes you invisible, not silent. You can still be detected by the listen check while running around. That's where sanctuary comes in handy (short duration, but makes you silent, and I believe the will save is only done at time of casting if in view of the enemy).

Greater sanctuary... it trumps everything but tremor sense and uber-true seeing, so in that scenerio, the only advantage a HiPs stealther has over a GS user is number of uses per day (spell slot vs unlimited) and time to get 'hidden' (casting time vs instantaneous).
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Post by RustyDios on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:45 am

Just to clarify.... tremor sense = Blindsight ?

I forgot about that one in my post earlier....
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Post by RustyDios on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:15 am

Friko1986 wrote:You dont answer my question.

I want to know, if hiden char (HISP/Imp. INV or HIPS + Imp. INV.) can be seen somehow, by useing True seeing, or some for me unknow spell Smile

A character under the effects of Improved Invisibility AND HiPS would get the following benefits;
Invisible to Spot checks (part of Detect Mode). Invisible to "normal sight".
50% Concealment bonus.
"Stealth mode" active. Using your hide and move silently skills to avoid detection.

The character could be seen by any of the following methods;
Blindsight, 60ft radius. (Monster feat, negates Invisibility, Stealth mode and I believe Concealment*)
True Sight effect(from an item or spell, negates Invisibility and Stealth mode (auto-spot skill success). Retains Concealment)
See Invisibility Spell (would negate the invisible aspect and allow the Spot check to be attempted for Detect mode)
A successful Listen skill check (vs. Move Silently skill DC).. (part of detect mode)
Character performs an "attack" action (negates the invisibility and drops out of stealth mode, retains 50% concealment)
(Hit by an AoE spell or its effects, no change in your status but you will still be effected)
(Blind Fight (feat, allows miss chance for concealment to be re-rolled, partially negates Invisibility effects) )

I think that more specifically answers your question?



Last edited by RustyDios on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : *Blindsight and Concealment need to be checked on... I can find no relevant information on the subject.)
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:21 pm

RustyDios wrote:Just to clarify.... tremor sense = Blindsight ?

I forgot about that one in my post earlier....

Yeah, that's it. One baddie has that feat. And I just checked the other... beholder elders have true seeing, but don't see through greater sanctuary anymore.

*edit: I do not believe blindsight negates concealment.
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Post by Friko1986 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:46 am

Wow, what an articel to read Smile
Thank you for all your posts.

The uber-True seening a little bit sux
but still is good to know all that stuff.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:31 am

Thankfully there's only one enemy in Aenea who has blindsense. Very nasty thing.... one of DM Mythgar's cruel creatures of carnage Razz
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