Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

Hi, all.

So, I'm finally back to putting serious thought into the redesign of epic spells here in Aenea. In fact, it's been bugging me for three days now as I do household chores and bake a birthday cake. Then I thought "Hey! You've got a bunch of great players. Why not see what you can come up with with their help?". So, I'm taking my own advice.

Here's what I've got going so far...

Requirements:
1. epic character (21st level and up)
2. Epic Magic feat (already automatically added for epic level clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards)

Epic Spell Research:

Epic casters would need to "research" each epic spell. This would involve access to a specific (not yet made) "great" library area + gold + xp + high enough Spellcraft skill to cast the desired spell.

In this "great library", casters would custom design their own epic spells by interacting with certain placeables and using certain VC commands (which would be explained in the descriptions of the placeables). At the end of picking the different options for the spells, a final cost in gold and experience would be calculated. If paid by the caster, that spell gets permanently (barring reincarnation/ascension) added to a list of up to 50 epic spells the caster "knows". I'd make the default epic spells options for those "in a hurry".

Tentative research VC commands (only functional in the "great library" chamber):
- research epic spell xxxxxx (replace xxxxxx with desired name of spell...this is permanent, so think carefully! Other players will see this when you cast your epic spell as your character "shouts out" the name of the spell (no not in the shout channel))
- research epic seed xxxxx (replace xxxxx with desired "seed" effect, numbers found on crystal descriptions in library)
- research epic mod xxxxx (replace xxxxx with desired "modifiers" from one or more categories)
- research epic review (can use more than once to review stats of the new spell in progress)
- research epic restart (start over from scratch if a mistake was made or you just run out of time to play)
- research epic finalize (if you have less than 40 epic spells known (50 for brainy wizards), have enough spare gold and xp and high enough Spellcraft, you get the spell added to your list)

Epic Spell Seeds: These will be placeables in the "great library" that provide a base to build epic spells from. When researching a new epic spell, you will enter a specific code number found on the seed crystal placeable to determine the actual effect of the spell. Following are the seeds and some code number examples (not necessarily the final code numbers or DCs in the scripting, as this is a work in progress).

Afflict
10100: -3 saves, skills checks, attack rolls (Spellcraft DC: 20)
10101: -10 spell resistance (Spellcraft DC: 50)
10102: -10 Strength (Spellcraft DC: 50)
10103: -10 Dexterity (Spellcraft DC: 50)
Animate Dead
Armor
Banish
Compel
Conceal
Conjure
Destroy
Dispel
Energy
Fortify
Heal
Life
Reveal
Slay
Summon
Transform
Transport
Ward

Epic Spell Casting:

To cast an epic spell, the caster would "use" one of the focus's special powers on a target creature/location/placeable. Upon a successful Spellcraft check, the caster would then cast the spell. Each epic spell would have to be assigned one of eight "slots" ahead of time via VC command for this form of activation.

An additional option will be to use a VC command (for picking spell) along with the Epic Magic feat (for targeting/actual casting).

The Spellcraft DC would be determined by the options chosen during spell research. Failure to meet or exceed the DC would mean a wasted daily "casting". Outside of combat, the caster would automatically "take 20". In combat, it would be a d20 roll. There'd be an option you could set to always "take 10" when in combat, and a new feat that would give you an extra +10 just for epic spellcasting.

The Spellcraft roll will be modified for non-wizards, removing the "Int modifier" and replacing it with the modifier for the main casting ability of the epic spellcasting class. I figured a sorcerer heavily invested in Charisma should get as much casting ability as a similarly invested wizard. Same goes for clerics/druids and Wisdom.

Epic castings per day: Like PnP D&D, I'm looking at 1 casting per 10 (base) ranks in Spellcraft. But, since in PnP a caster can just make everyone wait a day for more castings (by casting charm person, if necessary ), I also want to add 1 casting per 10 caster levels (for up to 8 castings of any known epic spells per day at 40th level). So...8 hellballs, or 8 greater ruins, 5 epic wardings and 3 dragon knights....

So, what does everyone think?

Of course, existing epic casters would get a bonus relevel scales item in order to redo their epic caster levels and find other uses for those open feats previously taken up by epic spells.

I don't know to much bout the in's and out's of epic casting, but me likey!

Would this mean that cleric and druid will be able to cast epic mage armor and epic warding now?

Papa-Lenin wrote:Would this mean that cleric and druid will be able to cast epic mage armor and epic warding now?

Yes, but not now...when I get the time to makes changes to the system.

It sounds very nice, much better imitating PnP system. Perhaps instead of tossing all the seeds to one 'great library' it would be more interesting to add them to various bosses around the world? To keep things a bit more interesting.

I've said this once... but I still think it would be great to incorporate the work below into Aenea .. I like how that system works... it sounds similiar to the above req's too (esp version 2)....

Epic Spellcasting System

I'll give some more thought behind specifically what you've got already, because it sounds good... but I'm no caster, and my prowess and knowledge of the magic system in general isn't as good as others here....

RustyDios:

I looked at that epic casting system. Some good ideas, but still not as much freedom to customize as I'd like...

They add various spell seeds, researched spells, and actually spells as feats that can be added to your PC's "skin" as item properties (actually a pretty good idea), but you're limited to 7 at a time (due to being added to the epic spells radial menu). Plus, it adds a crapload of item blueprints and tons of scripts to the module.

Papa-Lenin:

I wouldn't want to limit the "seeds" to being dropped by different boss creatures. The spells are going to be expensive to research already, and I think a PC should be able to research almost any epic spell he/she is interested in without having to jump through more hoops.

So... what sort of effects are we talking here? I could list a plethora of ideas for spell properties.... but that all depends on what's going to be a viable
property. That also depends on what equation is going to be used for calculating the DC.

Over all, I love the idea. I've always been rather disappointed with the relatively weak epic spells...


Also, for reference, how many are we looking at being able to learn at one time?

evilkittenofdoom wrote:So... what sort of effects are we talking here? I could list a plethora of ideas for spell properties.... but that all depends on what's going to be a viable
property. That also depends on what equation is going to be used for calculating the DC.

Over all, I love the idea. I've always been rather disappointed with the relatively weak epic spells...


Also, for reference, how many are we looking at being able to learn at one time?

Types of effects will vary depending on the "seeds" chosen.

With this, you'll be able to make some very powerful (but harder to cast) epic spells.

You could learn many, many epic spells.

So.. what exactly are you looking for suggestions on?

I think this thread sounds ... well, epic!

However, I've only ever played a sorceress, so I will be of little use here...

But expect to see my 2 cents regardless! (by the way, when did they take the cent character off of the keyboard?)

evilkittenofdoom wrote:So.. what exactly are you looking for suggestions on?

Does this sound good to you? Is there anything you think could improve on this? Have you ever played an epic caster in D&D (and if so, any insight on this?)? Any suggestions for images for "seed" images or "epic scroll" icons?

My only real exposure to epic magic is via NWN...and even then I've got only one epic caster for a character.

I think it would be cool if the epic scroll icons were all similiar to the old granted/spell / identify/legend lore icons .... ... a coloured transparent spell image... I always liked that those looked kinda like "floating magical spells " in my inventory... ..

For the base Epic Spells using the icons we have now would be good out of familarity... depending on what the new spells do I'm sure we (you) could design a spell icon to match (I mean you've currently around 100+ spells with neat icons)..... ...

What I do think though is maybe we should have the epic spell icon a 2x2 icon (book size) and the seed icons 1x1 (scroll size)... this way to me signifies that the seeds are smaller then the epic spells and you need seeds to make an epic spell (which is a larger and more powerful spell then normal spells)... .... ..


I noticed that the Epic Spell cast system above would add a cr*pload of junk to Aenea, but I wanted to use it as a starting point for brainstorming our own system... it has alot of good ideas... ...

Personally I don't mind the 7 epic spells at any one time thing using the radial, afterall how much epic knowledge can you keep in your brain for casting at any one time ? ... ... the way that system also uses the rest button could be transfered to the pc crystal too...

I love the idea of customizable epic spells. (Then again, I usually like the idea of customizable anything) It grants flexibility to players, and allows players to use epic spells as another way to express their character's personality.

I am liking the idea as stated thus far

8 epic spells per day is very tasty. Being able to customize the epic spells known in-game is a phenomenal idea but I am worried that the scripting end of things will be uncooperative *crosses fingers*

I realize the reason why, and I understand the intent, but I dislike the idea of a spellcraft check not based on Int mod for non-wizards.

Int mod is fine for spellcraft checks (like identifying spells being cast for counterspelling in combat), and yes, this lends an advantage to Wizards, I know. I believe this was intended as part of game design, PnP and NWN.

Provided the seed combinations do not result in prohibitively high DCs, however, this shouldnt be a large limitation on what seed combos other classes are able to handle. (And remeber that gear can give spellcraft bonuses up to +50 in order to simulate higher Int on the checks, even if it wont affect castings per day).

Mainly I just dont want to totally homogenize epic magic (although some standardization would be very good, such as allowing all epic classes access to all the 'seeds' - so that clerics bard and druids could most likely cast spells like epic mage armor, etc). By design its based off spellcraft skill and I think that is a design choice made with the intent of intelligence having a defnite impact on the heights to which a PC can rise in their scale of viable epic spell DCs.

In the end I believe the significance of that will truly be determined by how the seeds are designed. Basically the highest DC combinations would be easiest for heavy Intelligence invested wizards (though not impossible for other PCs to achieve, unless specifically designed with that intent). So how you plan out the seeds is a HUGE factor. If the high ends seeds are more offensive and 'arcanish' in nature, it would make sense that the class most dedicated to magical research would have an edge based on their primary stat.

Wizards were designed to be the guys who 'know' more about the mechanics of magic, and epic spells are when that knowledge really starts to show their true power (especially in the realm of offensive magic, as arcane casters best and most solid offense is magical in nature by necessity, as their class restrictions and progressions dont lend well to offense of any other type really). The stereotypical wizard having a higher int mod for those spellcraft checks wouldnt unbalance epic magic, and from a roleplay standpoint makes a ton of sense.

For the most part, the common seed combinations for defensive effects (or summoning etc) would result in DCs that are accessible to just about all epic casters. Its really just the high end seeds/combos that would end up slanted towards wizards, I think... so deciding which seeds are in that 'class' will be critical in balancing the system.

I would say, let the spellcraft check remain as is, but carefully craft and design the seeds and their DCs. The seeds are where deviation from PnP standards would fit best, I think, as in my experience the published seeds in the Epic level handbook seem somewhat arbitrary in their mechanical values, so adjusting them wouldnt cause much problem.

I could go either way with the spellcraft check.

I will say however, if it does remain based of int modifier, to give an edge to wizards, a fuller implementation of the epic handbook rules should be done as well to give clerics and druids their due "edge" as well.

The rules out of the epic level handbook list knowledge arcana/nature/religion as being extremely relevant for creating epic spells (an epic wizard with loads of arcana could not create an epic spell with the life or healing seeds without at least X amount of ranks in nature or religion).

We already have the knowledge arcana/nature/religion skills, and this would be the perfect opportunity to actually have them DO something.

(and on a side note... they need to be fixed methinks? My epic druid has a nature knowledge skill of +2, while my epic wizard has +28... that's simply just not right in the slightest... perhaps tweak them to be controllable as with regular skills?).

I would also suggest using the DC's listed in the epic level handbook as a guideline, but not forbidden to be changed. I just glanced through it, and on the text it was listing a 64th wizard in an example of creating an epic spell, and a 100+ DC is within the grasps of a 60+ character, but not within the reasonable grasp of a 40th level max character. It COULD be achieved via ascension and a couple voucher items with +10 spellcraft on them, but it'd be a really be a bad idea to have DC's hitting numbers to make ascension and voucher items a necessity even for an Int focused/spellcraft focused pure class wizard, even on the most complicated spells.

As for other concerns.

PLEASE don't do non-transferable scrolls.

It would be MUCH better to do it with a VC system rather than inventory clutter, but if it does have to be inventory clutter, please keep the scrolls transferable so they can be stuck in a scroll case... and please nothing larger than 1x1 icons.

Inventory clutter would REALLY turn me off from epic magic, even if it was really good.

With my spell casters, limited quickslots is already a problem without adding in X number of items for the epic spells as well, which would then require keeping the inventory window open, and that would suck completely.

I would suggest the VC system for the simplicity of play as well as a lack of inventory clutter.

The MotM vc system works as a great standard.

When a PC creates an epic spell, that "spell" gets added to their epic spell list. To view what spells one has researched, type a VC command like the command to view captured MotM beasties.

To USE the spell, enter in the selection command (something like maybe ESC 1 (Epic Spell Casting), and then use the "epic spell casting feat" on the target for the spell, much like when using the granted diety spell feats. The spell fires off according to the effects of the stored info in the VC list for that particular spell.

The "spell slots" for the epic spells could be tracked as well without needing multiple non-transferable scrolls clogging inventory. The shifter shapes can be used as an example. The abilities of the specific shapes are, by the icon "unlimited", but they are limited use by certain variables... when you reach your limit of uses for the given ability, you're given an error message and the ability doesn't fire off.

The epic spell castings can be done the same via the "epic magic feat". Set it to "unlimited uses" by the NWN engine standard, but the script firing it off will keep track of not just which spell is used, but how many epic spell castings you have available. When you're out of epic castings, get the error message informing you of such, even if you can still 'target' creatures/objects with the feat itself.

Another concern....

Multi-classed epic spell casters... actually only ONE scenerio where this will happen, but it is a possibility... PM 15+epic cleric or epic druid. What considerations will be made for such builds as they are epic spell casters in both divine and arcane magic? If the key-casting stat for the spellcraft check is used, how would such a build determine what casting stat to use?

I totally agree on the knowledge skills, it would be awesome if they governed access to some of the relevant seeds. It would also be nice to somehow be able to exert some control over how your knowledge skills grow as you level up (ie. each class gets X number of points, and using a VC command you can spend the points as you wish).

Seed DCs from the epic level handbook do make decent guildelines.... but for NWN I do think they will require changes for balance reasons, especially the example listed. Most of the seed combinations should be accessible to everyone, and most combinations that focused Wizards have trouble with should not require ascension or gear to achieve for a focused Int/Spellcraft wizard... this will allow other epic casters to achieve them via ascension and/or gear/feats.

I am not against one or two seed combos that are very specific in their effects that are geared towards wizards only (with nasty DCs), but considering that arcane magic is not supposed to heal, and divine magic is superior in certain realms of buffing... It would only be fair to have seeds available to divine casters that arcanists can not access as well (though the DCs should be lower to compensate).

I am not thrilled about non-transferable scrolls either, however.... the idea of needing to set what spell I want with a VC command is also unattractive... as it seems I would only be able to have 1 selected at a time for use with the feat, thus changing my epic spell would require typing... and typing during combat = suck.

I think a radial menu is the only effective solution, but being limited to 7 options also sucks. Is there any way to attach the epic magic feat to a higher ranked radial (like off the special abilities radial) so that a few sub radials could be tacked on for the spells? Perhaps on the sub radials have them correspond to the 'main/superior' seed for each epic spell known (epic spells could have a 'main' seed and secondary seeds when created) which would effectively allow the character to fill the entire subradial with epic spells that use the same main seed.

The quickslots are going to be a problem no matter what, unfortunately.... as I already don't have enough, and this is just one or several more things to try to squeeze in.... but if the spells are subradials off the epic magic feat... it would help a little. Sort of like how a rod with multiple abilities can be quickslotted, and to change the ability you want, you can just right click the quickslot and select a new ability from the radial. That could be done in combat.

I think keeping the spellcraft check as it is, with int as the modifying stat is good, but then using the knowledge skills to regulate access to seeds is also excellent. This would also resolve the issue of PM+Divine class both being able to use epic magic (though for casts/day, I dont think the arcane and divine caster levels should stack, and having two separate selections of epic magic would be a little unbalancing because the full spellcraft skill ranks would be used for both). Perhaps just have the levelup script check for the 'epic magic' feat, and if the PC already has it, the class they levelled up in when they gained the feat becomes their epic magic class, and they cannot gain the feat again with any other class.

The two separate casting totals would be better I think, as that's how it's done in PnP (based of knowledge arcana/nature/religion ranks). That also allows the intent of such characters who are duel focused as both arcane and divine casters.

The reason to go with just one epic magic selection was mainly because there is only one class combo that can raise the issue, and the PM class (even if it was fixed to properly gain 1/2 caster level) is not a full spellcasting class, despite access to epic spells. As it stands now, a PM + other casting class combo simply doesnt work as a hybrid caster (as the arcane side will just suck).

The spellcraft skill would gain each one 4 casts/day for a total of 8 uses before considering any caster levels which I personally think is unbalanced as well.

I can see PMs getting use of epic spells if that is the only class that grants access to the PC, but if the PC has PM and another epic casting class, I think the other class should be the controlling one for epic magic (as the PC has invested more levels than into PM and it would be a full spellcasting class).

I think giving two separate allottments of epic spells per day for splitting your magical focus would be against the intent of epic magic. The epic spells are what you gain for dedicating yourself to one magical path. Splitting focus should hamper, not increase, your ability to use epic magic.

At least thats what I believe.

PM's are a full spellcasting class though. They can have access up to 9th level spells, and even though the caster level is reduced compared to a pure class wizard or sorc, a PM with 10 wiz, sorc, or bard is still boasting 25 caster levels (if they got the 1/2 caster level as they do in PnP). The criteria for getting epic magic is ability to cast 9th level spells and epic character, so I really don't see why a special rule baring a specific class from it would be necessary

I'll have to disagree that it's against the intent of epic magic as well, as going by the epic level handbook, it mentions a case of a caster having both divine and arcane epic spells, and specifically lists the criteria for determining the allotment of epic spells available to such a character... that simply would not have been put in if it was contrary to the intent.

And on that note as well, the introduction of PMs in the tome and blood manual mention PMs often supplementing their skillset with a divine caster class, which also lends credence to the idea of a duel-focused arcane/divine caster.

The only differentiation from the standard PnP rules and the suggested system so far is in PnP, the casts per day get worked off the relevant knowledge skills rather than the spellcraft check.

If we use the knowledge skills for the researching seed's DC, it probably would be good to work the casts-per-day off those skills as well to be closer to the PnP rules in that regard as well. For a PM/Divine combo, the casts per day would still be split between the two classes, but the character would have to invest in both skills to gain the high numbers for extra castings.

We have a slight definition difference in the usage of the term "full spellcasting class". So, to clear that up, I will explain the definition that I use, and understand as the meaning of the term.

A "full spellcasting class" is a class that gains appropriate caster level increases each time the character gains a level in the class. Any class that gains caster levels at a less than 1 per 1 rate with class levels is not a "full spellcasting class".

We will simply have to agree to disagree on the point of whether or not a dual-caster should have the ability to gain more uses of epic magic per day than a pure single classed caster. I think the intent of both the PnP rules and 's conversion is to reward focused characters with more usage and potency in their epic magic. If I am wrong, please correct me .

I don't disagree on using the knowledge skills for casts/day provided the PC can choose what knowledge skills they gain at levelup somehow.

One thing to note about the epic spellcasting rules in the Epic levl handbook is that while they are much better than what NWN offers, they are more cobbled together and less streamlined than any other part of the magic system. Using them as a guideline is a good idea, yes. NWN is going to need adjustments for them to work well, however.

Also note that I am not advocating barring PM's from epic spells, not even a little bit.

I am speaking about the single case (and a rather rare one) where a PM class combo would cause a conflict in the epic magic system as described. In any other case, I think PM's having access to epic spells should be fine. Their caster level (if it gets fixed) will max out at 25, meaning they will have less casts/day than a focused full casting class. What I speak against is a PM combo that gains equal or more casts/day compared to a single-classed focused spellcaster. That smacks of a loophole to me.

I have no issue with a PM combo perhaps gaining access to 'seed' combinations that normally would not be possible (due to divine/arcane class restrictions). It is simply the idea of such a character having equal or increased usage or potency over a focused character that does not seem balanced to me.

Hi folks.

Sorry to be out of the forum for a while, I just did a stint in the ill-department that had me combining nausea with mild migraine symtoms, just bad enough for me to spend 10 straight hours in bed...in the middle of the day....and I missed out on a 10-hour Ninja Warrior marathon I was going to record for my kids.

So, on the epic casting stuff...

I was going with Spellcraft as the relevant skill simply because the "knowledge" skills are background coded and don't allow you to put ranks into them yourself at level-up (there were "issues" when I last tried to add actual new skills). It's a class skill for basically all caster classes. I figured that the "virtual swapping" of Int mod for Cha/Wis mod for the purpose of epic casting would equalize things for epic casters...

Yes, the Int mod is (and always will) be used with Spellcraft for identifying and counterspelling.

I plan on limiting certain epic spell seeds to certain caster classes (fortify/healing/life to clerics/druids, afflict/destroy/energy to sorcerers/wizards). Although this is definitely up to discussion/change.

As far as the "seeds" go, I don't plan on having them be items you carry around. More along the lines of bases of knowledge to build an epic spell with, available to anyone that qualifies. I was thinking like "here's a pillar (or something) for the afflict seed, and the description shows what can be done with this seed (subject to modifiers at the next step)."

As far as divine + PM...hmmm. The script can be written to figure the "class portion" of castings/day based on both. Add the PM + divine levels, divide by 10. A Clr 25/PM 15 would still be 40th level and gain 4 castings/day. I think that the cleric levels would open access to the fortify/heal/life seeds, while the PM levels would open access to the afflict/destroy seeds (leaving "energy" for the sor/wiz). The other castings/day would still come from base ranks in Spellcraft (up to 4 castings/day).

Looking at Spellcraft for casting (not counting ability modifiers):
Level 21: 24 (maxed ranks) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (epic skill focus) = +37
Level 40: 43 (maxed ranks) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (epic skill focus) = +56

Other modifiers: ability increases (up to +11 from level up and items/spells), skill increases from items (up to +50 with dedication and some additions by me in the toolset).

Radial vs. VC vs. item based casting: I'll put more thought into this today.

I plan on getting everything hammered out before I do any scripting/2da editing/icon making/etc. Hopefully it will then be pretty straight-forward when coding.

Just a quick input:

I think the Destroy seed would be better for wizards/sorcs exclusively, and the afflict and energy seeds could be for sorc/wiz/PM.

EDIT: Also, for PM casts/day, at best it should use one half of the PM level, as PMs only get 1 caster level per 2 class levels in PnP.

EDIT 2: On the PM cast level issue, ONLY the PM level should be halved, any Wiz or Sorc levels used to Qualify for PM should grant FULL benefit. So the formula would look something like :

[ClericLevel + DruidLevel + WizardLevel + Sorcerorlevel + BardLevel + .5(PaleMasterLevel - round down)]/10

Edit 3 (LOL): Also, perhaps classes which a PC has not reached epic level in should not contribute to Epic Spellcasting/day. So if Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard, or Sorceror is below 21, they are not included, and if PM is below 15, it is not included. I think that would cinch up another loophole.

EDIT 4: Sheesh! hehe. Also, for Classes/levels determining Seed access, I think the same idea as for casting/day should apply. If the PC does not have enough levels in a class to qualify for epic magic in that class, then that class should not open access to additional epic spell seeds.

Another note/clarify:

The feedback on not using 'non-transferable' items I believe was aimed specficially at the Epic spells a PC knows not cluttering inventory or quickslots, but still being easy to use in combat.

The seeds were assumed to be placeables in the great library area that only come into play during the research process and would never enter a PCs inventory... which sounds perfect to me.

Sort of like how a rod with multiple abilities can be quickslotted, and
to change the ability you want, you can just right click the quickslot
and select a new ability from the radial. That could be done in combat.

This sounds like a good idea to me ... instead of using "Epic Scrolls" ... why not use "epic rods"... a rod can hold up to 8 spells, we just need a copyitemandmodify script to add a new epic spell to an existing rod (creating a rod if one doesn't exist)(much the same way we add any itemproperty to an existing item))...
...the rod for the spell to be added to could be selected using the pc select tool, as part of the research process... ... This would allow players to configure their own epic spells in a way that suits them... ... and possibly save on clutter (how many spells will there be in total anyway?)...

How about we create a rod when we learn a seed ... we could then use the rod as a "local variable storage device", and a vc command to view the seeds we have learned... with the seed "pillars" scattered throughout the world in locations that make sense with refference to that seed.... when we find a lab/library/study area we can put our seeds together to make/learn/create a new epic spell, which gets added as a property to the rod... ....


I'm not sure all the idea's came out from my head as I wanted them too, but it went into overdrive mode for a second or two... then the wife and baby monster interrupted the thought proccess and now it's all gone blank again.... .... .... ...

LOL poor Rusty. Great brainwaves halted by deferred family procedure call

I think 's idea for the seeds is the placeable in the great library is there for everyone to use, and add to an epic spell during the research process (provided the character can access the seed with their class levels). So you wouldn't technically 'learn' the seed. You would use the seed as an 'ingredient' in researching the spell formula, and then you would 'learn' the resulting formula as an epic spell which could be stored in a radial/rod/thingamabobberofsomesort for easy use in combat.

Now... for the seeds. We should make a list of the published seeds. and proposed class access for them to get started. Then we can discuss new seeds and their DCs and application.

Published Seeds and DCs(with my suggestions on class access):

Spoiler:

So, this way Druids and Clerics wouldnt be so much with the afflicting or the destroying (with notable deific exceptions), but would be good at Heal and Life. Bards would lack Transform and Destroy, but also have Heal and Life. Sorcerors and Wizards lack Heal and Life, but have Afflict and Destroy. Pale masters cannot access destroy, but have all other wizard/sorc seeds.

I admit that Clerical Deities definitely deserve more attention regarding seed access. This is just to get the ball rolling for discussion.

Druids and clerics of other deities should probably have additional specific restricted seeds added to the list for them with mechanics and descriptions that fit the theme of the deity and capabilities of the respective spell lists. Pale Masters might also need an additional specific restricted seed to compensate them for loss of the destroy seed.

Just so folks who do not own the books can follow along if they wish, here is the relevant charts for other parts of the Epic Spell System. I will post published seed descriptions in a separate post.

Factors:

Spoiler:

Notes on Factors:

Spoiler:

Mitigating Factors:

Spoiler:

Notes on Mitigating Factors:

Spoiler:

The way I'm looking at it, each researched epic spell will not be like a standard NWN spell (or feat). Instead, the "scroll" created at the end of researching will hold certain variables. When the "scroll" is used (no used up, just used), the "spell script" will read those variables to reconstruct the spell and have it take effect.

Something along the lines of:
1. PC activates "epic spell scroll" on an enemy.
2. generic epic spell script reads variables off the scroll (seed, modifiers), combines with caster info (caster level, casting ability modifier, etc.), then if Spellcraft DC is met/exceeded, caster does one of several "casting animations" before the effects happen to the target.

Using a rod would require that there be a different "epic spell" for every possible option.

For example:

Using just the Afflict seed with no modifiers, I'm looking at 8 options (each with a Long range, 1 creature target, with a Will save to negate):
-3 saves, skills checks, attack rolls
-10 spell resistance
-10 Strength
-10 Dexterity
-10 Constitution
-10 Intelligence
-10 Wisdom
-10 Charisma

Now, combine with modifiers available for each of these 8 options:
still, silent, double (or permanent) duration, change to a (huge, gargantuan, or colossal) sphere (area effect), increase save DC (by +5 or +10), offset Spellcraft DC by burning XP (multiple values possible), offset Spellcraft DC by burning HP (multiple values possible), offset Spellcraft DC by burning blood of magic (multiple values possible)

It adds up to a lot of options...

I'm going to try to figure out a way to combine two seeds in one spell, but that will be trickier.

Also, seeds won't be "learned", they'll just be available when researching.

SEED DESCRIPTIONS

Each seed description hereafter follows the same format used for 0- to
9th-level spells. An additional line, Spellcraft DC, indicates
the base DC of the Spellcraft check required to cast an epic spell
with this seed.

**********************SEED:AFFLICT

Spoiler:

**********************SEED:ANIMATE

Spoiler:

**********************SEED:ANIMATE DEAD

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: ARMOR

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: BANISH

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: COMPEL

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: CONCEAL

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: CONJURE

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: CONTACT

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: DELUDE

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: DESTROY

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: DISPEL

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: ENERGY

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: FORESEE

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: FORTIFY

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: HEAL

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: LIFE

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: REFLECT

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: REVEAL

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: SLAY

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: SUMMON

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: TRANSFORM

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: TRANSPORT

Spoiler:

**********************SEED: WARD

Spoiler:

On the rod aspect, if you could have 8 "activate unique power" abilities on the rod (which I assume is the ability that the epic 'spell scroll' would use) then you could use VC commands to assign known epic spells to each of the 8 activateable powers of the rod. Quickslot rod, and you can switch between those 8 epic spells.

The variables for 'known' epic spells could be saved in the Character's 'Database' item (the little tiny book icon). That way they could be manipulated and assigned to rod slots with VC commands prior to combat.

The ones I'm looking at using:

Afflict
Animate Dead
Armor
Compel
Conceal
Destroy
Energy
Fortify
Heal
Life
Reveal
Slay
Summon
Transform
Transport
Ward

The unused seeds don't really have much adaptability to NWN (such as Animate to make animated objects, Banish for doing what the banishment spell is for, Contact for contacting other-planar creatures (more of a RP device), Conjure for making inanimate objects, Delude is for illusions, which don't translate well to NWN, Dispel because there's already disjuction for 9th level and lower spells, Forsee is more of a "live DM needed effect, Reflect would be a pain to code for).

I figure I'd make multiple options available from each seed (such as different damage levels from destroy), then have the modifiers work off the seeds for expanding on ranges, areas, save DCs, etc.

Okay.. maybe now would be the time I realise I know absolutely nothing about Epic spellcasting and how it should be, but the above all sounds good ... ... ...

I wouldnt mind seeing less flexible forms of Banish, Conjure, and Dispel.

The thing about these seeds is that they could be used to allow epic magic to do things like...

For dispel, the caster could hit a target with beholder-like antimagic, automatically removing all magical effects, and giving them spell failure for a short time (maybe 1 round).

For Banish, with a high enough spellcraft DC, an epic version of the banishment spell could simply not allow any save or SR at all. Cast the spell and all summons automatically go poof immediately.

For Conjure, there could be a few more options than just an epic mummy and an epic red dragon. Beefier minions means higher spellcraft DC. Imagine summoning a prismatic dragon hehe :-D ... or even a Darkfire Reaver!

Summon is the one used for bringing forth minions. And yes, I plan on adding options for more varied minions.

Good points on Banish and Dispel.

Oh blargh.... flipping back and forth between forums and A+ books and ExpertTek website is frying my brain....

For conjure, it could have options to conjure specific useful items from the palette for 'free'. Like... hey.... I need a catapult or a ballista right now! Or, a portable encampment, explosives (stacks of acid or fire bombs or even alchemist dragon eggs), preassembled epic traps, or maybe even certain placeable objects (altars, chests/barrels-maybe even with random goddies in them, sun shelters, and visual effects).

For the actual use of epic spells, I would really not want a scroll system with items in inventory. Perhaps a comprimise though? A duel-system of epic spells being activated via VC commands and via the items?

I really am focused on that because when the cleric granted spells were by widgets, I honestly did not use them, and they were a pain taking up inventory space. Activating the epic spells via the vc command + epic magic feat is just much more attractive to me, although I can see why it woudln't be to a player like Dave who has an aversion to typing as I do to activating inventory items.

The rod method wouldn't work most likely, if the module uses tag based scripts, all 8 unique powers on the rod would all fire off the same script (that with the same tag as the rod itself).

For the seeds used, yeah, I like Dave's thinking in that for say, conjure, there's multiple non-damage dealing combat effects possible. To put it simply, being able to conjure cloud cover would be an epic vampire mage's favorite must-have spell. Conjuring an altar... totally something I could see a cleric doing.

I'm making my suggestions for the various options on what each seed could do. I'm not giving options for certain seeds, such as Compel and Transform, as I'm not sure as how those should be implemented. Note that some of these are my personal interpretation of how to implement each seed to NWN

Dispel - The mage's worst nightmare....

Spoiler:

Ward - You don't get a much more defensive property, now do you? There are countless options that I could suggest for this one..

Spoiler:

Heal/Life - Relatively straightforward, until you put a few more things that might be neat to see with an epic-spell heal...

Spoiler:

Conceal/Reveal - Useful for almost anyone, but needs to be practical too...

Spoiler:

Slay - Has so much potential for improving death spells....

Spoiler:

Armor - AC.... the basis of almost any characters defenses.... and oh so many ways once could enhance it....

Spoiler:

Fortify/Afflict - It's got some interesting potential, but how useful it is depends on what is being fortified...

Spoiler:

Animate Dead - A standard summoning spell, that could have a few interesting side-effects with it...

Spoiler:

Destroy - Your one-stop death spell for those pesky, non-living targets...

Spoiler:

Energy - The most basic of basic spell types, just send tons of damage at your enemies and they're sure to fall....right?

Spoiler:

For the rod idea, if need be, could add 8 new properties to the item property list. These 8 'activate unique power' properties would each call the variables stored in a different epic spell 'slot'. While a caster could know more than 8 epic spells, they wouldnt be able to go beyond casing 8 epic spells in a day, so on that front, the rod idea would cover the bases, as you could slot the 8 spells you are likely to use that day.

If circumstances conspire to where you find yourself needing a different epic spell, you can always use the vc command to swap a different one into a slot of your choice. The idea is that such a situation would be the exception rather than the rule

Using manny's idea, the 'activate unique power' abilities on the rod could all be listed as infinite use, but when you have used up your epic castings for the day, while you could attempt to cast another, it would simply return an 'out of juice' message.

Oh and for Conjure, yes yes yes yes.... Manny's idea for conjuring cloud cover to change the weather and stop sun damage is *awesome*.

Ressurection epic spells shouldn't be a problem... contingent ressurection's one of the 'premade' spells listed in the epic handbook, and I do quite like the idea of my asis cleric researching that one, or even a AoE'd one for party fun.

We already have mechanics in the game that do much of that (GoZ's, contingency, ect), so an epic spell working along those lines would great too.

daveyeisley wrote:For the rod idea, if need be, could add 8 new properties to the item property list. These 8 'activate unique power' properties would each call the variables stored in a different epic spell 'slot'. While a caster could know more than 8 epic spells, they wouldnt be able to go beyond casing 8 epic spells in a day, so on that front, the rod idea would cover the bases, as you could slot the 8 spells you are likely to use that day.

If circumstances conspire to where you find yourself needing a different epic spell, you can always use the vc command to swap a different one into a slot of your choice. The idea is that such a situation would be the exception rather than the rule

That's be totally workable.

Doesn't have to be a rod per se either, but a new inventory 1x1 item.

MannyJabrielle wrote:Ressurection epic spells shouldn't be a problem... contingent ressurection's one of the 'premade' spells listed in the epic handbook, and I do quite like the idea of my asis cleric researching that one, or even a AoE'd one for party fun.

We already have mechanics in the game that do much of that (GoZ's, contingency, ect), so an epic spell working along those lines would great too.

Maybe the contingent whole party ressurect could set a variable on each party member that would allow them to use a special VC command the next time they end up in the great hall that would resurrect them for free?

MannyJabrielle wrote:

That's be totally workable.

Doesn't have to be a rod per se either, but a new inventory 1x1 item.

The rod idea was to ensure that the item would have sub radials because I wasnt totally sure about a 1x1 item being able to support 8 sub abilities.... but in retrospect I think you are right.... and 1x1 would be preferable by far.

If it's a new base item being created it could have an unlimited (99) number of "maximum spell slots" .... ... the problem I can forsee is trying to differentiate between which one you want to use, and how they work...

A host of "new" item properties (lets say "Epic Stored Spell Activation I - VIII") could be added to the item (be that a 1x1 inventory item if needed).. and a mix of VC command to assign an epic spell to the item use could be achieved ... then it'll be a case of assigning a spell to the use, and activating as normal..... ... ((at max we're going to have 8 epic spells a day, it wouldn't matter if "slots I - IV" are all filled with "hellball", or if each slot was a different spell.. we'd need a seperate counter for how many spells has been cast today))....

I must say I'm kinda against the idea of having "loads" of epic widgets myself... there must be better (more streamlined) ways of doing things... As MJ stated above, when the clerical abilites were all widgets they seldom got used by me too (and just filled up inventory space, "forgotten about").. now they are feats, I use them all alot more often.... ...

We know from the tp/ally/MotM "slots" that we can store various bits of "dynamic" info in a database-style slot system, the trick would suggest how we can merge a VC system with an item use system....((which I think we already have somewhere, but nothings coming to mind as an example))... ...

I think that what I'm getting from the above is that given time and space Dave (and many others) don't mind having to set things up "before combat", possibly using VC commands.... it's during the hectic throws of combat that typing in VC commands becomes a pain-in-the-a*** and that's when/why we need item based activation (but we'd much prefer a "1 item to rule all castings" item then a multiple item casting system ....

??

Everyone following ?? Did I get all that correct ??

RustyDios wrote:
...((at max we're going to have 8 epic spells a day, it wouldn't matter if "slots I - IV" are all filled with "hellball", or if each slot was a different spell.. we'd need a seperate counter for how many spells has been cast today))....

In this case, the 'separate counter' would likely be an odd number of charges, and the new 'epic spell' property would use up 2 charges (thus at the end of it's uses for the day, it would retain 1 charge, therefore not destroying the item. Upon resting, the charges would restore to their proper amount for the available number of epic spell casts)

The "separate counter" is easy to do. Just assign 8 uses to the Epic Magic feat, then reduce it to the proper uses/day upon sleeping. Have the epic spell script check for remaining uses before taking effect...if uses remain, decrement remaining feat uses by 1 and cast the spell, if not, nothing happens.

After testing in the toolset, going a "single casting item" route limits that item to 8 "castable spells". In the baseitems.2da file, I tried modifying rods to cast 20 spells. I tried making a new item that could cast 20 spells. Both options wouldn't let me add more than 8 (must be a hard-coded limit) in the toolset.

I could see doing a hybrid of item and VC activation. I was personally thinking about having each spell "stored" on a 1x1 item in inventory, with a tag that would allow use via the Select tool (for targeting) and a VC command (for activation). The item could be activated itself from inventory or quickslot, and would get a 1x1 container to store all the epic spells in (up to 35 of them, since containers have 7x5 space). Working with a simple container system would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar and allow the use of icons to show at least different seeds used to make the epic spells.

I'm going to start editing the initial post in this thread to reflect the development of all of this.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
The "separate counter" is easy to do. Just assign 8 uses to the Epic Magic feat, then reduce it to the proper uses/day upon sleeping. Have the epic spell script check for remaining uses before taking effect...if uses remain, decrement remaining feat uses by 1 and cast the spell, if not, nothing happens.

If not... quick bit of feedback that you can cast epic magic but can't count to 8, and nothing happens .... ... this sounds ace, and gives the Epic magic feat an actual use...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
After testing in the toolset, going a "single casting item" route limits that item to 8 "castable spells". In the baseitems.2da file, I tried modifying rods to cast 20 spells. I tried making a new item that could cast 20 spells. Both options wouldn't let me add more than 8 (must be a hard-coded limit) in the toolset.

Ah, dammit... I could see the line/colum could be edited was really hoping it would take effect, an 8-spell-max must be hardcoded...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:
I could see doing a hybrid of item and VC activation. I was personally thinking about having each spell "stored" on a 1x1 item in inventory, with a tag that would allow use via the Select tool (for targeting) and a VC command (for activation). The item could be activated itself from inventory or quickslot, and would get a 1x1 container to store all the epic spells in (up to 35 of them, since containers have 7x5 space). Working with a simple container system would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar and allow the use of icons to show at least different seeds used to make the epic spells.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how a container would allow quick swapping around in the quickbar, you'd still need to drag/drop from your inventory to the quickbar, instead of just assigning a new function (like you can with rods/multiple spell items)? .... or am I completely missing a function that bags can do ??

Either way a container to hold all the spells will "save" on inventory clutter... and help organisation freaks (like me).. so it's a good thing... .. but will the spells still be sacrificeable/ interchangeable , or will it be 35 different spells and your done, no more leaning/creating new combinations ?.... also if the spell's can't move "out of the bag", can we limit it to 34 spells so you still have one space to play tetris (erm... I mean, shuffle things about within the bag to organise them how you want them)......

Well, using a container and individual spell items wouldn't be super-quick swapping onto the quickbar, but would involve opening a single container and dragging/dropping. I think it'd end up about as quick as putting a regular 0-9th level spell on there. Not something usually done in the middle of combat anyway.

I'd make the spell items be dropable to make them mobile within the caster's inventory. I can easily make it so that only the original caster can pick them back up if dropped (I don't think another caster should easily benefit from picking up an "epic spell scroll" that was researched (and paid for with gold and xp) by someone else).

As far as a limit of 35 different ones...no. That's just how many will fit in a container and I'll probably make 3 or 4 new small container images just for epic spell holders.

Clarify:

for me, and i think others, the reason using a 1x1 item with sub radial abilities tied to epic spell slots would be superior in combat is this:

with a single item that has 8 separate abilities, you only need ONE quickslot. To switch the spell that quickslot will cast is MUCH easier in combat than having to open inventory, then open a container, then drag and drop on the quickslot. In combat that all just takes WAY too much time. With single item having 8 abilities on a radial, all you have to do is right-click the quickslot and then left click the radial option you want. No inventory opening needed, no drag and drop. It is doable quickly and easily even in combat. AND it only uses up ONE quickslot, but makes that slot able to accomodate all 8 epic spells you might cast in a day.

Also, I think Manny's aversion, which I share if I understand correctly, to having many little items, even in a container or containers is just too much inventory clutter/usage. I think it would be better to store individual epic spell variables in the character's database file itself with the tiny book thingy. VC commands can be used to organize the 8 active slots, and browse thru all epic spells known using functionality similar to the current teleport slots and motm slots, actually a sort of hybrid between both.

Out of combat, the truly important considerations are organization related. How to manage, separate, browse, and order the individual spells. VC slots/commands are perfect for that as they dont eat up module resources.

In combat, it is all about two things. Quickslot efficiency and Ease of Use. It has to be simple and fast, so it will stay fun. Now yes, dedicating 8 quickslots to the 8 epic spells you want to cats that day is easily done out of combat and will be easy to use them in combat.... but it is very quickslot inefficient. Having one quickslot that you drag and drop various epic spells to is quickslot efficient, but slow and complicated to do in combat (anything that forces you to open an inventory window in the middle of a fight just sucks in all honesty).

Thats the basic reasoning behind my suggestions. It all hinges on adding the 8 separate 'unique power' propetties to the item property palette, so that the 1x1 Epic Spellcasting 'nexus' item, if you will, can handle calling different variables from predetermined parts of the character's database so that the player can assign different sets of variables (which would be the data for their known epic spells) on the fly using VC commands usually when out of combat, as stopping to type is likely to get you dead in a fight.

Keep the thoughts comin', folks!