Build an Aenean Epic Magic System

That's part of my aversion, yes, although if they were able to be stored in a scroll case as like normal scrolls, that would not be bad at all. On a few of my casters, I keep the scroll case itself quickslotted so I can get to a scroll relatively fast.

My main aversion is Besides the sac flame, fly book, telekinetic claw and jump tool, I just don't have enough quickslots to accommodate spells and yet more activated items, even with splitting spells between "Need them right now quickslots" and "cast them with the radial via numpad" groupings.

The select tool method would work... I have that quickslotted normally and use the select tool quite often. For ease of use, that'd work just as well as making the epic magic feat a targetable feat ala the granted spells feats. That method would save on a quickslot as well. The one advantage of making the epic magic feat a targetable feat though is we'd have a quick reference right there on the quickslot as to how many epic castings we have left.

The "nexus item" I think would actually trump both the "individual items" method and the "select tool" method.

You can easily switch between the 8 spells on an item right on the quickslot, unlike sub-radialed spells/feats on the quickslots which have to be done from scratch each time you change them.

You could also store the epic spell database info right on that item. This has another benefit too... a character reincarnates, their epic spells are still listed on their database book... which they don't lose. But if the data's on the epic casting item, they have to research their spells again as normal when climbing back up into epic levels, if they even go epic spell caster again that is.

Another question...

How will the spells be named? Will the player get to name their personalized spells?

And as for the dropping/trading concerns of epic spell items...

HOw about setting an "ownership" variable on the item? When the spell fires off, as well as looking for the effect variables on the item, it also compares the ownership variable to the activator.

If it's the person who actually researched the spell, it fires off as normal.

If it's not... something very bad happens to the person trying to make use of an epic spell they have not researched personally.

That way, the most someone could do with an epic spell scroll belonging to someone else is use it as a reference aid while developing their own epic spells.... like say, Angelica has an epic spell with a given set of effects. Crideas sees it in action and asks Angelica about the spell... Angie decides to be nice and says "well here, take a look at my research notes" He coudl have the scroll to see what seeds were used, ect, can use that as a guide to making his own version suited to his own spellcraft skills, but if he actually tried to use Angie's scroll itself to cast the spell, he'd turn into a penguin (or, if it was Aurora instead of Angelica, you could be sure anything Aurora makes would be booby-trapped with something far nastier than being turned into a penguin)

And on that note, I'd love to reseach a spell that can forcibly turn a target into a penguin or toad or rat or such

To sort of accomodate the folks who dont want to be limited to a selection of only 8 'active' epic spells....

Using part of 's idea to have a bunch of little epic spell scroll items that can all be 'used' on a target with a combination of player select tool and VC command....

Drop the little items part.... but instead, use the character's database to store tha variables as I explained above.... in addition to allowing the 8 'active' slotted spells to be cast using the 'nexus' tool... also allow the PC to cast spells from their epic spell list with VC commands. To whit:

A PC learns an epic spell. The variables that make up the spell are saved in an epic spell slot of the PC's choice (chosen before the research process begins). The PC can rename the slot just as with Ally and TP slots, but the variables remain the same. Using something like

'espell rename 4 XXXXXX'

where espell is the vc command tag, rename is the function, 4 is the epic spell slot, and XXXX is the text for the new name.

A new VC command can also be added to allow the PC to 'swap' the data from two different slots, effectively allowing for the PC to 're-order' their slots without needing to re-learn any epic spells or losing any stored data. Something like

'espell swap 4 10'

Where 'espell' is the VC command tag, 'swap' is the function....and '4' and '10' are the two slots that will have their data swapped.

This would also allow for 'active' slots to be handled like this:

'espell set 1 4'

where espell is the vc command tag, set is the function to copy a certain epic spell slot's variables into one of the 8 'active slots' (but the data in the original 'non-active' slot remains the same), 1 is the 'active slot' which the variable data will be copied into (overwriting any previous data in that active slot), and 4 is the epic spell slot where the data will be copied from.

Lastly, to the original intent of this post. The epic spells could actually be CAST via VC command, by the player using the player select tool to target, and then using the vc command

'espell cast 1'

where espell is the vc command tag, cast is the function to cast the spell on the selected target, and 1 is the non-active spell slot containing the spell variables. This idea might not even need to use the player select tool, if the cast command parses the variables and can determine if the mouse pointer should be turned into a target pointer.... in that case, the player could simply enter the vc command, the pointer would change, and then they use the mouse to target normally as if they had clicked on a quickslotted spell.

Hopefully that all makes some sense.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking.

Shorter vc commands would rock though, ESC as the maser command (epic spell casting), with the trailing parts for selecitng/ect.

However, I'd drop the "cast" command, and make the epic magic feat targetable. Select a spell, use the feat on a target rather than using the select tool and then another VC command to cast.

That, and the 8-radial nexus item would both be the easiest to use in terms of gameplay.

As for making the spells themselves... It could be seen as 'jumping through more hoops' in terms of the other costs, but I kind of like the idea of collecting key material components for researching spells, as long as they weren't absurdly difficult to find/acquire. It could be a rather enjoyable adventure aspect to the process.

As for the "great library" area... I kind of think the hidden library in Dawnholm would be a great place for that, in particular the room right under the library. It fits the "Big magic is made here" theme. There's also plenty of room for adding in the 'seed placables', it has a very minor security system in place already (approach without the right protection, get hit by magic missiles.... that seems quite apropos.)

Good ideas

MannyJabrielle wrote:Shorter vc commands would rock though, ESC as the maser command (epic spell casting), with the trailing parts for selecitng/ect.

That would totally work, not every often anybody would begin a chat sentence with just esc...

However, I'd drop the "cast" command, and make the epic magic feat targetable. Select a spell, use the feat on a target rather than using the select tool and then another VC command to cast.

Just to make sure I totally have this concept... for 'selecting' an epic spell, would you use a VC command to set which set of epic spell variables are used by the Epic Magic feat? Almost exactly like TP and Ally slots are? And then aside from your list of epic spells-known slots(for which you can 'set' one to be cast by the feat), you would have the 8 extra 'active' epic spell slots for use with the 'nexus' item?

As for making the spells themselves... It could be seen as 'jumping through more hoops' in terms of the other costs, but I kind of like the idea of collecting key material components for researching spells, as long as they weren't absurdly difficult to find/acquire. It could be a rather enjoyable adventure aspect to the process.

I agree this could make learning epic spells more fun, but I have to heavily emphasise my agreement that it works best if the materials not be very hard to find... no once/reset or only during certain phases of the moon... then it would just be a frustrating time sink.

As for the "great library" area... I kind of think the hidden library in Dawnholm would be a great place for that, in particular the room right under the library. It fits the "Big magic is made here" theme. There's also plenty of room for adding in the 'seed placables', it has a very minor security system in place already (approach without the right protection, get hit by magic missiles.... that seems quite apropos.)

That was like the unexpressed idea I had in my head, pretty much verbatim.

daveyeisley wrote:Just to make sure I totally have this concept... for 'selecting' an epic spell, would you use a VC command to set which set of epic spell variables are used by the Epic Magic feat? Almost exactly like TP and Ally slots are? And then aside from your list of epic spells-known slots(for which you can 'set' one to be cast by the feat), you would have the 8 extra 'active' epic spell slots for use with the 'nexus' item?

Yes, minus what you used with the feat itself...

Two methods to do the same thing.

Method one, nexus item with the 8 activated powers on it. Use any of those powers, you use up an epic casting, up to your limit as determined by spellcraft/class levels. To determine what spell fires off with which of the 8 cast-properties on the nexus item, you "load" the spells you want with a VC command, something like "esc loadnexus 1 XXXX" where XXXX is the spell you want, and the 1 is the first of the 8 powers on the nexus. Use the nexus to actually cast the spell.

Method two, epic magic feat + vc commands. Set which spell you want with the vc command (esc <epic spell>). When you want to cast, use the epic magic feat on the target of the spell. To switch to a different spell, select it with the vc command.

Both methods would use up a casting of epic magic. If you have say, 4 casts of epic magic based on your level/spellcraft, and you cast one via the vc+feat method, you'd have 3 casts left, if you used 2 off the nexus item, you'd have 1 left... not you cast 4 via feat, then 4 via nexus (for 8 total)... you have have 4 casts, you only get 4 casts. It's just two different methods for the same thing, one's 'vc on the fly', one's 'loaded into the nexus'.

I agree this could make learning epic spells more fun, but I have to heavily emphasise my agreement that it works best if the materials not be very hard to find... no once/reset or only during certain phases of the moon... then it would just be a frustrating time sink.

Definitely. 1-per-reset shenanigans suck, and I can totally see trying to get something on a particular moon phase being just as bad.

I was thinking more of some short trip somewhere to 'flash your magi credentials' as it were... blow up some interesting baddies, or sneak by them with spells, grab your reagent, maybe a minor puzzle to 'unlock' the reagent sorta like the wizardry school doors... fun, interesting, not tedious.

That was like the unexpressed idea I had in my head, pretty much verbatim.

Maybe a crotchety old wizard NPC roaming about too who can give some short info on the entire process too. Or maybe even an old wizard and sorcerer arguing with eachother over this or that, blissfully unaware of anything outside their magical debates.

So we're having Crideas argue with .... someone?

Crid's yer basic hermit now. Very few individuals he would consider worth spending the effort and time to argue with

"I'm to old to bother with making 'points' anymore.... there's no point."
-the councilor dude from matrix revolutions

Added a little more to the "research" and "casting" sections of the initial post.

Looking vera nice.

With the known epic spells, will it be possible to "erase" spells should a caster either need to make room on their list, or simply wants to dump an out-dated epic spell?

And you mentioned multiple seeds on one spell may be an issue, is that looking like it may still be the case?

And are you accepting player made icons for the seeds?

The seeds won't need icons, since they'll be placeables rather than items.

Erasing...yes. That could be done.

Multiple seeds I'm still trying to figure out a working solution for, so right now I'll be working off single seeds just to get the coding going.

Single seeds is certainly better than none.

Besides, if anyone can manage to get multiple seeds working together, it's .

I could see multiple seeds being very handy ,but tricky to use simply
cause of deciding/scripting which seed would fire first. My first thought was a
epic spell that dispels then does large amount of raw magic or
elemental dmg, but if the affects didnt fire in the right order (dispel
then dmg) the spell would be botched.

My one question when this project is what will happen to the normal
epic spell feats? Currently both of my casters have 2-4 feats used up
on epic spells and I would love to be able to use the feats in other
areas and just research the epic spells I use now.

mentioned spellcasters would get a set of scales to relevel with, so you could use those feats for other things.

Epic skill focus: Spellcraft would be a great replacement for one of those feats.

Working on building this beast. It's more difficult when you've got infant twins (plus a 4 year old, a 6 year old, and a wife) that all need some attention, but I'm making definite progress.

Ever wonder what could go into something like this?

feat_epicmagic (script) - this one runs all the actual "spellcasting"...combining variables to actually produce the spells' effects.
onchat_research (script) - this one will be used for the actual researching/configuring of the spells
epic spell slot I to VIII spells (spells) - not real spells, just needed for doing the item-based casting
epic magic item (item) - for casting item-based versions of the spells
feat/spells/iprp_feat/iprp_spells (2da files) needed to control all the game mechanics stuff
epic spell slot 1-8 (icons) - needed for item-based casting
research library (area) - gotta have a place to do the research
research crystals/books (placeables) - needed for holding information in-game for PCs doing the research
sleep - gotta have some sometimes just to get the brain working again

Lookin good

One optin that would be cool to see... even if multiple seeds ends up not being possible... how about single seed 'stacking'?

In other words, using a seed more than once, to increase the effect and/or DC to resist (and also the spellcraft DC to cast).

Many of the seeds will include options for more powerful (but more expensive to research and harder to cast) versions.

There will also be the option of adding +5, +10, or +20 to the save DC.

What's that you say? A 50d6 greater greater ruin with a save DC of 40 + my Int/Cha modifier?

Yes.

Edited to add: Oh, and I'm making Pale Master levels count for caster levels on these for penetrating spell resistance (at 1 per 2 PM levels). so a Wiz 21/PM 10 would count as level 26 for hitting spell resistance.

Oh hells yeah!

Sweet Jeebus. Gawd forgive you for what you've unleashed.

*evil laugh*
Run, meatshields, run!

It would take very dedicated spellcaster to create and cast a spell of that power. We're talking a Spellcraft DC of 137 (87 for the raw damage, +50 for pushing the save DC up by 20). And yes, it could be done with the right spending of skill points, taking the right feats, and investing in items to raise your "casting stat" and Spellcraft skill.

The NWN engine max is 127. Skills simply cannot go higher than that.

MannyJabrielle wrote:The NWN engine max is 127. Skills simply cannot go higher than that.

Hmmm...I may have to do some restructuring and testing then. Thanks for the heads up.

well 50d6 positive is on average 175 damage, i dont think meatshields will have to run from that *smiles* Anyways very nice ideas there, I'm curious to see this system in action.

Papa-Lenin wrote:well 50d6 positive is on average 175 damage

...which can be cast 8 times, making it a total of 1400dmg on average -
dealt in 4 rounds when hasted. That said, most PCs are well below 700HP - 2 rounds to kill. Not too shabby now, eh?

I know, was joking.

Assuming the spells are cast via item, haste will not speed up the spellcasting process. On an item, it would still require 8 rounds and if it were cast via feat it would likely be the same.

Ok, did some testing, and we're good to go on needing super-high spellcraft checks for the most outrageous of epic spells.

Keep in mind only the most dedicated "epic caster" can reach these numbers, but it is possible...

Wizard, level 40 (43 ranks)
+ Starting Int 18 (+4)
+ Intelligence increases (+5 for levels, +5 for Great Intelligence 1-10) (+10)
+ Intelligence boosting items (+12 points) (+6)
+ Courteous Mageocracy feat (+2)
+ Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (+3)
+ Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (+10)
+ Item/Spell/Effect Increases (up to +50)
= 43 (ranks) + 85 (bonuses) = +128

The game engine limits this to +127.

I'll be adding a new feat "Mystical Insight" with will add a "virtual" +10 to Spellcraft, but only for researching and casting epic spells (so it won't show on the character sheet for the skills). This one will require the Epic Magic and Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) feats as prerequisites.

So we're at +137.

Now, for the actual Spellcraft check (for researching and casting):

In Combat Option 1: Roll:
1d20 + 137 = 138 to 157
with Combat Casting: 5-20 + 137 = 142 to 157
with Improved Combat Casting: 9-20 + 137 = 146 to 157

In Combat Option 2: Take 10
10 + 137 = 147

Out of Combat: Automatic 20
20 + 137 = 157

Going this route would require a wizard (for the bonus feats) so you could get the epic skill focus and all 10 "great ability" feats. Other classes would miss out on some of the bonus feats, but their primary casting stat would still be taken into account for the research & casting. It would also mean dedicating equipment slots for gaining some of the potential +50 in skill increases (custom items, plus a few item's I'm working on adding to the module for everyone).

has checked his math a few times here, but math was never his strongest subject...

Edited to add: I think I'll make Combat Casting and Improved Combat Casting add bonuses (say +4 and +4) to the check while casting in combat with the "roll" option (just not making the "roll" higher than a 20).

One thing you're forgetting - any of the Int boosts from Tomes/Lady Shea

Also, a modifier for some of these effects be placed in that allows it to be an AoE DoT effect wouldbe awesome. (Area of Effect, Damage over Time - like Cloudkill, Tempest's Rolling Thunder and similar spells)

Combat casting/imp. combat casting will add to the spellcraft checks for epic magic as well? That'd be nice, Have some real uses for those feats...

I don't understand though what you mean about wizards having a feat advantage. The relevant feats mentioned are post-epic, and wizards only have a feat advantage pre-epic. In epic levels all the primary casting classes except druids get the same number of bonus feats, and would be able to get all the feats mentioned. Druids would have to chose though between great wisdom X, mystical insight, combat casting or epic skill focus for their final feat though, as they have 1 less feat than all the other caster classes.

Thanks, MannyJabrielle, for the info. Today's testing with the wizard is the only time I've ever leveled up a spellcaster just to see how high I could push the Spellcraft skill (and paying any real attention to feats). I didn't know other spellcasting classes got bonus feats in epic levels.

All classes have epic bonus feats Some more than others.

What could be done, if the goal is to give wizards a edge featwise, a bonus feat that's only available on a wizard bonus feat (pre-epic of course). Something like "mystical insight", maybe called "Rudimentary Spellcraft". For all the intense studying wizards do on magic, they have an easier grasp of the fundamentals than any other caster, allowing them slightly better spellcraft checks.

I'm already going to be giving wizards a little bonus with the epic spells...the ability to research up to 50 epic spells (everyone else will get up to 40).

Although I have a feeling most people won't use up all that potential as they settle on a dozen or two favorites.

evilkittenofdoom wrote:One thing you're forgetting - any of the Int boosts from Tomes/Lady Shea

I would personally rather see stat tomes and Lady Shea purchases remain out of the 'upper end' calculations so that PCs who are not purely focused on cranking spellcraft will be able to 'make up' for some of the shortfall with them.

Given the cost of said points, I don't think that will be much of an issue. If you want to spend the ungodly amount of time to do it, I'd say there isn't much of an issue. Besides, the most you can get out of it is 7 points of spellcraft anyhow.

12. 20 stat buys will be a +10 boost to the modifier, +2 from a +4 tome.

What Dave meant though was no, not that they wouldn't count, but that they shouldn't HAVE to be done to reach the upper end DC's with a focused epic caster, and characters not so focused on epic casting can use them to help 'catch up' with the epic focused caster

Ah, thanks for the correction. I wasn't entirely sure what the number of stat boosts you could buy per stat.

Just had a thought about that starting Int stat for the 40th wizard ....
has listed 18 (+4) .. but with leto-edits wouldn't a bright gnome be
able to have a starting Int of 22 (+6) ... ?

(( Creation Int of 18 + 4 Int bonus from subrace ? ))

Not to mention being an adept Illusionist, and have the favored class of wizard ?

It's an option everyone gets in Aenea at creation... surely we should think of the Aenea specific's and details here too....

MannyJabrielle wrote:12. 20 stat buys will be a +10 boost to the modifier, +2 from a +4 tome.

What Dave meant though was no, not that they wouldn't count, but that they shouldn't HAVE to be done to reach the upper end DC's with a focused epic caster, and characters not so focused on epic casting can use them to help 'catch up' with the epic focused caster

Thank you, Manny. This precisely.

RustyDios wrote:Just had a thought about that starting Int stat for the 40th wizard ....
has listed 18 (+4) .. but with leto-edits wouldn't a bright gnome be
able to have a starting Int of 22 (+6) ... ?

(( Creation Int of 18 + 4 Int bonus from subrace ? ))

Not to mention being an adept Illusionist, and have the favored class of wizard ?

It's an option everyone gets in Aenea at creation... surely we should think of the Aenea specific's and details here too....

I dont mind taking Aenea's details into account at all. Those are definitely options everybody has.

I just dont want making a Bright Gnome Wizard to be a requirement to hit the maximum epic-spellcasting capabilities. Thats sort of like unfair to folks who want to be awesome epic spellcasters, but dont want to play a Gnome. I will admit, there have been times since I made Crid, that I pondered the idea of remaking him as a bright gnome for that little extra boost... and I was tempted.... but you notice I didn't do it. It just wasnt the character I envisioned and wanted to play.

I think the generic methods of gaining spellcraft that are taken into account for reaching the pinnacle of epic-casting should be available to pretty much most focused spellcasting characters(after character creation). The more specific choices that cannot be changed like Race, and the really rare or extremely difficult methods like Tomes or Stat buys should be the 'cushion'. For folks who want to build a character in a direction other than pure-max-focused-spellcraft-all-the-way, but still eventually be able to get to the pinnacle with some luck and a bit of extra work.

In all honestly, I quite like the idea of using a Human Wizard as a base to start from. Thats about as simple a starting concept as you could have, and fits the generic build choices that had been discussed up to that point (feats, stats from levelling, ranks, item bonuses). I still favor giving wizards a slight edge, and I will certainly settle for 10 additional epic spells known, but I was hoping for something more in the realm of potency.

Progress update:

In between twin feedings and other family stuff, I've so far "coded" for 61 specific seed effects (variants on different seeds, such as 12 for Fortify and 25 for Ward). I think I've also handled coding so the spells will take into account modifications to save DCs, area of effect, and other modifiers.

Oh, and I figured out the easiest way to work the original NWN epic spells (like hellball) into the new system...by using the existing scripted spells since they're already done.

Still much to be done, but the plan is to have the system up and running (and 75-80% bug free!) by the time the 16th (4 years online!) rolls around.

Whoa.... using stuff that is already available to save work? Why not reinvent the wheel?

I will be impressed and amazed if you manage this all by the 16th... but I am crossing my fingers nonetheless!

Just finished the 20 options for the Energy seed (15 damaging ones (10d6, 30d6, and 50d6 of different elements) and 5 different elemental damage shields).

It just takes more than 2 minutes of computer time at a sitting (well, standing...I rarely sit while using my laptop, since I keep it on the kitchen counter).

Make you you backup regularly to an external storage device in case laptop hard drives decides to have an issue!

If you need an external, I will mail you one!

I keep the module file in three places (my laptop, the server machine, and my desktop PC). It sometimes also makes it onto a backup CD and/or a flash drive.

Status update:

2/3 of the way done coding the spell functions...and a muse stops in, smacks me over the head, and I get a brilliant idea to simplify my coding.

Luckily, the simplification process involves re-using 99% of the code I've already written, so I don't have to puzzle everything out again.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote:Status update:

2/3 of the way done coding the spell functions...and a muse stops in, smacks me over the head, and I get a brilliant idea to simplify my coding.

Luckily, the simplification process involves re-using 99% of the code I've already written, so I don't have to puzzle everything out again.

I absolutely love those moments of clarity.

If you can, send the muse my way.... I am working on some spell tactics research... and not having much luck...

For those feeling particularly twisted, I just coded an option for the Animate seed that will allow you to animate the corpse of a fellow PC , which will use that PC's weapon(s), armor, helmet, shield, and cloak (aka, the visible stuff). The animated corpse will retain a small amount of combat skill, and remains for up to 12 game hours.

(This use does, unfortunately, make it impossible to cast raise dead or resurrection on said PC's corpse at a later time, and means items such as zolaras' gift also will not work).

That's almost too awesome

Will you give us any details on how the stats of the corpse are calculated? Though I'll research the spell anyway, if only for the flavour

YES! Awesome indeed!

*notes that his evil necromancer needs to learn this...*