Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

I just want you to know, if you ever cast that on any PC of mine in the midst of an event, I will port back and probably will kill you.

Could this be extended to function on non-undead, non-construct, non-elemental NPCs?

@Maeglin:
Every one of your PCs can "probably kill" any epic spellcaster on the server?
Don't take it personally, but that's rather arrogant, don't you think?

I'm sure with the maturity level of the players here, we won't have any epic casters actually using such an epic spell on another PC's corpse without that player's prior permission.

Plus, it would involve spending tons of gold and a good chunk of xp to research this as a separate epic spell.

As far as using it on NPCs....hmmm...

ends his 5 minute break to make lunch for the older boys and then go back into the toolset.

Lasombra wrote:@Maeglin:
Every one of your PCs can "probably kill" any epic spellcaster on the server?
Don't take it personally, but that's rather arrogant, don't you think?

The only two I have that would be in a party with an epic spellcaster probably could, yes. And I was directing that at Evilkitten, who seemed way too happy to get his hands on such a spell and has killed and injured party members through misapplied spells in the past.

None of those injuries/deaths were purposeful!

Epic Conjure spells...what would you like to be able to conjure?

The list so far:
conjure 1,000 gp
conjure altar to caster's patron deity
conjure alchemist dragon egg
conjure flaming catapult
conjure portable encampment
conjure epic fire trap kit
conjure stack of 5 acid bombs
conjure cloud cover over current area

.. Conjuring one's own ethereal chest from anywhere would be a good thing to do.. (but as it seems a bit buggy, and the option still seems to skip out of the player houses, it could likely cause problems with "free-roaming" chests such as before...)

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Epic Conjure spells...what would you like to be able to conjure?

The list so far:
conjure 1,000 gp
conjure altar to caster's patron deity
conjure alchemist dragon egg
conjure flaming catapult
conjure portable encampment
conjure epic fire trap kit
conjure stack of 5 acid bombs
conjure cloud cover over current area

For conjuring gold, I think the amount should be a bit more than 1k... perhaps 5k?

Full Heal Potions (even if you blew the max 8 epic spellcasts per day, you would only be able
to conjure 8 potions, but even being able to conjure just one could be very useful at times)

Magic renewal Potions (same deal as full heal potions)

Gift of Zolaras

Blood of Magic gem

Elixir of Power

Magic Resistance Potion

Mental Protection Potion

Dwarven Soul Potion

Potion of True Seeing

None of these would be superior to actually casting the relevant spell or having the relevant potion onhand, as it would use an epic spellcasts for the day and require a second action to drink the potion... but they could be handed out to party members who need them, for instance.

In line with conjuring 5k gold, if the item conjured is worth more (in raw gp cost, or just in rarity) then the spell could deduct the difference between 5k and the items value in gold(or one tenth the value in XP) from the caster to create the item.

daveyeisley wrote:For conjuring gold, I think the amount should be a bit more than 1k... perhaps 5k?

Perhaps something in between. The goal is to have it useful, but still reasonable, since the stuff conjured will be permanent (unlike conjuring really valuable stuff in PnP D&D, which would often vanish after a time).

daveyeisley wrote:Gift of Zolaras

The Life seed will create something a bit better (able to do a full rez with no xp penalty), so I'm not going to use this one.

daveyeisley wrote:In line with conjuring 5k gold, if the item conjured is worth more (in raw gp cost, or just in rarity) then the spell could deduct the difference between 5k and the items value in gold(or one tenth the value in XP) from the caster to create the item.

I like the idea of using a small portion of xp for more valuable items, since xp has a much higher value than gp in Aenea.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:I like the idea of using a small portion of xp for more valuable items, since xp has a much higher value than gp in Aenea.

Never underestimate the cost of Dwarf Wizard upgrades

The gold cost for an individual upgrade may not seem like much, but ask anyone who has gone for a bunch of upgrades at once... and they will tell you that gold costs sneaks up on you

Can't count how many times folks have run out of money in the middle of getting upgrades done.... and those upgrades are extremely valuable... making the gold to afford them also very valuable.

I understand research costing XP for epic spells... but please try to keep XP costs of casting the spells themselves very low... crafting, lady shea purchases, and researching the spells is already a sinkhole for XP... I wouldnt want to start having to pay XP for every cool epic thing there is...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:

daveyeisley wrote:Gift of Zolaras

The Life seed will create something a bit better (able to do a full rez with no xp penalty), so I'm not going to use this one.

I like the idea of the life seed being able to produce a superior effect, it should.

Im wondering why it wouldnt be possible to use the conjure seed to make something less powerful/useful?

1. conjuring 2 portals for x amount of time - one at the current location and one at tp slot location
2. low-DC auras
3. decent(scaling?) minions
4. light-effects over current area with DoT
5. djinn merchant with decent prices
6. avatars(AKA improved familiars) with the ability to copy PC's exact appearance and clothes
7. summon alter-ego - change PC's appearance and clothes look to predefined by the player

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:conjure cloud cover over current
area

What is its' purpose? Will this protect vampire PCs from sunlight?

daveyeisley wrote:Blood of Magic gem

I'm against that one. It would make BoMs lose value. They already are too common IMO.

Lasombra wrote:
3. decent(scaling?) minions
5. djinn merchant with decent prices

These ones would probably be better suited by the Summon seed.

6. avatars(AKA improved familiars) with the ability to copy PC's exact
appearance and clothes
7. summon alter-ego - change PC's appearance
and clothes look to predefined by the player

Interesting.... I could do without the alter-ego, but the avatar actually reminds me of the Clone spell.

daveyeisley wrote:Blood of Magic gem

I'm against that one. It would make BoMs lose value. They already are too common IMO.

We will have to disagree that epic casters being able to conjure 8 blood of magic per day (at the cost of losing all epic spellcasting for the day, and perhaps even some Xp and gold) will make BoM lose value.

Lasombra wrote :
"""conjure cloud cover over current area"... What is its' purpose? Will this protect vampire PCs from sunlight?... ""


That was the exact thinking behind this one, cloud cover to block sunlight damage for vampires, drow and shadowchildren .... it is refferenced somewhere in a thread that this was a desired and possibly useful spell function for the conjure seed... but I can't find the refference I'm reffering too.... ...

daveyeisley wrote:These ones would probably be better suited by the Summon seed.

Didn't know they were separate seeds. Though no mention of better summons before should have made me wonder

Lasombra wrote:

daveyeisley wrote:These ones would probably be better suited by the Summon seed.

Didn't know they were separate seeds. Though no mention of better summons before should have made me wonder

Actually, there was mention of better summons. Not sure how you missed it:

daveyeisley wrote:
For Conjure, there could be a few more options
than just an epic mummy and an epic red dragon. Beefier minions means
higher spellcraft DC. Imagine summoning a prismatic dragon hehe :-D ...
or even a Darkfire Reaver!

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Summon is the one used for bringing forth
minions. And yes, I plan on adding options for more varied minions.

Good
points on Banish and Dispel.

daveyeisley wrote:Actually, there was mention of better summons. Not sure how you missed it

I probably didn't but rather forgot about it. Well, nevermind, thanks for the correction. Now I'm puzzled though, seeing as I don't know much about PnP DnD: how exactly do you differ the two? Summoning - living objects, conjuration - non-living?

Lasombra wrote:Now I'm puzzled though, seeing as I don't know much about PnP DnD: how exactly do you differ the two? Summoning - living objects, conjuration - non-living?

Pretty much, yup. Summoning usually means bringing something from another place, while conjuring is pretty much creating something from nothing.

Mass summons would be pretty interesting if possible. I know NWN has only one "summon" slot ,but an army of elementals or something of that sort would be cool.

daveyeisley wrote:I understand research costing XP for epic spells... but please try to keep XP costs of casting the spells themselves very low... crafting, lady shea purchases, and researching the spells is already a sinkhole for XP... I wouldnt want to start having to pay XP for every cool epic thing there is...

Forgot to respond to this part.

Burning XP (adding to XP Debt) for casting epic spells will be an option that is decided upon by the individual epic caster. There will be four options in this regard...the not burning through XP is the default, one of the other three picked during research of the epic spell itself:
burn 0 XP on casting
burn 1000 XP on casting (reducing Spellcraft DC by -10)
burn 2000 XP on casting (reducing Spellcraft DC by -20)
burn 5000 XP on casting (reducing Spellcraft DC by -50)

Holy crap.... that's a lot of XP to burn in one spell. No way you're getting it back with just that spell alone either...

Yeah... in PnP the 'huge sacrifice for incredible effect' spells like wish and miracle are reserved for those really important moments when you just need to have that earth shattering magic to get something done...

That sort of thing doesnt translate well to NWN.... except maybe in a really well run DM event. It sorta requires a plot, and people depending on your success to give the sacrifice meaning... otherwise its just not worth dumping that much XP... you could die and resurrect for less cost than the 5k one, equal or less to the 2k one (depending on char level).... the 1k one you might lose more from dying... but there are only a few situations i can think of that you would get most or all of the XP back at the end of the encounter from the 2k or 5k options.

EDIT: and ugh.... can you imagine.... blowing 5k on an epic spell... and then still dying and losing more XP?

I don't see the XP expense being added to spells that are going to see more than a rare use. You know, that "last ditch, all out, nuke the enemies so nothing but a body bag remains" spell that you hold back from really ever using unless you really, really, really need it.

Your daily use ones are probably going to come in at low enough Spellcraft DCs for you to actually use without adding such a huge penalty for use.

There will also be the option of burning off hitpoints to reduce Spellcraft DCs, but the reductions wont' be nearly as much as with burning XP, since simply popping a full heal potion would undue the costs of even the largest burn (95% of max hitpoints).

I agree with that point of view all the way, with one caveat. The spell that you need a -50 spellcraft DC modifier for, that rips part of your soul and memories out when you cast it.... that spell (if properly designed and used by a caster who can handle near max DC without that reduction) shouldn't leave anything of the enemies behind but a plume of smoke, and maybe some dust or cinders... I am basically saying I think it should have a very very high success rate of clearing the battlefield or obliterating the target, even of the toughest enemies.... on the order of greater than 75% I think... and even if there are survivors, they should be crippled. I know I am not burning 5k xp for a 'maybe'.... I want to know that spell will end the battle.

Even if that spell has a visual that fits it to a T, and is implemented so that the player and onlookers all kinda just go 'whoa.' for a sec afterwards... its too true that you wouldn't cast it unless you really, really, really, need it.... in the course of normal gameplay.... I am struggling with the idea of how we can create the appropriate situation to make the sacrifice worth it.... special events it could be done sure.... but is it worth the expenditure just to research a spell like that if it will only see the light of day on very rare occaision?

Something to ponder, I feel like there is a solution.... Its just not coming to me right now.

Personally I have found that even the toughest of enemies can be taken down with the most basic spells if used properly leaving these super mega field clearing spells useless to me especially if I have to waste precious XP just to cast one of them. Now I do love my big army destroying spells ,but if these super spells are going to have power equal to the xp cost I can only see those with a very limited few of the magic system using them. Most other castors would simply resort to more tactical spells that do the same job ,but over a slightly longer period of time.

I had done plenty of using basic spells to get the job done. It is possible. The problem is, it is not efficient. You can drop most anything with the right spells, but aside from using damage shield spells and letting the baddie hit you, the other damage spells dont get the job done in an efficient number of casts vs. enemies with a high HP total.

The idea is to not have to drink a renewal after every fight

And sometimes, you dont have the time for multiple casts.

Just wondering what the possibility of a "Destruction" seeded spell would be like to have the server shut down for 5 minutes or so... that really would be "end of the world epic magic"... .... or am I taking this "blow-everything-to-hell" thing too far .. ? ?

RustyDios wrote:Just wondering what the possibility of a "Destruction" seeded spell would be like to have the server shut down for 5 minutes or so... that really would be "end of the world epic magic"... .... or am I taking this "blow-everything-to-hell" thing too far .. ? ?

if I didnt know you were joking i would be concerned about ya

Well.... ye have SEEN what Shouri's blade is like haven't ye ??......

*sigh*

Looks like this won't be ready to go by the 16th (4 years online). Seems my twins have taken to being a pain to get to bed at night, sucking up a lot of my "computer time". It's hard to write scripting code in 1-2 minute increments.

Still, I've got 15 of 19 seeds worth of spell code written so far. After I finish the last four, I move on to the "reasearch" process, which should go much faster, since it'll basically be writing code that adds variables to a collection while adding/multiplying integers (for calculating Spellcraft DCs, gp costs, and xp costs for research).

heads off to pick one of them up again that decided he wasn't really ready to sleep...

No worries, ! Real life comes first, as always

You're still moving along at a pretty amazing clip considering all you've got on your plate.

Yeah, real life always comes first... your loyal and devoted Aeneans won't mind a slip or two on the epic magic stuff.... It don't bother us (much) if it comes out "on-time" or not.... just as long as it does finally make it's way into the world at some point, as best as it could possibly be.... and it's that quality over quantity aspect that has so many of us hooked in your world ...

I'm not sure about everyone else but I'd rather wait an extra few months (years) for something to come out fully finished and checked, then get something half-complete "on-time".... ...

Update: I'm still working on this! It's just taking a while, and other things on my list have also been working their way into Aenea.

I figure I've got 95% of the "casting" script written (close to 2000 lines of code). All of the possible effects have been coded, now I just need to get in the ability to limit effects if the caster wants (to just enemies, or just allies, or just good, or just evil, or just demons, or just elementals, etc.).

Next will be coding the "research" portion.

After that's done, I'll finish building that "epic spell research library" and make it functional.

Then of course, there will be the bug fixing stage once it all goes online.

Teaser 1: For those epic spellcasting demon hunters out there, the last effect I coded tonight is one that you target on a control panel for any Wanderer's Portal to force it to open a temporary passage to the Dark Realm.

Teaser 2: Planning on summoning something from another plane to help you in battle? There will be 3 strengths (CR 10, CR 20, and CR 40) of various creatures available. Demons, Celestials, Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water)...all together you'll have 18 different types of planar aid for your battling fun.

Teaser 3: Ever wanted to just send an enemy (or enemies) away? One of the options will be an effect that could send even unwilling targets to one of your stored teleport locations.

Teaser 4: Penguin Power! One effect can turn an enemy (or enemies) into harmless penguins for 12 game hours.

Teaser 5: Dragon Gold! Turn yourself or another creature into the form of a powerful gold dragon!

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Update: I'm still working on this! It's just taking a while, and other things on my list have also been working their way into Aenea.

Teaser 3: Ever wanted to just send an enemy (or enemies) away? One of the options will be an effect that could send even unwilling targets to one of your stored teleport locations.

Isn't this the same as the Farstep Master Lv10 Special Ability "Forceful Push"... I'm just asking for conformation, I've not actually played an FM yet ... ?

Awesome

I do see potential for exploitation of the teleport option (as well as the farstep master ability)... might want to at least disallow using this on teleports to starting areas and towns.

A farstep master's forceful push ability works only within the same area.

If we end up with people sending powerful baddies to places like the Vale, then I'll program in something to block that.

ability to limit effects if the caster wants (to just enemies...

There is all sorts of awesome in this post, but I'm especially pleased to see this... I think anyone who's ever taken friendly magical fire will cheer this particular one!

Just cause I'm being lazy and forget if this was at all mentioned...

Are any of these effects going to be class/deity restricted?

Also; can we choose our own visual effect(s) to go with the spell?

I am with Rusty on the summon cloud cover or summon rain or whatever. A way to summon rain into a zone would make it possible for Vampire characters to participate in DM events, even if at the cost of using up all her epic spell slots!

Update: Aug 1st

Done with the spell functions script! Woo hoo!

Now working on the research library and the research scripting...this may take a little while. I'm adding in 1 clickable placeable object for every effect option, plus the options for duration, save DC, spellcaster level (for SR), area of effect, and target type limitation. Lots of placeables, but much easier to click on rather than search to find the desired option code and enter it into a VC command.

When this all launches, I'll be adding a section for epic magic to the spells page on the main website explaining the whole thing. I'm writing that page as I build the library area so that it can explain the research process and requirements.

*drools*

mechanical questions:

1. Will epic spells be absorbable by spell mantles - ie. will they have a 'spell level'?

2. I remember you mentioning options for penetrating spell resistance, so SR can possibly stop an epic spell... but will they also have schools associated with them? Will school immunities apply?

3. Will spell failure from armor and/or from antimagic prevent the use of epic spells? (I'm really hoping for a 'no' on this)

daveyeisley wrote:*drools*

mechanical questions:

1. Will epic spells be absorbable by spell mantles - ie. will they have a 'spell level'?

2. I remember you mentioning options for penetrating spell resistance, so SR can possibly stop an epic spell... but will they also have schools associated with them? Will school immunities apply?

3. Will spell failure from armor and/or from antimagic prevent the use of epic spells? (I'm really hoping for a 'no' on this)

1. No, and no. They don't technically have a spell level, and ignore spell mantles (they are not stopped by spell mantles and do not use up any of a spell mantle's "level absorption" capability).

2. Technically, epic magic will belong to the Conjuration school (because a spell school has to be included in the spells.2da file). Spell Focus (conjuration) will not apply to spell resistance checks for epic magic. I did add Immunity: Spell School: Conjuration to the list of custom item properties I won't add to custom items (nobody has added it to a custom item before anyway), since I don't want a simple and relatively inexpensive item property to grant immunity to every epic spell.

3. No, and maybe. Spell failure from armor will not prevent using epic magic. Spell failure from anti-magic (or other things that add a spell failure "effect") will apply, but will be considered to be at 1/4 the level (so a 100% spell failure from a beholder's anti-magic would be a 25% for epic magic).

1. Will all casting classes be able to use Epic Magic?

2. How many levels in a casting class are required to use Epic Magic?

Maeglin Dubh wrote:1. Will all casting classes be able to use Epic Magic?

2. How many levels in a casting class are required to use Epic Magic?

1. No. Only those that can cast at least 9th level spells (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard). I'd forgotten about pale master, so I'll have to add that in.

2. 21 (15 for epic pale master).

Will there be a noticable difference between divine and arcane epic magic?

Some effects will only be available to divine epic casters (healing, life), some only to arcane epic casters (energy, destroy). Most types of effects will be available to both.

3. No, and maybe. Spell failure from armor will not prevent using epic magic. Spell failure from anti-magic (or other things that add a spell failure "effect") will apply, but will be considered to be at 1/4 the level (so a 100% spell failure from a beholder's anti-magic would be a 25% for epic magic).

Seeing as there is a huge investment to even learn such spells, and a spellcraft check is needed every single time you try to cast them, I feel very strongly about spell failure in this case. If anti-magic is going to make it even harder to successfully cast an epic spell, I think its ability to prevent the caster from completing the spell should be dependant on more than just a random percentile roll.

I think it would be much better to simply apply a concentration check with a base DC X+1d20(for a little extra randomness), and allow the caster's statistics and skills to play a factor in their success in overcoming the antimagic.

One quasi-example of this is the PnP Psionic Soulknife class, which is all based around summoning a psionic weapon into their hand (similar to the soulfire warrior in aenea) that gets more powerful as they gain class levels. When a Soul knife is inside the area of an antimagic field, they must make concentration checks to manifest and maintain their mindblade.

At least with a skill check, there are ways to improve one's chances of success.... with flat spell failure %, you cant do diddly about it. Epic magic indicated the caster has a much greater understanding of the foundations of magic, and I believe this should translate to it being a matter of skill to overcome antimagic.

Addendum:

Also as for the spell school:

Because there are a few directly offensive Conjuration spells, as well as all the deity granted spells being conjuration, I think Divination or Abjuration would be better schools for epic magic to fall under (if it must all be lumped into a single school in the first place).

For once I can see that spell school issue, and I'd ask that the school be changed to Divination, as there's only one spell of divination that has a saving throw and only a few hostile ones to begin with. Therefore, immunity to Divination is a nearly entirely unuseful property to add anyway, so there's no loss from not having it. There are a few Conjuration spells that are offensive and I'd like to be able to choose to become immune to them if I so desired it (including Melf's Acid Arrow and 10 Aenean spells)

The antimagic ray.... involving epic spells.... I'd say have it apply a -20 Spellcraft penalty for the duration and allow the spell failure status effect to be ignored for Epic Spellcasting

evilkittenofdoom wrote:The antimagic ray.... involving epic spells.... I'd say have it apply a -20 Spellcraft penalty for the duration and allow the spell failure status effect to be ignored for Epic Spellcasting

The problem with a spellcraft penalty is that a character might craft an epic spell that requires maximum spellcraft in order to cast. Apply a -20 penalty to the check they need to cast it, and now the effect is basically 100% spell failure.

Thats why it would be better to base it off a different skill altogether (and this would give incentive to diversify as well), and rather than using a penalty, simply use a formula to make the DC slightly randomized (like the DCs on current paragon powers).

Note: I do believe there should be a point where a character's skill with concentration is so great that they cannot fail the check against antimagic. I think the top-end of the DC should be 99.