Suggestions for the Aenea Epic Magic system rewrite (Viva!)

Besides fixing the wonkyness of the current system, I would also like to make some suggestions to make the system overall more beneficial

The VFX's..... I would really love if there was some control over the VFXs.  The other week we did an epic dark realms romp, and the massive VFXs killed my framerate to be pretty much unplayable.  It would be very nice if there were toned-down versions of the VFXs, or a way to squelch them all together, at least the more flashy FPS murdering ones.  In particular.... I *rarely* use the +10 deflection AC spell because the VFX drops my FPS down, and it gives me a slight headache after a while.  The Armor AC and Natuarl AC VFX's are no where near as bad (although I'd love to have a "shadowshield" like VFX on the natural AC seed for more darker/evil epic casters).

Seed Combinations....

While many seeds are wonderful on their own.... I would like to see the ability to combine seeds as well.  Example, I'd love to combine the AC seeds into one spell.  Maybe a variable rate on the AC bonus itself.  I would love to be able to combine even +10 Armor/Natural/Deflection AC's into a single spell.  The research/cast DC would naturally be higher, but it would be a greater customization option.  With the current system.... the only real difference between Autumn's "Midnight Armor" epic armor AC spell and say, Anna's Illusionary shield is probably name only.  Same VFX, likely same duration.... sorta cookie-cutter like.

For offensive spells, this would really be nice.  Hellball is a nice spell for several reasons... it offers a knockdown plus damage across several elemental types.  The epic energy seed spells are nice as well, but are only single elemental types, and subject to evasion.  I personally would tackle a higher DC for a 25d6 sonic+25d6 electrical damage spell which bypassed evasion.  More combination possibilities could be found.

An offensive seed for divine casters... 

Yes, wizards/sorcs should retain exclusive access to the energy and destroy seeds.... but divine casters need some offensive capability as well.  It's not out of character either, as divine casters are able to take the hellball and greater ruin spell feats.  Rather than give divine casters access to the wiz/sorc spells though.... I think they could do with a divine/positive/negative set of seeds.  Currently the only offensive seed they have access to is the slay seed, which doesn't quite fit with all divine casters.  The divine/positive/negative damage types are already accessible to divine spells (nearly all cleric spells tend to do divine+fire damage, or just straight divine).  Doesn't need to be as awesome as the energy seed... but a little something would be nice.

DC's...

The DC's need to be more reasonable.  Under the current system, most of the DC increases are massive (a good number add +50 to the DC), while the burns to reduce the overall DC are very minimal but excessive cost (5K XP only nets I think -15 DC?).

Granted a level 21 wizard/sorc/cleric/druid should not be able to toss out a higher end epic spell with all the nicest modifiers, BUT.... it should not take a 40th level caster with +10 to +20 casting stat buys from Shae and maxed out gear to get just one good modifier onto their spells, MAYBE two if they use all the available burns.

IMO, a 40th level caster with +50 spellcraft from items (Not a difficult feat by any means now if you have access to item empowerment yourself or through a friend's caster) SHOULD be able to crank out some pretty hefty spells.  Not the absolute top tier, but close.... the reason being that maxing out int and casting stat (or just intelligence if wizard) only adds +20 to your DC... but is a MASSIVE investment  (20 million XP for non-wziards, 10 million for wizards).  That investment should I think be "gravy" for the character, not a 'requirement'.  A 70d6 destroy seed with +20 on the saves and the max boost to caster levels for SR check and enemy target only huge or gargantuan AoE would certainly be "gravy land" maxed out.... but a 35d6 destroy seed at huge AoE with +10 on the saves enemy only and +5 on SR penetration.... that I could see as being doable for a 40th level devoted caster with +50 on their gear, focused soley on their caster stat and having all the AEMS beneficial feats.  The level 21 caster without al the bells and wistles of course would not be able to manage that, only able to knock out the low level single target destroy seed without any beneficial modifers but a burn or two *at best*.

This would mean ranging the DCs I think by what is expected to be the minimum at level 21 to the maximum one could achieve at 40th with all the bells and whistles, and further on with the maxed out shae stat buys as the rollsroyce end of the line omg don't let crideas start waggling his fingers the universe will explode top end stuff.  Subrace bonuses (such as bright gnome for wizard (and cleric/druid, although slightly less so), or vampire for sorcerer or bard/sorc based PMs) should probably be "gravy" as well in ranging the DCs).


Bells and Whistles.....

;;em list could reeeally use a list-break like the teleport lists.  I love the current ;;em # command giving the spell's name in the combat log feedback though... definintely keep that!

Researching and epic magic slots....

This would certainly be pure gravy..... but it would rock if there was a way to manage the spell slots WITHOUT erasing and re-researching a spell.  This is just my purely OCD nature though.  If one could swap spells between slots (like, ;;em swap 1 31 would switch the spell in slot 1 to slot 31, and the spell in 31 (if any) would be swapped to slot 1, (or slot 1 just made empty as 31 had no spell to swap)


Spell Renaming.  We can rename teleport slots.  We can rename items.  Renaming those things does not cost us gold and XP.  Epic spells do.  It would be nice if we could rename them (because we all make dumb naming choices and it would be nice to fix an aesthetic aspect of the spell without researching the entire thing all over again).

Modifying current spells....

Yes, this is probably a long shot, but, it would be REALLY nice to be able to "modify" a spell after it's been finalized.

Say a level 25 sorc makes an energy seed spell, 15d6 or whatever the lowest value is.  That spell becomes his "signature" spell (whoever's travelled with Crideas knows about the orbital strikes, those who've travelled with Autumn and paid attention may have also noticed her Starlight Strikes).

Well, that 25th level sorc is now a 35th level sorc, and he has a LOT more spellcraft power to toss around.  He's so used to using slot 5 for his signature "troll-roaster" spell, but to increase the power of his signature spell... he has to research it all over again.

It would be great if in a scenario like that, we could "modify" a current spell, increase it's power but not paying quite as much as if we researched a whole new spell from scratch.   Just a rough example, intially a spell cost 550K xp and however much GP to create.  Later on, the caster wants to up that spell from it's Xd6 stage of damage to the next higher level.  If he created a new spell with that value, it would cost 770k xp/whatever GP.... but if he modified his current spell, he'd only have to pay an additional 200k xp, 20k less overall for modifying a spell he's already researched and is familiar with.

Seed selections.....

Certain seeds are just..... I dunno, they don't really seem appealing.

The necromancy style seeds for example.  The ability to 20 skeletons is ultimately a gimmick.  It's not really "epic".  I haven't tried the 4 mummies or 4 vampire versions yet, but if they summom just bland common versions of those undead.... also not really epic in style.  I would gladly take the 1 mummy from the epic spell feat "mummy dust" (bad ass katana weilding mummy) over 4 regular mummies.

Same with the invisibility/imp invisibility seeds.... not really "epic" other than their duration and the fact they give access to invis/imp invis to divine casters.  For divine casters.... those are low level spells, not epics.

Displacement... I love this one, and at the same time I scorn it.  The only thing I have against it is that it offers a VERY powerful benefit  for an EXTREMELY cheap price.  Granted I am comparing the investment to the investment of a rogue/sd/ect who goes for Self Concealment 5 and that is apple and oranges.... but they are both round and edible.  The caster can gain permenant 50% concealment for virtually nothing compared to the dexer who needs to invest 6 feats and a ton of skill points to get the same effect.

Overall... keep the seed, but I think it should not be so dirt cheap to get a permenant duration edition of the spell.  Not 70d6 destroy seed level expensive by any means, but not dirt cheap either that a level 21 caster can whip out a permenant edition of the spell (which is possible, that was the first spell my latest sorc did at level 21 with no voucher items, 100% in-game gear upgraded via PC enchantment, and a +3 tome used at the time).

Predesigned Spells....

These I love.  If the above suggestion about combining seeds is a no-go.... DEFINITELY more predesigned spells that are snazzier than the single seed effects we can research.

Awesome post Manny.

Another thing that my Magic imagination screams for is to be able to stack the same seed effect multiple times in one cast - sort of like a Spell Trigger. Imagine Crideas linking three 70d6 destroy seeds together in a sequence? Makes my mouth water

As for ways to reduce the DCs - it was previously discussed about being able to increase the number of epic castings that a spell would cost to fire off. So you want 3 destroy seeds with +20 boosts to the DC linked together without losing XP or draining health? That'll cost ya 3 or 4 epic castings to pull off... But when it hits, there wont be anything left but a crater.

Multiple castings to boost power/reduce casting DCs would be very nice.

Agreed 100%. Particularly with the renaming and reshuffling part. Often people don't know what a spell will look like, so the name chosen may feel inadequate even right after researching. As the spell repertoire widens, the grouping can take a hit, and the most often used spells will likely change with levels. I don't think it's hard to do, so please, please include this!

Spell upgrading would definitely rock, too. It would show the character progresses at understanding some forces better, refining them to her needs -- instead of sort of doing the same thing over again.

MannyJabrielle wrote:Multiple castings to boost power/reduce casting DCs would be very nice.

I vote for that, but I think it would be better to add quantity to slots - for example - ;;em slot1 1 3 - cast spell #1 3 times.

+
speaking of all that epic magic, I believe defensive spells are too overpowered while offensive are underpowered. I suggest to reduce AC, DR buffs to +10 each (not 20-20-10) and DR to 20. 40 is just too much. And 60 elemental resistance is close to absolute immunity - there are no such damages in pve except epic traps in gauntlet. I think it should be not more than 40. Concealment... should be trippled in price and made for 40 (80 with double duration) rounds.
Speaking of offensive spells - damage looks nice, but saves are awful. Even lvl5 phoenix, lvl4 ice storm, not speaking of bugged weird, are more reliable than epic energy.
One more thing - Sorc paragon. When I was reading about it, I thought - wow, it would be awesome. But when I tried it... the range is so small, that even huge mobs (which attack from some small distance in melee) are not affected.

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There are lots of different builds for AC (monk based, with use of Palemaster levels, full dex based, aenea specific Ironheart, Dashing and daring), there are also different DR builds (Barbarian, Dwarven defender), but spellcasters intended to be glasscannons have all of that in just a couple of spells, undispellable and for insane duration. Playing my new lvl40 sorc without custom items and additional stats and not even reincarnated is much easier than any other of my high geared, well-planned pc's.

ColdWind wrote:Concealment... should be trippled in price and made for 40 (80 with double duration) rounds.

It would be exactly the same in effect as the 3rd level Concealment spell made undispellable.

ColdWind wrote:Speaking of offensive spells - damage looks nice, but saves are awful. Even lvl5 phoenix, lvl4 ice storm, not speaking of bugged weird, are more reliable than epic energy.

Not really. 50d6 is still 25d6 with save, more than Ice Storm(max. 18d6) and around the same as Field of Flame(max. 80 [It's lvl6, by the way]), but this damage is not dependant on caster levels, can be DC-boosted(up to +20), CL-boosted and can inflict the damage of your choice, including sonic. It also retains all the innate advantages of epic spells, such as being able to cast them armored, no countering or interruption, and not being subject to spell immunity, since school don't apply to them. That's assuming you do make the save, which is far less likely if you boost it.

ColdWind wrote:And 60 elemental resistance is close to absolute immunity - there are no such damages in pve except epic traps in gauntlet.

Dragon breath is another source I can think of. Some of them can do ~200 dmg.

ColdWind wrote:One more thing - Sorc paragon. When I was reading about it, I thought - wow, it would be awesome. But when I tried it... the range is so small, that even huge mobs (which attack from some small distance in melee) are not affected.

I don't know about now, but back when it was introduced, the save was also pretty pathetic, somewhere in the range of 20-30 for me(whereas my 9th level spells were easily 40+ base, so nearing 50 with focuses). It could be decent if it was a few times/day ability, but with things as they were, I forgot about it after trying it a few times.

Lasombra wrote:
It would be exactly the same in effect as the 3rd level Concealment spell.

but not dispellable, which is very important in some situations (liches, beholders)

Lasombra wrote:
Not really. 50d6 is still 25d6 with save, more than Ice Storm(max. 18d6) and around the same as Field of Flame(max. 80 [It's lvl6, by the way]), but this damage is not dependant on caster levels, can be DC-boosted(up to +20), CL-boosted and can inflict the damage of your choice, including sonic. It also retains all the innate advantages of epic spells, such as being able to cast them armored, no countering or interruption, and not being subject to spell immunity, since school don't apply to them. That's assuming you do make the save, which is far less likely if you boost it.

add staff of empowerment to this and ability to spam endlessly. epics should be "epic", and now you will have to choose between aoe and save dc. it's close to impossible to max both, and without it, compare 25d6 from epic spell with 27d6 from ice storm Having sonic damage is great, but you can take sonic staff, which is unnecessary, because having both fire and ice is enough already to deal at least 100% dmg.

Lasombra wrote:
Dragon breath is another source I can think of. Some of them can do ~200 dmg.

dragons are lvl20 mobs here I guess. I believe you got hte point.

All good points!

Free spell renaming, definitely.  Or... I'd like to see a Celestial Gold and XP Credit for trashing a spell with full refund.  This would essentially make renaming and upgrading free under the current conditions, and also covers the case where you had no idea what you were going to get (as all the many details of the specific effects of each seed are not fully elaborated anywhere) and hate what you got.

I'd also like to see more divine/positive/negative set of seeds.  But as regards the positive and negative, please don't make them cleric only... my shadow wizard devotee of Prizimal concept is actually that she is by her nature a specialist in negative and positive energies.  I'll be releveling her to take the Greater Ruin feat, and I'd sure like to see her be able to acquire some more epic positive damage spells.

ColdWind wrote:but not dispellable, which is very important in some situations (liches, beholders)

I really don't see those mord's swords posing a threat to an epic mage, especially considering we're talking about a scenario where enough time passes for you to get dispelled and attacked by summoned creatures, which means 3 rounds of... what? Buffing yourself up instead of sunbursting them to death?

It's not a significant enough threat to use such short-term buffs, anyway. AC, DR and they won't lay a finger on you for 48 hours.

ColdWind wrote:add staff of empowerment to this and ability to spam endlessly. epics should be "epic", and now you will have to choose between aoe and save dc. it's close to impossible to max both, and without it, compare 25d6 from epic spell with 27d6 from ice storm

You have a point here, but energy seed is AOE already, so that's out of the calculation. It's easy enough to boost the DC's, which means for vast majority of mobs you will do 50d6. Add to this split damage of icestorm and many mobs' resistance to ice and bludgeoning, and epic is a winner by far. Not to mention you have damage type versality and free hands if you're a battlemage.

You're using double standards here, ignoring epic advantages of Energy seed while elevating them for Conceal. Epics should be epics across the board, no?

I only think the DC could indeed be higher. Duration? Maybe on par with epic AC buffs, but definitely not 3rd level spells, when a 4th level one gives 10x more.

well, let's compare offensive and defensive epic spells.
offensive, I don't want to argue which is better, but at least they are comparable. there is no such thing like 2 times more dps.
as for defensive, we have most of ac enchants limited to +5 with some exceptions. epic magic boosts it to x20. that is 4 times more. A character focusing on damage reduction can achieve not more than 30/- dr, suffering in offensive abilities. I am not accurate here, but ac-based builds are somewhere close to 95 with 3 apr and close to zero damage output. My almost naked sorc boosts his dr to 40/- and ac to much higher numbers just casting a few spells.

Lasombra wrote:
You're using double standards here, ignoring epic advantages of Energy seed while elevating them for Conceal. Epics should be epics across the board, no?

its not double standards, I just want to see offensive spells boosted and defensive lowered. I believe caster classes must use magic to avoid being hit (bigbies, walls, crowd controlling spells - sleep,slow, blindness etc), not making himself invulnerable and just standing in the middle of the crowd of mobs and casting.

Maybe you don't appreciate epic damagers because you powerleveled your sorcerer, so you didn't experience a wide range of situations.

A mage is often not about dealing as much damage as possible, but dealing the best kind of damage possible for the situation. It's qualities such as selective targets, damage types, improved DCs, range and such that really make or break the spell - and a lot of it is available to customize with epics. You want 2xDPS? Compare them to delayed blast fireball - 2,5x more damage. And you can add +20DC, which is worth a few spell levels in itself, make it party friendly, or change the damage type to sonic, which most enemies are susceptible to. Weak? I wouldn't say so.

Some spells, such as Ice Storm, happen to be particularly good at higher levels because of their qualities, but aren't so impressive in the beginning. The balance of power constantly changes, but epics have steady damage across the board. By assuming some very particular circumstances(40 caster levels, non-resistant enemies, staff), you may prove the spell on par with some un-upgraded epics, but by not taking them for granted, you would realize it's actually not so at all.

You can't compare damaging to defending. It brings the end of the battle closer, serving as a form of defense, too, and they never were interchangeable qualities to begin with. Really, if you want a step-up from Premonition, you need more than 30 damage reduction it provides. Vanilla NWN has Warding with 50/+20 reduction, only limited by the amount of 1k HP soaked. took the approach of taking it down a notch but making it unlimited. OP? Maybe. But becoming OP with time is normal for DnD mages.

//Sorry for the offtop, I'm done now.

I am aware of magic resistances, spell mantles and elemental immunities of different mobs (haven't seen any with evocation immunity). It's not the point. If you are playing non-mage, you can ask someone to cast those buffs on you, well, most of the time.
The point is that +15 ac buff would be good for a world with +10 max enchants, but +20 for the world with +5 enchants (where mobs are adjusted to those numbers, for example, Reavers, the toughest guys, have 60 leading ab) is just spoiling all the balance. What is the reason to adjust equipment, make complex builds, if mobs can't even hit you, not speaking of bypassing all those reductions, when you are naked?
Comparing to premonition, one Reaver can strip it in 2 rounds at top, if he its you as it should be, 3 reavers will kill you in 1 round. Warding would serve longer, you'll survive 3 rounds or so, but it is 1-shot spell. That is not comparable.

Lasombra wrote:
You want 2xDPS? Compare them to delayed blast fireball - 2,5x more damage. And you can add +20DC, which is worth a few spell levels in itself, make it party friendly, or change the damage type to sonic, which most enemies are susceptible to. Weak? I wouldn't say so.

ColdWind wrote:
Speaking of offensive spells - damage looks nice, but saves are awful.

when we were testing epic spells, you've seen base dc - it was 37. I can't allow (on my lvl40) to adjust it more than to 47, not speaking of aoe version. And I think most won't be able to max it for dc and aoe, even with burning bom and exp. You've also seen my damage to myself form that epic and from phoenix.

That's a normal DC with your charisma - epic spells aren't calculated any diffrent in that regard(they're considered level 10 and don't have schools, so focuses don't apply).You definitely could get it to +20 with right choices, and the fact it's not AOE is most likely a bug, so the idea of the system can't be blamed here.

ColdWind wrote:+
speaking of all that epic magic, I believe defensive spells are too overpowered while offensive are underpowered. I suggest to reduce AC, DR buffs to +10 each (not 20-20-10) and DR to 20. 40 is just too much. And 60 elemental resistance is close to absolute immunity - there are no such damages in pve except epic traps in gauntlet. I think it should be not more than 40. Concealment... should be trippled in price and made for 40 (80 with double duration) rounds.
Speaking of offensive spells - damage looks nice, but saves are awful. Even lvl5 phoenix, lvl4 ice storm, not speaking of bugged weird, are more reliable than epic energy.
One more thing - Sorc paragon. When I was reading about it, I thought - wow, it would be awesome. But when I tried it... the range is so small, that even huge mobs (which attack from some small distance in melee) are not affected.

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There are lots of different builds for AC (monk based, with use of Palemaster levels, full dex based, aenea specific Ironheart, Dashing and daring), there are also different DR builds (Barbarian, Dwarven defender), but spellcasters intended to be glasscannons have all of that in just a couple of spells, undispellable and for insane duration. Playing my new lvl40 sorc without custom items and additional stats and not even reincarnated is much easier than any other of my high geared, well-planned pc's.

Coldwind, I do appreciate that you prefer more challenge in your gameplay. Thats no issue, and its your right to that opinion.

I do take issue with 'nerfing' what other players have. If you aren't a fan of what can be achieved with the current system, you are not forced to research and use those spells or options. Please don't push to punish the rest of us who enjoy the current balance. I like having my 40 DR and my 60 elemental resistances. I think my PC paid and invested enough time to justify them, and they make my gameplay more enjoyable. That is no less valid than your preference, and taking it away from me (and everyone else who enjoys it) is not fair.

-/60 elemental resistances are very powerful, but i don't think they're out of line for epic spells.  Energy buffer grants -/40, and is good against all elements, not just a single element.  If the epic elemental wards were to be reduced, I would say no more than taking it down to -/50, which would follow the progression of the lower level elemental resistance spells.

There's several sources besides epic traps which can do more than that -60.  Dragon breath, as mentioned can do upwards of 200 from the biggest ancients, dracolich's have decent punch.  Not sure of any enemy casters that have it, but flame arrow can nail out a LOT of fire damage

The -/40 physical resistance ward fits in nicely as is.  It follows the progression of lower level spells (premonition is 30, greater stoneskin 20, regular stoneskin 10) and is not as powerful as epic warding (50/+20).  It's one advantage is it does not "wear down" like the others.  There are plenty of creatures able to punch through that however.  Reavers, epic orcs, dracoliches when they get through spellcasting.

As for the AC seeds...

Part of my suggestion for variable bonuses (+6 through +20) was to give more achievement scale to the effect.  Yes, it's a little OP that a level 21 caster can suddenly boost their AC by +32 above what is normally obtainable from equipment (assuming +8 bracers, +5 ring and +5 amulet), but a higher level epic caster should be able to pull those numbers off.

Paragon Sorcerer ability.... not part of epic magic, but definintely worth bringing up in a new thread.  Many other paragon abilities are extremely meh to virtually useless.

Epic damagers....

Yes, that currently the energy seeds are not doing the default huge aoe that they are supposed to is a bug.  Having them do a bit more damage would be great too.  A shift to d8 damage would be appropriate.  Horrids/hypothermia do d8, and for hypothermia, it does more cold damage for a 21st level caster than the first level of cold energy seed (10d6 vs hypothermia's 21d8)

Energy seed, those are fine as d6's.  Keep in mind they are supposed to destroy a target on a failed save (currently only the 70d6 version actually does this under the current buggy system).

Saves.... 

Yes, the spells are supposed to default as a level 10 spell for purposes of saves.  The ability to increase the saves is a big thing, and very nice.

Part of my initial suggestion was a modifier to negate evasion.  Especially against epic baddies, evasion can nerf a spell caster's spells to virtually nothing, making damage dealing less ideal than going straight for insta-kill effects (disintigration, dissonence, wail, implosion, ect).

Overall balance....

Please keep in mind that while the current setup is not as streamlined as could be, and there are gaps and rough spots in level progression, there is always work at improvement and making things fun.... and for the casual player as much as hard core powergamers.  Aenea is a casual server, some areas are tooled for challenging characters with solid builds, but the idea is not to make every aspect of gameplay so challenging as to require min-max powerbuilding.  Aenea caters as much to the RP focused crowd as the power-levelling crowd, and even to members who just like playing but coudln't tell you the difference between dodge and mobility, or know why a kukri weapon master will put out more damage than a dagger weapon master.

In short, setting the bar and keeping things fair across the board is an ongoing process, and is not as strict ruleswise as other hack-n-slash servers may be.

I agree 100% with the OP's post, especially about the ability to rename / reshuffle epig magic spells, and split up the ;;em list like with ;;tp lists but keep the epic spell's name displayed when selected.

MannyJabrielle wrote:the only real difference between Autumn's "Midnight Armor" epic armor AC spell and say, Anna's Illusionary shield is probably name only.  Same VFX, likely same duration.... sorta cookie-cutter like.

*Corrects Manny* >.>

That's Anna's Illusionary Armor (I-III). No "shield" anywhere.

But yes, I agree, would be nice to be able to customize those / combine them into one spell.


I also agree with the VFX part much. An option to be able to create epic spells which aren't flashy would be nice.

Maybe totally fluff here, but it would also be nice if there was an option where you're able to select which VFX fitted your new epic spell the best; that way epic magic would appear less cookie-cutter like and more like an individual mage had created an unique spell on their own.

Well, it's just my point of wiev, it's a suggestions topic, isn't it?
In short - my suggestion is to lower defensive spells and lower spellcraft requirement for DC increasement of offensive spells. I believe that would make all spells valuable at the same rate. Along with hte other suggestion to refund all you've learned before it seems noone looses nothing. At the moment personally I use epic defences only, as for offensive part - I prefer middle levels of evocation.

MannyJabrielle wrote:Especially against epic baddies, evasion can nerf a spell caster's spells to virtually nothing[...]

That's very strange considering Ama got half damage on a successful reflex save despite having evasion. Have you tested the energy seed recently?

Lasombra wrote:

MannyJabrielle wrote:Especially against epic baddies, evasion can nerf a spell caster's spells to virtually nothing[...]

That's very strange considering Ama got half damage on a successful reflex save despite having evasion. Have you tested the energy seed recently?

Evasion or Improved Evasion? There's a difference. Evasion halving damage on a successful save is as it should be. As for Improved Evasion, half damage is done when failing the save...maybe you missed a failed save in the heat of combat?

Evasion does negate all damage on a succesful save, Improved Evasion halves it even when it's failed. That's how it's supposed to be and usually is - for example sorc paragon ability didn't damage Ama at all, same with reflex-based traps. But when she rolls 1, she takes full damage.

Yes, it was a recent check (two weeks ago at most), the 50d6 sonic energy seed was getting subject to evasion/improved evasion.

Also.... Paragon abilities are not epic magic.  Please start up a paragon ability thread separate from this epic magic thread so this thread doesn't get cluttered with off-topic discussion.  It's a very active topic as-is.

I didn't mention paragon for comparison, but to prove evasion works as intended in cases other than energy seed(for me).

@down: I get the impression you're either not really reading my posts here or trying to say something else. Evasion negates damage from all sources that halve it on a reflex save, so it doesn't work as intended in circumstances I mentioned, where a successful check didn't prevent damage from getting to me.

Yes, nobody has suggested taht evasion *doesn't* work as intended.

The suggestion is a modifer for epic spells that bypasses the evasion mechanics, it said nothing at all that evasion was broken or not working quite right.....

The defensive end is a bit overpowered in my opinion. There are way too many builds who can become totally unhittable. The defensive boosts available in Aenea overpower the strongest melee offense I can come up with. Pretty hard to get over 30 BAB + 40 or so, and if you can easily achieve AC 90, you are not going to get hit by the strongest epic melee character.

Aenea is not about PvP so it is not a killer problem, but it seems the epic meleers should have ways to achieve enough attack bonuses by spending in the same manner in gold and xp on epic skills to still be able to hit those ACs.

Can we please not keep going back to pvp comparisons here? Why should other PCs be penalized because your PC can't hit them, especially when the only thing melee PCs need to worry about hitting in Aenea is baddies?

Comparing PCs capabilities for the purpose of pvp is not relevant to Aenea - if one seeks rules balanced for pvp, this is not the world for it.

The baddies aren't subject to the epic spell system, and they are balanced with that a moderately good melee PC build is capable of hitting in mind. Its not at all relevant to the epic magic system.

Taking things away from other PCs to satisfy ones personal vision of balance is not a worthwhile, fun, or considerate direction for these discussions. This is about making a better system, with more options and streamlined design in order to make the game more fun.

Again, if you think the highest available effects are too powerful in your opinion, that's fine. You don't have to use them. Players that do want them and will use them are not going to hurt your fun in any way, while pushing to impose your idea of limitations on the system will hurt their fun. Try to be fair about this, please.

If you have ideas on improvements for melee PCs, please start your own suggestion thread.

Skywatcher wrote:
Aenea is not about PvP so it is not a killer problem, but it seems the epic meleers should have ways to achieve enough attack bonuses by spending in the same manner in gold and xp on epic skills to still be able to hit those ACs.

won't work anyway. ab is limited to +20 like ac. but there are 4 types of ac which gives us possible +80. You already have at least +5 from enchant and possible +10 from hulk.

We don't have PvP, so I discounted that as a minor issue at best. But the relative power of different classes in PvE counts as well, and there are times when a melee build cannot take mobs in DR if they get the right buffs. Should there be a build that can always take them? Lyann has never had to abandon the last mob in DR, as Skywatcher has, because she just cannot get enough hits. And that is all I was saying. AC vs ATK is an issue in this game at epic levels.

For the Damage Resistance/Reduction AC empowerment etc argument of a caster vs. non-caster we are forgetting one very important aspect of Epic Magic....  This is the stuff that shapes, bends and distorts reality.

A non-caster in all his worldly physic abiding metal gear just shouldn't be able to compare to someone that is bending the very fabric of existence to attain the state of demi-godhood .... .... or am I completely missing the purpose of epic magic? Or viewing it in a way not shared by anyone else? 90% of my PC's are melee focused and they LOVE being a meatshield for an Epic Mage, just because the mage can do things that are "beyond the realm of reality". If the mage can do that for them, there is no reason the mage can't do the same for themselves.... ...


I like the suggestions for those of us with CDO minds (yes not a typo, I just put the letters in the correct alphabetical order ) Renaming and reshuffling stuff would be a great addition.

I don't really have any opinions on the epic magic front though. I've not really played with it all that much because of my two epic casters neither seem particularly inclined to go the route. For a player with limited playtime, amassing the quantities of gold and xp needed are too great. Not to mention I just don't have the time to actually DO the research both in-game and out-of-game to find a suitable style spell(the only time I've really tried ended with a failed result with my lv30 sorc, but I haven't actually played her in what? a year? so my foray was with the very first exposure of the AEMS).

This is my only suggestion.... I'd like the Torgat sword Stonehenge circle (or somewhere close to Vale, maybe the Mystara shrine area) to offer a portal to the Epic Magic Library for Epic Casters* (much like how there is a portal to Sunglory there).. saving a tp slot or need to use a Wanderers Portal to get there... ... it's a weak suggestion but the only thing I can think of... ... ..    


*It could be a plot-protected keyed-open only doorway, the keytag being the Epic Widget tag maybe?.. That auto-shuts the instant it is used or within 1 second (unlike the rest of Aenea's 5second doors)...

Skywatcher wrote:We don't have PvP, so I discounted that as a minor issue at best. But the relative power of different classes in PvE counts as well, and there are times when a melee build cannot take mobs in DR if they get the right buffs. Should there be a build that can always take them? Lyann has never had to abandon the last mob in DR, as Skywatcher has, because she just cannot get enough hits. And that is all I was saying. AC vs ATK is an issue in this game at epic levels.

That's still nothing to do with epic magic. Baddies don't have epic spells.

Please start a new thread on your issues with baddie Acs that you can't hit.

To clarify a bit, yes, I agree that some melee builds can have a harder time with epic baddies. My melee PCs can still solo all of the epic content, however.

Those enemies are intended to be a "Come correct, or get an express ticket to the Great Hall" kind of experience. They are meant to force players to up their game.

My unarmed monk, Blink, has a native AC of 91 standing still, and an AB of 68 with no buffs.... and not a single magical effect outside of his gear, and certainly no epic magic. He has comparatively low damage output per hit (5-15 dmg on Nemesis). He solo'd the nemesis before I ever ascended or grinded for his +20 Dex buys. It was just difficult, and I had to prepare and use heals and other tactic, but it was very doable.


There are plenty of other melee-based builds that can handle those baddies, too - without epic spells etc. I've been trying to dance around it, but what I am trying to point out is that if your PC is having struggles with the epic baddies, either you have work to do on investments(stat buys)/upgrades, your build may need adjustments, or you may just need a party to tackle those challenges. Its not an issue with the enemies, or the system... its a matter of how you approach it.

Those baddies are as tough as they come, yes. Non-optimized builds will really feel that challenge, but I have seen Alistair Synge take them solo, and he is nowhere near a min/max build by any means, and has no epic spells. Manny just made the investments in upgrades, prepares properly (lots of heals), and knows the best ways to apply his character's strengths. I am certain that Skywatcher can drop them as well, it may be an issue of preparation, tactics, or investment - but I believe you can do it. If you want to investigate the matter further, we can run the DR and look at things.

The solution is not to 'nerf' what epic casters can get. Crideas, for example, still gets messed up when he runs the DR if I make a mistake, or do not play him effectively... even *with* his epic spells. Being ascended is also a huge reason he does as well as he does, and that should never be expected or overlooked. I had to put in a lot of time and extra investment to reap that benefit, just to make it 'easier'. He also occasionally runs out of epic magic, even with the maximum number of castings available. There is no call, or reason to take things away from anyone. Epic casters who have not made the same investments Crideas has made can be extremely challenged by that content. I have seen it many times when I shadow players as Mythgar.

The main advantage that a spellcasters can have is a knowledgeable player. Spellcaster classes reward tactics and preparation much more than melee classes. Its how the system is designed - if you charge ahead willy nilly as a caster, you get messed up. Melee PCs can survive that in most cases.... but the epic content in Aenea is designed to punish poor planning and reckless abandon. It forces melee PCs to be creative and tactical - spellcaster PCs just have the "advantage" of being forced to take that approach by default.

I have put the time and effort in to practice and learn what spells work best, but others who are still learning may not know what I do, and cannot be expected to. The epic seeds currently available can buy them the breathing room they need to survive long enough to learn.

The bar in the DR is set pretty high once you get to the Tunnels of Despair. It should be. The argument that casters have it easier only applies if the player knows how to make the most of their PCs abilities, and with that in mind... melee PCs should have the same requirement for success. If someone is struggling, the issue is not epic magic... nor is it caster vs. melee.... its just a matter of preparation and approach.

Yes, the 'big epic' sections of DR require either power build or tactical thinking/playing.   It *is* possible to take down nemesis even without crit immunity and sky high AB, or even spells.  I've done it with a PC who's not a spell caster, and would go splat pretty fast meleeing nemesis.  Her tactic is traps rather than spellcasting or brute force meleeing or ranged combat (low str sling user, not exactly batting high damages).

Gron and the epic orcs tend to fall into that category as well.  They're hard to hit, but there's more ways to take them down than just spellcasting or brute force fighting.  Not as easy as those two options, or as fast, but possible.

That being said.... epic magic is an investment, and a bit more so than just the base XP to get to the levels to have access to 9th and lower spells.  Having a good return on the investment is not unheard of.

I do think the AC seeds should scale a bit, but I don't think the +20 limit should be excluded either... just not easy to get for lower level PCs.

MannyJabrielle wrote:I do think the AC seeds should scale a bit, but I don't think the +20 limit should be excluded either... just not easy to get for lower level PCs.

This is totally valid. When a spellcaster first gains access, unless they have built and invested proactively to access the higher spellcraft DCs, it makes sense they would not be able to immediately gain the +20 AC effects. It should,however, be something that is available if they want to invest towards it as they gain levels.

Totally agreed. You can, for example, take 21 mage levels as a warrior even just to make yourself nearly invulnerable and completely focus on offense. Mechanically, I don't see much reason not to do that, honestly.

Then again, this can't be avoided without some sort of level modifier, which I guess wasn't exactly the suggestion here.

Another thought on the new system:

Instead of having an option to have a spell cost a chunk of XP every single time it is cast (this sucks simply because no one spell is ever going to earn you as much XP as the current costs, so you will never break even, meaning you probably wont ever use that spell since you can pretty much always get the job done with other spells without choosing to lose more XP than you gain)  - what about spending extra XP during the *research process* in order to lower the casting DC of the spell?

I second that. There's no situation I can see it worth using in.

Suggestion: add an option to customize the casting VFX/sound or diversify them. I'd put priority on it over customizing the look of spells themselves, because we use our spells far more often than we see others do it, and they lost a lot of oopmh! for me when I saw every one of the ones I've researched so far had the same incantation.