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Used: Firm Grasp On A Sticky Problem

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MannyJabrielle
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Post by Elhanan Sat May 04, 2013 5:40 pm

The berry briars are apparently quite deadly for lowbies, and can serve as a barricade against Goblins and other spawning foes in that area. Still, the berries are quite essential for a low level quest, and this has me puzzling over a possible solution. Perhaps much like most cloaks can serve as protection against weather, I was wondering if Gloves could offer protection against briars or like items that cause minor damage when grasped? Mundane gloves could be placed in Smitty's, and other gloves could also serve as sufficient protection for berry picking, too.

Thanks!
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Post by MannyJabrielle Sun May 05, 2013 5:44 pm

There's a few options available. Rods of the Ghost sold in Tradeholm is one, the +1/soak 5 benefit of ghostly visage will mitigate the berry damage.

There's also rune-painting. Rock runes gives a +1/soak5 DR as well. I can't recall if Smitty or Morty sell the runepaints, but they are available from Shae in Mountainholm.

Herbalist pouches offer something to help as well.. while there's no DR herbal concoctions to make, the trollweed herb mixture will grant +1 regen, which is sufficient to mitigate the damage taken. Morty sells those, and refill items as well.
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Post by Elhanan Sun May 05, 2013 11:39 pm

Sadly, none of those will be of much aid to the lowbies, esp the newcomers taking the early quests available. However, a pair of gloves for use in farming or other chores seems reasonable.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 06, 2013 12:47 am

How do you figure those would not be of much aid to the lowbies? Those ARE the lowbie items providing the very function you suggested.
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Post by Elhanan Mon May 06, 2013 1:49 am

If not cost effective for starting PC's, getting to those locations when 2nd or so can be hazardous. After all, the quest involved may send some on the roads but also can be finished with the berries being the furthest location from the Inn.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 06, 2013 2:38 am

Um, how is going to see Morty, who's in bluebeard's tower which is inside the vale, hazardous and not cost effective?

Seriously.....
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 06, 2013 3:08 am

Smitty.... just checked him out, no rune paints but he sells ghost potions for around 90gp.

The ghost potions, and all the other options I pointed out are FAR cheaper than an item with DR on it.

There's already an item sold in the vale too with the lowest level of DR on it. Adventurer's robes. They however are priced at around 5k, and putting that same property on a glove item will cost about the same.
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Post by RustyDios Mon May 06, 2013 3:17 am

For the herb option, the pouch costs only 10gp, but refills cost 200gp a piece... which could be expensive for a lowbie... esp as you can burn a whole pouch before getting a single trollweed....

The ghost potion is a good viable option....
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 06, 2013 3:46 am

Turn on ;;option collect, and the pouch will refill as you run around Aenea.

The adventurer's academy also sells 5pack stacks of several potions for extremely cheap prices. 5 endurance potions and 5 cure critical wounds potions for 200 GP total. That's MORE than enough to let even a level 1 PC with the lowest possible con score get those berries without dying.
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Post by RustyDios Mon May 06, 2013 5:19 am

Good point...... yeah there are plenty of other options to explore , although the "Gardeners Gloves" do sound cool ...
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Post by Elhanan Mon May 06, 2013 9:02 am

So that is Morty; hardly have ever visited....

Still, this only goes to illustrate that experienced Players do not have knowledge of included fixes, so new Players will be even more unlikely to skip them. Plus, when one is first assigned the quest, it is unlikely they are thinking that berries will have thorns deadly enough to ward off predators as seen in the African wilds. Really, to ask Players to 'armor up' for a mundane task seems off to me.

But as they search through Smitty's stock of recommended starting items and come across work gloves, this may at least catch their attention.

Or I am in favor of having the briars removed, as newbies are being severely injured, if not dying by simply picking berries. The threat still remains from spawns nearby, so the quest still remains adventerous.
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Post by Angel of Death Mon May 06, 2013 11:22 am

Blackberry bushes without thorns isn't blackberry bushes at all. I rather like that aspect of them. You don't have to walk into the middle of the bushes to use the harvest tool either, you can stand near them and harvest berries quite well (without risk of being hurt). I have done it plenty of times... sunny

That said, a pair of "Gardener's Gloves" is a pretty nice idea; however, instead of giving them damage reduction +1/ soak 5...maybe make them akin to the jumper's ring or climbing gloves. When you wear them, they nullify the damage done by the script placed underneath the blackberry bushes in game--making it safe to pluck berries when worn, but doesn't have any real use for battling monsters. Smile


Oh. One last thing.

The goblin-infested wood isn't the only place which contains blackberry bushes. There are other places, locations near the Vale, which contains areas with berry bushes. Wink

Hint:
Spoiler:
Try look beyond Campton, explore the little Fae Community...

Actually. Now that it's mentioned. I wonder why Campton built a wall between themselves and the fae community. Maybe more players would visit the fae community if there was a trail or small pathway leading there. Should think the two communities visited each other, if for nothing else than doing business. =)
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Post by Elhanan Mon May 06, 2013 12:09 pm

These are not typical blackberry thorns; these are harsh enough to possibly kill some that try and pass through them. As one that ate handfuls of them as a child, I have no recollections of such hazards, or concerns on the faces of my elders.

And again, the newcomer does not know of such problems, techniques, or locations; have not revisited the Fae since the remaming myself.
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Post by Angel of Death Mon May 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Elhanan wrote:These are not typical blackberry thorns; these are harsh enough to possibly kill some that try and pass through them. As one that ate handfuls of them as a child, I have no recollections of such hazards, or concerns on the faces of my elders.
The script does 1 point of damage for each time you trigger it (take a step within). I think it's pretty accurate to how blackberry thorns hurt in real life. Trust me. I got those bushes in the garden. They hurt quite a bit, and stick to every piece of clothing when you try to weed out in them. Razz
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Post by Elhanan Mon May 06, 2013 2:35 pm

I do know about the reality of briars getting inside of protective clothing, and defend its use for scratches. But they should not be deadly enough to nearly kill starting characters and monsters, or require magical properties to gather them safely in the bushes. IMO.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Mon May 06, 2013 10:24 pm

I dunno, maybe it's just me then.... this quest has been done by newbies for years without much hassle. First time I did it, there weren't as many readily available options for mitigating the berry damage, so if you weren't a caster with ghostly visage or some similar spell.. you just took your time, used a heal potion when needed... and again took your time, not crashing through the bushes.

There's a huge number of options now to complete the quest. The roadways between the Vale, Campton, Mountainholm and Macedone are FAR less spawn populated than when I first started playing...

As for not knowing about the options.... I dunno, all I can say is, the NEW players are more LIKELY to know about them. Why? Same reason I know what I do about Aenea.

When I started, I knew jack about the server, and there weren't a lot of people around to give me pointers. Some nights I was the ONLY player on. So, without anyone to hold my hand, I went out and I discovered what was there. Any other new player is going to do just that as well.

Yeah, ok, gardener gloves with special scripted properties could be neato....

But I honestly think they are not needed given the over abundance of options to mitigate what is in reality not a "killing people left and right" type of obstacle.
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 12:21 am

OTOH, I hear from new players complaints that armored characters are being shredded by berry thorns, then I have to defend the reasoning, mechanics, etc. And this has happened several times since I joined the server.

While experienced Players know to stand at a distance, new Players do not and often find themselves down enough hp to make the return trip hazardous should there be more spawns.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 07, 2013 1:01 am

That's just one of the inherant flaws of the D&D system with armor.

Armor = AC, not necessarily damage reduction. The only way to work around that is reduce the cost of the various DR properties and make them standard properties of armor. That itself would be a good suggestion, especially at how easily the heavy armor PC's AC caps compared to a dex PC in clothing. That's a whole different topic however.

And I beg to differ on "experienced vs new players" slant on this. I would like to think people are not inherently stupid. How do you think "experienced" players know not to walk around in circles in berry bushes? By walking around in circles in the berry bushes and going "Hrmm, maybe I shouldn't do that anymore". That's part of the learning process. We all did it. That's how we got to be "experienced" players... by experiencing.

As much as I know dying is not fun... there has to be some challenge. Yes, being "new" is rough. It's SUPPOSED to be rough and hazardous.

If we make it where you walk out of the conjunction brand spanking new and are impervious to any little inconvenience, well I think that would be a bad thing.

There's already MANY options for bypassing this extremely minor inconvenience. Ghost potions, herbalist pouches, rune paints, stoneskin potions, archer's belts, spell scrolls, spells, healing potions to mitigate the damage. Low on HP and can't make it back to the vale? Escape potions. That is the VERY situation they are made for, and they're already a viable option in game already.
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 5:42 am

And again, why would a new Player purchase a potion, pouches, paint, belt, scroll, etc to go pick berries? Gloves perhaps, but the others do not make sense.

For me, the rules already work, as a Touch Attack bypasses armor, and getting in the grasp of such briars would seem to fall in this category. And it is realistic, except of course for guantlets. But in NWN, this is covered by another slot, either bracers or gloves; hence my original suggestion.

And there is danger already involved by Goblins, wolves, and other critters that can spawn in that area, including Dragons. Also, from standing just a tad too far from the berries when Harvesting can send a PC into the bushes unless one is fast enough to catch it. This is not stupidity; simply poor reactions and game mechanics.
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Post by Angel of Death Tue May 07, 2013 9:57 am

Elhanan wrote:And again, why would a new Player purchase a potion, pouches, paint, belt, scroll, etc to go pick berries? Gloves perhaps, but the others do not make sense.

I don't know if it's just me, but I consider it common sense to stock up on basic necessities/supplies before wandering off into the wilderness...

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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 10:37 am

Angel of Death wrote:
Elhanan wrote:And again, why would a new Player purchase a potion, pouches, paint, belt, scroll, etc to go pick berries? Gloves perhaps, but the others do not make sense.

I don't know if it's just me, but I consider it common sense to stock up on basic necessities/supplies before wandering off into the wilderness...


Maybe your characters have different needs than mine for instance, but I invest in cloak, armor, ranged and melee weapon, food, and medicinal gear with my 300 gp. That usually leaves enough gp for me to complete this quest and buy an old man a bottle of whiskey. However, I already know that the thorns are deadly, and try to avoid using my bandages from picking berries. When these other things are considered standard gear for such a task, perhaps it is time for the task to be altered a bit.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 07, 2013 2:31 pm

Ok, so you spend that 300 GP to buy that gear... what makes you think a pair of gloves with reduction or resistance is somehow going to be cheaper than the options mentioned? You are apparently hinting that you are looking for a damage reduction item that costs about the same as you'd spend on the flask of whiskey, which is a pittance....

The robes with DR cost 5k. Even the resistance belt costs around 600.... Again... a gauntlet with these same properties is going to cost less unless The Amethyst Dragon makes them a special property item like the speedy boots with special function to bypass the berry bush damage... and I'll be bluntly honest... it's a waste of resources given the over abundance of options to avoid and/or mitigate the pitiful damage those bushes do.

If you're looking for a "cost effective/100% safe non hazardous" option for someone who refuses to use the options at hand... the option then is don't do the quest, because I don't know how much cheaper and readily available the options could be made other than giving PCs free damage reduction items right out of the conjunction.

And I'm actually getting annoyed by the "it's highly dangerous" slant here. Dragons? Really? We got a huge problem of dragons regularly spawning in the goblin woods? Do you mean that rare once in a blue moon sprinkled with fairy dust and singing "when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie" rare chance of spawning a green wyrmling or two?'

That's what escape potions are for. If you don't have one, and you end up fighting the wyrmling and dying...

Well, sometimes life sucks and you roll a 1. What can I tell ya?

This quest was not an issue back when I was a "new inexeperienced" player on the server myself, and the environment is actually easier now than then given the reduced spawnings, and greater number of cheap as hell protective options available.

Ok, thinking back, let me correct myself. This quest WAS an issue... my damn wrist would get incredibly sore from the hazard of moving all those food items from my inventory into the food barrel Razz
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 3:36 pm

No; I seek a pair of mundane Gloves that remove or reduce damage from this kind of Touch Attack, like cloaks do for weather. Cloaks only cost 1 gp, so I look for something like this.

I believe The Amethyst Dragon has already received a recent complaint about such a Dragon spawn, as well as a minor complaint about these briars; cannot help with the former, but thought normal protection on the hands might prevent damage from the latter.

Escape potions are costly for newbies, as are many other suggested items.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 07, 2013 3:53 pm

50 gp for an escape is costly? really?

90 gp for a ghost potion is costly? really?

10 gp for an herbalist pouch is costly? Really?

What are rune paints going for? 125 gp? 150?

I made a new orc wizard the other night, went halfway into the goblin caves, came out with several dropped magic items which netted me 5k after all IDing costs.

Non reincarnated, non ascended, plain AC0 robes, plain quarter staff, 3 spell slots, no additional items other than food, harvesting knife, cloak, and a few escape potions.... Orc wizard... far from an "optimized power build". 5,000gp profit to spend after just 15 minutes of play time out of the conjunction..... and you're saying a new character can't afford 50 gp for an escape potion?

Seriously, please stop trying to make it out like the server is a horrible hazardous place where newbies beg for GP and die every five minutes. I'm actually starting to get seriously irritated at the misrepresentation of the reality of the situation.
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 7:51 pm

Like I said, I have knowledge of such complaints, and believe The Amethyst Dragon has received some of them, too.

And you nor myself are new Players; big difference when receiving initial impressions. And kinda like yourself, I am simply trying to find ways to prevent floral fires....
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Post by MannyJabrielle Tue May 07, 2013 8:52 pm

Just ran into one of the wyrmlings earlier today. Level 2 with all mundane gear (longsword, hide armor, tartan cloak, small shield). Good battle, challenging, not fatal at all even soloing. Didn't even have to resort to healing potions. No "experienced player secret knowledge" employed.

IMO, it's right on par for a newbie encounter, but that's another topic.

The topic is "There need to be ways to mitigate berry damage".

Pointed out the various options. They are indeed cost effective. They are indeed readily available to a new PC brand spanking new out of the conjunction with only the initial 300 starting gp.

There just aren't any floral fires IMO. Nothing worth additional resources for one single instance of use that is easily mitigated with pre-existing resources.
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Post by Elhanan Tue May 07, 2013 11:43 pm

The Dragon spawned was at least an Adult Green; had Fear aura which led to deaths. Also this has happened to me on a couple of my lowbie characters..

50 gp is 1/6 of the starting purse, and that is supposedly for a one shot potion probably not on many lists for picking berries. Not on my lists, at least.

Glad some are happy with the current fixes, as I am not asking for these to change. What I want is for the quest to evolve to either prevent harsh damege from occuring, remove the briars, or at least better illustrate the bushes by adding razor wire or something to the appearance.
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Post by Angel of Death Wed May 08, 2013 12:55 pm

Yeah. Adult green wyrms do spawn occasionally in the Silveryleaf forest--but not everytime (should be a given that the green wyrmlings running rampant around the road and in the forest has a mother somewhere nearby!).

Fear aura. Liquid Courage potions are your friend at low levels. You can buy a stack of 3 for 60gp in the Adventurer's Academy Smile

Tip on starting gold: I always sell the Asis potions you start out with, it nets me 400-500 gp extra to stock up on equipment/supplies. Instead I buy a healer's kit and a few cure critical wound potions--which still leave me net sum of gold to do good with. Wink
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Post by Elhanan Wed May 08, 2013 1:03 pm

I tried selling those Asis potions once; needed them so much in the next few days I have not repeated the practice.

Pretty much everyone here knows that I hate playing low levels; things become much smoother at ca. 12th. So when I hear complaints from other Players about the difficulties (eg; one shot Rats and Stirges, Ant Queens, berry briars, etc), I am rather empathetic. Plus, I believe such things present a lesser first impression of Aenea, and perhaps putting another presentation for newcomers could be positive.
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed May 08, 2013 1:20 pm

That selling the starter potions sounds like a good trick. Sell the asis ones, go and purchase some green healing potions from the dog. The cure serious wounds 5pack from the academy dog costs I think 60 gp? Sell the asis light potions for 400, buy 10 more green serious potions for 120, that's still a hefty profit to buy even more potions with.

The wyrmlings don't have a fear aura too, nor do they have any DR penetration. A ghost potion will turn their scratches into tickles.
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Post by Angel of Death Wed May 08, 2013 1:32 pm

The wyrmlings don't have fear auras, no. But the adult green dragon does (and yes, they do spawn at rare occurances in silveryleaf forest). Fear immunity from the potions work wonders then! Wink

(Note. I'm not complaining about the dragons. I like those, they do belong in the forest...just wish they had a dragon's lair somewhere...have yet to run into one of those. But maybe I just overlooked it)
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Ah, well, deeper into the forests... lions and tigers and dragons, oh my Razz
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Post by Angel of Death Wed May 08, 2013 1:49 pm

There's rumours of a wardrobe closet in the Sleeping Dragon Inn which takes you even further into the woods! Razz
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Post by MannyJabrielle Wed May 08, 2013 2:02 pm

That's in the adventurer's academy... so go check them all out, let us know which one it is Razz
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Post by Eric of Atrophy Wed May 08, 2013 6:42 pm

This was always my two cents for a starting strategy ... bandages!
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon Tue May 14, 2013 12:23 am

Modifying the brambles code for next module update. If you're wearing gloves (of any sort), you'll be able to safely and easily just push them aside...

and Darla will sell some cheap work gloves.

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