Partially Used: Melody of the Mundane

I know manny reported a discrepancy between the effecxt and the description regarding the SR aspect.

I would like to make a suggestion about this as well. The spell failure aspect of the song
does not appear to be resistable in any way... much like beholder anti-magic, its automatic.
Now with the spell giving over 50% spell failure up to 100% at the highest, I think its only
fair that the bard be affected to the same extent, as that is the nature of anti-magic... it is
not selective. If the song already works this way I apologize, but if memeory serves from
past experience, it doesnt.

The other thing is... if the song is *also* supposed to grant SR to the bard, I think the
SR granted should not exceed a reasonable limit such as SR 45. It already slaps casters with
unavoidable spell failure... getting outrageous SR on top of that would be a bit much.

Lastly, the effect of the song to unequip a target's gear.... this is just over the top
in the sheer amount of excessive involved. If it was included in order to make the
song useful against non-spellcasters, please consider how much *worse* this makes
it for spellcasters.... they already get auto spell fail and a bard with high SR.... its not
remotely balanced to *also* remove their gear. For making the song usefull against
non-casters, consider having it add some temporary damage penalties to a targets
weapons... but dont unequip their gear...... not unless the bard loses their gear too.
And with the issues that removing gear can cause ( such as full inveotry causing stuff
to get dropped on the ground and deleted by the cleaning script) its best to
avoid such a mechanic altogether.... resistable or not.

The spell failure's on a failed will save. I forget what the DC is, but if the target succeeds the will save, no spell spell failure.

The top stage is 100% failure if the bard has 40 levels and 60 perform. The stage below that is 88% failure with 35 bard/50 perform, and it decreases in sizable chunks on downwards to something around 4% at 1st level.

I would point out that these are -not- easy requirements to meet. Full bard, no multiclassing, also would require all 10 great charisma feats, starting with 18 charisma, the full +12 boost to charisma, OR, a substantial amount of skill boost items and both the skill focus (perform) and epic skill focus (perform) feats, assuming a maxed out perform skill.

It should also be noted that the +12 charisma is not possible without custom items, and there's very few perform boosting items in game (the only one I can think of actually is the entertainer's shoes with a +2 perform, beyond that it's the luckstone with +1 to all skills). Either way, substantial investment of voucher value to achieve the best effect of the song... this would be akin to wizards or sorcs having to devote substantial portions of their voucher items to be able to cast 9th level spells, and they would not be allowed to cast such spells until 40th level pure classed.

It should also be noted that given the mediocre number of feats Bards receive, going the full on with the great charismas and 18 starting stat requires opting out on a substantial number of other feats, including the various other custom bard song feats; gimping other stats which the bard requires (even though their abilities and spells are CHA based, bards are not sorcerers, and cannot function as fully as spell casters as sorcerers can, relying a great deal on melee combat).

Gimping other skills would include gimping intelligence. Bards are not shabby at all with 6 points per level, but if a character is going to sacrifice all the other skills to keep perform boosted and mediocre to subpar scores in other skills, the investment should net a very tangible gain.

I think it's simply bad form to gimp the ability that requires such a massive investment for it's full effect, particularly when such a change is coming only from PvP concerns.

All those various aspects make facing a 40th level bard with the 60 perform very unlikely, but I think frankly when one does come across one, their songs should be just as potent in comparison as a wizard with 50 intelligence, the spell focus feats, ect.

The SR granted is level + CHA modifier at higher levels (at lower levels, it's as little as 1/2 level plus CHA modifier). This doesn't go beyond the 45 mark very much, and is balanced out in a very fair way by the fact that the SR is not in constant effect, only in effect when the song is going. And when that particular song is going, the bard cannot use any other song for a minimum of 10 rounds to as many as 115 rounds(11 minutes real time) depending on what feats they have. No other form of SR granting is subject to that limitation. Clerics are the closest comparison, their spell lasts 1 turn per level, and grants 52 SR at level 40, comparable to what a bard of equal level would achieve, but minus the inability to cast other spells.

I'm not against the unequiping aspect being removed. It's useful against weapon wielding baddies (in particularly fighter types like bandit chiefs with low will saves and swinging greatswords around), but the main aspect of the song is vs spell casters. The item unequiping doesn't seem too focal in that from my experiences beyond maybe stripping a fellow PC of their casting stat boosting items.

Exchanging the unequip facet for penalties to the targets weapons/AB wouldn't be required. Curse song covers that already, as does hymn of the pyre and winter's carol to a limited extent, the bard should have to choose between curse song or mundane melody, not get both wrapped up into one.

I'm not in favor of the song effect being applied to the bard as well. The feat description says specifically that the bard is not affected, nor does any other song apply it's negative effects to the bard. Making it such would make the songs completely pointless, as the bard cannot target the song and avoid the AoE as a wizard or sorcerer may target their AoEs and avoid entering the effect; the bard is always at the center of the AoE.

The item unequipping has a will save... *not* the spell failure. This I remember quite clearly from testing.

60 perform can be had with the investment of 2 feats and 18 charisma.
43 from levels, 4 from 18 charisma, 3 from skill focus and 10 from epic skill focus... no items required custom or otherwise.

The antimagic effect should apply to *everyone* in the area. You shouldnt get to automatically take away another casters primary class ability without having to sacrifice your own casting as well (for precedent, please reference the iconic D&D spell Antimagic Shell). Its not as simple as comparing it to a one shot aoe spell. There is no resistance, class ability, or item property that will defend against it like you can defend against spells.

The investment needed is nowhere near as massive as you indicate, and the effect need to be in balance with other epic abilities, which that songs stated effects are not. Additionally the investedment in bard levels and perform affect more than just one bard song... just about every single custom bard song has increasewd effect based on the bard level and perform skill.... so there is already *ample* return for such investement.

Those tests were conclusive? I do not believe so. I remember even at a very high level, Alastair's song was not making Crideas fail his spells as much as he should have been if it was completely unblockable. But even if it's not... so what? You wait out a few rounds, and go back to spell casting as soon as the song ends. Cast your melee buffs, don't rely on direct damage spells and melee the bard. Aurora is proof positive that a caster can melee barbarians and weapon masters. A bard is not going to be as high AC/AB as a weapon master or barbarian, and when locked into mundane melody, he's not going to be able to use any other bard song.

It's not an anti-magic zone, far from it. VERY far from such.

Your buffs cast prior to being affected by the song are not dispelled. Your comparing it to beholder auto dispell is faulty and completely incorrect.

Magic items do not suddenly become mundane items as in an anti-magic zone. They retain their +5 enhancements, their bonus damages, all their passive magical benefits. Stating it's an anti magic zone is again, faulty and incorrect.

All magic items retain their active magical properties save sequencer function, which will fail under spell failure. Spells on the items will still be cast, be it buff effects or offensive spells. Stating it's an anti-magic zone is again, faulty and incorrect.

It is simply not an anti-magic zone. It induces spell failure, nothing else. No beholder like auto-dispells, no spell abilities off items other than sequencers failing to work.

The comparison stating it is not balanced with other epic abilities is actually correct, in so much that no, it's not balanced, but not in the manner you suggested, but rather quite the opposite.

Epic spells such as hell ball do NOT require 40 pure caster levels to function at it's fullest, nor does ANY other epic ability require such investment. And suggesting that the investment isn't heavy only demonstrates you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Hell ball does NOT require 40 pure wizard/sorc levels and 60 spell craft to achieve it's full functionality. It requires at minimum 18 wizard, 19 sorc, 15 palemaster (18 levels itself factoring in the 3 levels of bard/sorc or wiz), and 32 spell craft. That's barely HALF the skill requirement, not even half the level requirement. And hell ball functions at it's full functionality as soon as you aquire it. It's functionality is NOT level dependant/skill dependant.

The only other ability that *requires* pure class level investment to be it's absolute best is turn undead, and there is no skill point investment required, multiclassing with blackguard or paladin only hurts the sum level consideration by -2. And the end results can be the immediate destruction of undead of substantial HD. Not impairment of the target, death of the target.

Are the songs themselves "epic abilities" selectable only in epic levels? No. They are selectable as early as 1st level, and every feat level after that. But frankly, to get the maximum effects you are railing are unbalanced, it requires epic levels, 40th level, the max, it does not get ANY more epic than 40th.

I'll cut to the quick, this *isn't* anything to do about balance. It's about PvP. If it were about balance, we'd be having problems with loads of 40th level bards running around willy-nilly trouncing everybody and everybody and everything. Last I checked, there was ONE 40th level bard on the server, and his capabilities in my opinion quite in balance for a 40th level character who's been thoughtfully built and crafted to function as well as he does.

Frankly, a 28th level wizard should be -very- worried about confronting a 40th level bard focused on bard songs. Even a 36th level sorceress should be very worried about facing such a bard, just as she should be concerned about facing a 40th level STR based dev-crit fighter. JUST as that bard should be concerned about facing a 28th level wizard who can throw out MULTIPLE cleave health spells that reduce current HP by HALF on a single cast, 1/4th on a *successfull* save... and THAT isn't even an epic spell, that's a mid level spell, which with meta-magics, can be cast upwards of 16+ times. 8 casts alone is enough to reduce someone with 1000 HP down to less than 100 in 8 casts, even if they make EVERY save. From 1000 HP to 32 in 5 casts if the saves are failed. Should THAT be "balanced"? No, it's a feature of the class, a dangerous spell. One that doesn't require 60 spell craft and 40 wizard/sorc levels, but still a part of the class.

The simple fact is, there are going to be class abilities and functions built into each and every single class which makes them capable opponents, dangerous opponents. Such abilities/spells/functions are NOT going to be easily dismissed or defeated.

Should the item unequipping be removed from mundane melody? Sure. It doesn't quite jive with the intent of the feat. Should the spell failure be reduced or removed? Absolutely not. To suggest otherwise is frankly garbage with the sole intent of weakening a class for absolutely no justifiable reason.

Deep breath, Manny. Yer gettin worked up over something I never suggested. I never even mentioned beholders... dunno why you thought that was relevant...

The earlier tests were indeed conclusive as regards the will save
involved. I successfully made the will save many times and still got
spell fialure, however when I failed them, I still got spell failure
and also had items unequipped on me. The only reason I didnt get 100% was because Al wasnt 40th level yet.

Its not about PvP. This isnt a pvp server, and thats not a reason for me to suggest a change.

Balance is the reason I made the suggestion because this one single ability of the bard class is unbalanced in a couple ways. I dont want to be running a spellcasting NPC and have that song used on the NPC, and while it sits there unable to cast, have the bard turn around and huck spells at it or even buff himself. That song completely defangs spellcasters who are not already melee buffed, and even if they are, it cancels out their primary class function automatically with no defense or resistance.

Antimagic can do that, but antimagic is not selective. The balance needs to be the bard having spell failure and/or being dispelled too.

The level of the caster makes no difference, 1st, 20th, 40th... all would be screwed equally. For such a powerful effect, totally surpressing the magical capabilities of even a pure focused 40th level caster, the bard should not also be able to spellcast himself.

I never suggested taking the spell failure away, thats the whole point of the song.

Its intended to even the odds, but not totally reverse them. If you are going to make a 40th level caster into the equivalent of a 20th level fighter with the click of a single button, you should not be able to turn right around and huck magic around yourself.

Whether you choose to admit the fact that the song is an anti-magic effect or not is irrelevant. It is. That is its stated intent. To suppress magic. Thats what anti-magic does. Hence the reason it gives spell failure, protects the bard from spells, and selectively removes only magical gear. The lack of a dispel may have been a limitation of the scripting or an oversight, and I say sure... go ahead... throw in a dispel too so it works properly.... but it is indeed anti-magic and should not be selective. Everyone in the area should be dispelled and have the same spell failure.

To address your ability comparisons... epic spells are only available after 21st level. Hellball in particular requires at least a 29th level character. Its also gimped compared to quaking chorus' effects and damage at equivalent level. Epic spells are static and never scale with level. You get the skill ranks, pay the feat, you get to use it once or maybe twice a day, and nothing you can do will improve its effects.

To imply that this limitation makes them more powerful than bard songs that are available at low levels and scale all the way up to 40th level is preposterous.

The custom bard songs are the most versatile class ability in the game that have such scaling effects. It makes them ridiculously powerful, but thats fine. Bards needed the boost. Bards also get to use those songs a good bit more often than epic spellcasters get to use their epic spells.

The investment needed to maximize those songs is pretty darn cheap compared to the effects of the songs when maxxed (if they all worked properly). You invest in one skill and one feat maybe add +3 perform to one custom item, and boom, all your custom bard songs can now get maxx effects. I wish to high hell casters could do that with epic spells... or use their epic spells as much per day. The songs are just better, plain and simple.
I don't mind that... I think its a good thing, cuz bard otherwise, while very versatile, dont have the oomph of more focused classes.... this more than compensates for it.

However melody of the mundane goes overboard in its effects. Its antimagic, plain and simple.
With a couple tweaks, could work very nicely. Add the dispel, it makes sense. But make sure the bard gets hit too. Get rid of the gear unequipping, and make sure the SR works properly, but is capped at a reasonable amount, 45 is good... 50 is pushing it, anything over 50 is silly.

Im glad we agree on the gear unequipping at least...

First post, beholders are mentioned. Thank you.

Yes, it is a PvP issue, because it's not a PvM issue.

Yes, that is the -entire intent- of the song, to defang spell casters. Just like spell casters have spells designed to defang and outright kill meleers. Word of faith... no save, you're stunned. Cleave health, even with a save, you're reduced down to virtually no health after 5 or 6 casts.

If a mage isn't buffed before going at it with the bard in question, it's not the bard's abilities that are at fault, it's 100% completely the mage's fault for not being prepared.

It's not an anti-magic zone. you can claim I'm refusing to admit it, but that doesn't fit with the facts of the matter. Saying that auto-dispell was left out as an oversight is ridiculous. It's not in there, claiming that the song is an anti-magic zone because the auto-dispell *should* have been in there is a weak arugment.

Yes, the songs scale to level. But comparing a low level bard song to epic spells? Who's being preposterous now? In what reality is a couple d4 of damage (which is subject to very low damage reduction +1/soak X) from a low level bard comparable to a 35d6 greater ruin? The bard songs do not get the power they do until the later levels.

So wizards and sorcs can't use their epic spells as many times a day as a bard? So what? Really... wizards and sorcs have dozens of lethal attack spells as is, and you want to suggest gimping a class of it's one good ability?

If wizards and sorcs had only ice storm as their one decent attack spell, I would be all for making epic spells have as many uses and effects as bard songs. But the simple plain fact of the matter is, wizards and sorcs have DOZENS of lethal attack spells. They have more casts per day with their spells than a bard has bard songs. PLUS they are NOT restricted to casting a single spell only once every 10 to 115 rounds.

Again, your claim that the investment is damn cheap only demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge. A Cha-based song focused bard gives up a LOT of feats for establishing an array of songs and the power to use them, PLUS it requires 40 full classes to get those effects. I am speaking from actual experience here, not conjecture. Alastair is a song focused CHA bard, and he didn't even have the number of feats to get all the songs, much less a number of feats that would benefit a mid AB melee class greatly.

When wizards and sorcs are required to take a full 40 levels to get their spells to their best, I would accept the claim that the bard's investment as easy as less than garbage. Frank fact of the matter is, 25 levels is all the wiz/sorc needs to get max damage for horrids. Many other spells do not even require that many levels to get the max damage rolls. The few uncapped spells are mords, and acid sheath; mords in terms of being able to dispell other caster's buffs, and acid sheath to to get the full 81 to 86 acid damage dealt to attack -per hit-. Aurora's acid sheath obliterated a meleer with 400 HP in less than 2 rounds and she's only got 36 caster levels. Quaking chorus isn't gonna do that -ever-. Quaking chorus won't also allow the bard to sing regular bard song, soothing refrain and deadman's march at the same time. Sorcs can have up their acid sheaths, fire sheilds, throw out a dozen cleave healths and half a dozen other spells, have a summoned creature and a buffed up familiar all at the same time.

The claims that bard songs are overpowered is simply put BS. a 40th level bard is simply not going to be able to dish out as much punishment as the 40th level caster, even with these powerful bard songs. There is no basis for gimping the abilities.

Casters have PLENTY of ways to avoid the effects of the bard song.

A deaf bard can't use his or her songs. So fire up a blindness/deafness spell and prevent the bard from singing.

Stay at least 30 meters away from the bard. Bard song has a radius of 30 meters. The caster is 100% completely safe from the song effect outside that 30 meters.

Buff up for melee and don't rely on direct attack spells. Hell, Aurora does it -all the time-. Every caster has to do such when facing down golems with their spell immunities.

I will not, nor ever agree to gimping a class because someone is lazy and doesn't want to work around that class's abilities.

Ok got me on the beholders, touche, and apologies. I re-read those posts twice and somehow missed that...

Point stands, regardless. The Song is antimagic. Thats what it does.

The PvE concern is perfectly valid. Bard PCs get unfair advantage against caster enemies. That is 100% a balance issue.

Nobody suggested gimping a class either. And this suggestion cannot and
would not do such a thing. The song will still effectively defang
spellcasters as intended. The song is also not the bard's "one good ability", they have a bunch of them, so that statement is superfluous at best.

If you intend to continue asserting that the bard getting affected by
spell failure will somehow gimp the entire class you then contradict
the point of the bard class itself, as being versatile and not dependant on
their spellcasting to be effective, hence the reason they get good
skills points, bard song, 3/4 bab, and better armor and weapon
proficiencies than other arcane casters. They dont need or focus on
spellcasting as much. Spell failure is significantly less of a problem for them.

Saying that the balance of the ability lies in enemies preparation or lack thereof is a simple attempt at displacing the discussion. Casters are designed to be unable to to be prepraed at all times. Thats a weakness designed into their class. Its fine to exploit it, especially with anti-magic.... part of the game, however having a special form of selective antimagic that permits the bard to continue using magic is broken.

The point of the suggestion has nothing to do with taking the spell failure away, please get off that. Im fine with the spell failure being in there. Its the bard not being affected that is the balance issue.

Its antimagic. Dispel or not. Thats what causes the spell failure, and gives the SR and currently unequips the magical gear. The dispel makes sense but is not the crux of the point. The song is anti-magic in its current form, and the intent of the song is antimagic no matter what form it takes. The intent... regardless of mechanic. Antimagic.
It needs to work as close to the way antimagic can work in NWN.

The suggestion is to balance it with the bard being affected. Trying to say my argument is weak for whatever reason doesnt in anyway support that its balanced for the bard to get to take away up to 40 caster levels with one action and still be able to cast spells himself.
Not to mention that he could do this to a group of casters all at once, it isnt even targeted.

Sorry bud, thats flat out ridiculous, and you need to admit it. If you can't, then please refrain from further denials at the very least, its starting to get offensive. I'd rather you be reasonable about this, but if you can't, then at least be kind enough to absent yourself from the discussion. Im not willing to tolerate being insulted along with having my intent brought into question.

I never compared low level bard songs to epic spells. I compared the availability of them. Epics are available later, and have no scaling features. Bard songs are available earlier, and scale better than anything else in the game.

Casters having an assortment of good attack spells is part of the balance foir their lack of physical offense. Those spells dont scale anywhere near the extent bard song does, and any spellcasting stops the caster from doing anything else, like moving, or using items or attacking. Bard song's only limitation is the fact that you cant stack several of them, but they still allow you to do everything else you wish. Point being, Bards get bard song in additition to their spells and improved physical offense, not at the expense of it like casters with their spells.

It is simply offsides to try and say that bard song only being able to be used once every 10 rounds makes it inferior to spells, because the effect of the song persists throughout that duration, and the song being active does not preclude the bard taking any other action except more bard song. He can still buff himself, use items, and attack without interrupting it.

Quaking chorus can knock a whole group of enemies down and keep them down while it kills them, with the bard not taking a scratch, all the while able to cast other spells or attack with his weapon or use items without interrupting the song. That capability to stack with other attack actions/items, combined with its potent damage and unorthodox form of allowed resistance make it nastier than any single spell in the game. The only thing stopping it from being broken is the bard's spell list. Due to the spell selection bards have the songs are, by and large, balanced nicely, if extremely powerful.

My suggestions will fix Mundane Melody to better follow its intent, and keep in in balance with the rest of the game.

The investment to max perform at 60 is trivial compared to the effects of the songs at 40th level. You dont even need to invest any feats to get there. With ability enhancement and skill bonus from items it can be done. Or you can do feats, or a mixture of both. Its flexible and allows plenty of build options. There are many ways to achieve it and none of them locks you out of being an effective bard in other ways.

Considering that the investments affects more than one song is incredibly powerful for that investment. You get 14 feats as a bard, and you can easily get all 12 songs if you wish. If you chose to get other feats thats on you, doesnt make the investment more costly, it just means you arent maximizing its benefit. You dont need all 12 songs, just as casters dont get all their epic spells without tradeoff.

Every class has to make choices and trade-offs... bards are no different in that respect.... and their chocies/tradeoffs are no more painful than other classes. Most classes dont even have the option to have an ability scale to the heights that the bard songs do at 40th. Its a very nice perk, and thats why the investment is more than worth it, please stop trying to overvalue that investment.

As for avoiding bard song. Any attack can be avoided through tactics. Just because something can be avoided does not mean
its effects are balanced. A spell that automatically slays any creature in a 5 foot radius to the caster with no saving throw, and no spell resistance, that ignores spell protections can still be avoided by being outside the 5 foot radius. Its still totally unbalanced.

Avoiding the spell failure is not the issue. The bard not being affected is.

These are not work arounds. They are attempts to obfuscate the balance issue. Each of those examples is extremely situational and unlikely to be effective for various reasons, regardless. Antimagic is not selective, if its centered on the bard, he should be subject to it.

No other class even has an ability to do that, be thankful bards do.
Having the bard not be able to spellcast while the song is active is not a "gimping". The song will still do exactly what its supposed to do.
With the suggestion I make, it just means the Bard will have to buff himself before singing it, just as you above try to place responsibility on the caster for being properly preared, the bard should be no less responsible for his own preparations. He should have the spell failure applied to him as well.

daveyeisley wrote:The PvE concern is perfectly valid. Bard PCs get unfair advantage against caster enemies. That is 100% a balance issue.

It's not unfair at all. It's absolutely perfectly fair. The song does exactly what it's description says.

The song is also not the bard's "one good ability", they have a bunch of them, so that statement is superfluous at best.

Bard song is indeed the bard's one good ability. It is their primary ability. It is what makes a bard a bard, and not a rogue with a few minor spells.

Sorry bud, thats flat out ridiculous, and you need to admit it. If you can't, then please refrain from further denials at the very least, its starting to get offensive. I'd rather you be reasonable about this, but if you can't, then at least be kind enough to absent yourself from the discussion. Im not willing to tolerate being insulted along with having my intent brought into question.

What's flat out ridiculous is you're claiming how unbalanced mundane melody is, how it 'defangs' spell casters, when Crideas runs around with multiple school immunities that do exactly that, defang casters. No durations to wait out, no 30 meter radius to avoid, no skill or level investment required.

I'm sorry, but your intent is directly in question given that little fact.

[quote="MannyJabrielle"]

daveyeisley wrote:The PvE concern is perfectly valid. Bard PCs get unfair advantage against caster enemies. That is 100% a balance issue.

It's not unfair at all. It's absolutely perfectly fair. The song does exactly what it's description says.

Using the description to say the effect is balanced is like saying that any action taken on instruction
from another person excuses the perpetrator from consequence.

The bard being unaffected is unfair. It is anti-magic, and there is no way to mitigate that effect. It cannot be
counterspelled, dispelled, resisted through gear, protective spells, class abilities, or consumables.

Nothing.

When the bard initiates the effect (and its a huge advantage just to be able to decide when such
a thing kicks in), the target is affected regardless of other considerations. The effect has no limitations
based on the target... it just goes off. Im *fine* with all of that.

The only thing that is unfair is the bard being able to spellcast *after* it goes active. If you
shut off the spells of 5 archmages at once, automatically with a single ability, there is no balance in being
able to then start spelling yourself up. Its just broken. Thats the part that needs to be fixed.

The archmages themselves get to suck it.... the song is *supposed* to screw them.

The song is also not the bard's "one good ability", they have a bunch of them, so that statement is superfluous at best.

Bard song is indeed the bard's one good ability. It is their primary ability. It is what makes a bard a bard, and not a rogue with a few minor spells.

yes and please try to remember that I have not suggested taking bard song away, or even making it less powerful. All I have suggested is an alteration to *one* song for balance reasons, and the song effect
would still be disgustingly powerful. I have no problem with bard song being awesome, it should be.
Especially if you get the 40 levels and 60 perform. The songs still rock even without maxxing them.
Thats fine too.

Just mundane melody i have an issue with, and my issue is not about reducing, nerfing, removing,
gimping, or otherwise eliminating the spell failure applied to the target(s). I just want it to be
fairly applied to the bard as well. Considering bards have other options to be effective, they
still get a huge advantage from the song against casters, but they shouldnt be able to
cast during the song on top of it. If they need to cast, they can do it before or
after.

Sorry bud, thats flat out ridiculous, and you need to admit it. If you can't, then please refrain from further denials at the very least, its starting to get offensive. I'd rather you be reasonable about this, but if you can't, then at least be kind enough to absent yourself from the discussion. Im not willing to tolerate being insulted along with having my intent brought into question.

What's flat out ridiculous is you're claiming how unbalanced mundane melody is, how it 'defangs' spell casters, when Crideas runs around with multiple school immunities that do exactly that, defang casters. No durations to wait out, no 30 meter radius to avoid, no skill or level investment required.

I'm sorry, but your intent is directly in question given that little fact.

This has never been about crideas. The fact you you bring him into it after making personal
insults at me just confirms that you are upset that I dared suggest a change to an
ability of your favorite class. You are letting your bias get out of control here.

For the record, crideas has only *3* school immunities. It cost over 500k in custom
item vouchers to get them, which required 256 hours of time played on the
character. It wasnt just a matter of levelling. I was level 40 already.

Those school immunities are available to every character in Aenea,
regardless of class. And they do not negate *all* spellcasting as melody
does.

While the immunties are passive, they only come into play when spells
are actually cast *AT* crideas, and they do not stop epic spells, nor
do they prevent anyone from casting spells on others, or buffing themselves.

If you have a problem with Crid having 3 immunities, I look forward to
your tirade against Clerics of Mystara, with their hefty suite of
5 school immunities which cost *nothing*. No investment, no
custom items, just level up and you get automatic school immunities.

Personally I think personal school immunities are just fine, or
I wouldnt have taken them. They dont defang spellcasters
completely, they just force the caster to use different spells.

Melody stops *all* spells, even epic spells, buffs, spells
targeting other. All of it. And mind you, I dont have *any* problem
with that.

The bard should be affected while the song is up, thats my issue.

I don't agree with your faulted logic, so I must be biased? Ah, I see. I'm not upset, Dave. I am, unfortunately for you, simply pointing out the faults in your logic and not agreeing with you. Are bards one of my favorite characters to play? Yep. As are sorcerers. The logic of your statement there.... hrrmm, I like bards, but I like sorcerers too... yet I have some sort of bias that upsets me in regards to an ability that's good for one, but not good for the other... wow.

Only three? Evoction, Transmutation, Necromancy. The three primary attack schools. Beyond that you got a couple out of conjuration and divination that do piddly to nothing. Frankly, I consider that exactly on par with the 88% spell failure from a 39th level bard, or the lower failure rates.

And mundane melody doesn't prevent a caster from buffing himself or others. I explained it before, and it's VERY simple. Move out of range of the bard, viola, you got no more spell failure! Before you even get within range of the bard, Bigby's. Stick the bard in place, he wont' even get close to affect you at all. Cast blindness/deafness on the bard before he gets into range, there's MANY ways to avoid it.

Mundane melody, or any other source of spell failure doesn't stop epic spells. I hope this helps you remain accurate in further discussions.

And as for clerics of Mystara. I got no problem with them because they *earned* it. They need to devote 30 levels to get their immunities.

Now as for the slander saying I'm having a "tirade", I would like to point out that while I disagree with it, I got no problem with it. I think multiple school immunities from voucher items is OP and lame, but I'm not suggesting that be changed. I think multiple school immunities for clerics is 100% OK because they earn it. And I'm not having a tirade about that or suggesting it be changed...

I'm simply pointing out the glaring contradiction in your logic, and calling into question your intent.

No, bard song should not apply it's negative effects to the bard. Curse song doesnt, either here or in the OC's. Any other custom song here does not apply it's negatives to the bard. And the plain and simple fact is that there is no reason to reduce the effectiveness or power of this classes's ability, or any other classes's ability for that matter, based on PvP concerns.

And frankly, this is still exactly what this is about. The "Caster NPC vs a player's bard character" idea is simply SO greatly stretched, unlikely and contrived, that I gotta look at it honestly and say, "What are the chances of that, and it being a huge problem".

My issue is that the suggesting is faulty, the reasons for it are questionable, the only purpose it would serve is in PvP. There is no issue in PvM, there hasn't been an issue in PvM. It's a PvP issue. I knew it was one since a few nights ago in the arena when you started railing about how OP bard songs were. And I'm sorrry if you'r unhappy with me pointing that out. I'm sorry if you're unhappy with my not agreeing with your suggestion. I'm sorry you're not happy that I don't agree with your reasons. I'm not sorry for not wanting to take anything away from *any* given class because it's a dangerous tool in PvP that might make a caster have to actually work and not just sit there comfortable and content.

Now your logic fails. The fact that PCs can use the anti-magic song on spellcasting NPCs is the problem.

Just because I havent used a spellcasting NPC on a bard PC yet doesnt mean there is no issue. The issue is there, and will remain there until fixed.

You are biased.

Your complete overreaction and contunually taking my suggestion and comments out of context to push the idea that I am trying to gimp a whole class is obvious evidence thereof.

I have been extremely clear about my intent and the reasons and you keep trying to inflate them and twist them to be something other than what I have stated.

Rather than explain why the it is good balance for the bard to be immune to the antimagic field he creates, you try to confuse the issue. The reason you can't do that is because it isn't good balance.

I dont care about the PvP aspect. If I did I would had flatly refused to ever duel a bard, which I havent.

Please stop trying to tell me what my intent is. I have stated it many times already and unless you are going to take your insults further and call me a liar, you have no basis to contradict my direct statements.

And just to be clear, you think custom items are not "earned" is that correct?

Oh and to clarify, it is an false that I railed about bard songs being overpowered.

I complained about your indestructible flame twin, but not bard songs.

If you are referring to the Luminous' redeeming flames not breaking invis
situation where i referenced Quaking chorus not breaking invis either,
that is was not any sort of complaint that it is overpowered, and I
was very clear about that. I was stating that there was more than
one offensive ability that was bugged, and those were only two
examples. i didnt even realize flames was bugged until that night.

Maybe you are misremembering, or something else, but that accusation
is quite false.

At no time that evening did I "rail", "complain" or even assert that
bard songs were overpowered.

I will say anytime that bard songs are very powerful. They are and I don't mind that in the slightest, despite your unfounded and unreasonable claims and accusations here.

The only one I think is unbalanced is Mundane Melody, not *all* bard songs.

And the reasons I think melody is unbalanced are specific and easily fixed.

Its an *mobile* antimagic effect, the only one available to PCs in Aenea.

Antimagic is very, very powerful, and unique in many ways, and the
only beings who are immune to it are deities. 40th level bards might
be close, but they are not deities. They dont get to be an
exception to that, while getting full advantage of it.

Avoiding the area has nothing to do with the balance. Please
stop trying to bring that in. It isnt a valid point, if it were,
my previous example of the 5 foot slaying spell would be balanced.
It is not. Thats all there is to that.

Please also, explain how my suggestion that the bard get the spell failure like everybody else somehow mean that a caster with 100% spell failure will not have to work to fight back, and would be able to sit there comfortable and content?

If that is your basis for disagreeing, then I must now question *your* intent.

Im still waiting to see the "glaring contradictions" in wanting anti-magic to be
applied equally to everyone in the area....

If you wish to paint me as overreacting, your choice. It's sad that you can't handle that my complete disagreement with the suggestion, but I am not going to attempt to fix that particular problem.

No, I do not believe custom items are earned to nearly the same degree that levels are. One is earned through effort. One is earned by just being around. The custom items are nice, yes, you have to have played a character X amount of hours to get one. But that's not effort at all. They are bonuses unlike what I've seen on any other server, they're great, but simply do not require the same effort as over a quarter million XP.

Maybe you're misremembering. I'm very content with my memory retention thank you.

One example? I'll give one. Aurora can achieve 86 AC. She can zap a scroll and go invis/greater sanctuary regardless of spell failure should she come up against something capable of hitting her 86 AC or when the shortest duration spell drops, her AC drops to the low 70's and she isn't able to recast it due to the spell failure. Buffing up to that 86 AC takes three actions. Three. Two of which are not subject to spell failure concerns. Going into sactuary requires one. Not much effort, not a lot of concern for having stats that make her pretty secure in standing toe to toe with even the roughest meleers.

If anything, a situation with a 40th level mundane melody would further secure her safety in that her greatest weakness is other casters, and the bard in question isn't one of those given her SR, cold resists and ability to soak up the bludgeon damage from all the bard's castings of ice storm.

Remaining out of the zone is a very valid point. Concealment is effectively "staying out of the zone' for melee attacks, as is invis/sactuary, not closing to melee with a high STR dev crit dealing meleer is a valid and easily obtainable defense. Staying out of the zone is a great defense against AoEs. Not slicing at a mage with acid sheath is "staying out of the zone' in regards to that spell. Ducking behind cover to avoid hellball and it's line of sight working is a valid and easy way to avoid it. Staying *within* 5 feet of the caster for meteor storm.... valid and easy way to avoid the spell.

Every spell and ability has some nasty effect. There are ways to avoid them. Either stat wise, or tactics wise. Both are valid and very easy to accomplish. Bard songs are no different.

I'm sorry, but a 40th level bard being able to induce 100% spell failure is not as huge a balance issue as you want to make it out to be. Even a 39th level bard with the 88% isn't as bad as you make it out to be. I'll say it again, 40th level is about as epic as one is gonna get, and it's not unreasonable or unbalanced that all 40 levels devoted to the class ability makes it potent and effective. It's a dangerous ability with the explicit intent of 'defanging' spell casters. It's also easy to avoid, just as easy as avoiding that meleer dishing out 100+ damage that can and will disrupt spells. It's no more difficult to bigby's the bard before he closes in too close than it is to bigby's any other PC that poses a signifigant threat to the caster, or bar their path with a wall of force, or go into sanctuary and elude them, or any other number of methods.

I am not, nor will ever be in favor of such a change. It's not necessary. It's not "easily fixed", because there's nothing to fix.

Youre *still* trying to confuse the issue. Youre *still* talking PvP. I am not.

The suggestion is to have the *bard* have the spell failure because
the bard is creating an anti-magic field and there is no precedent in D&D nor any logical reason the bard should be immune to it... because thats not how anti-magic works. The bard is suppressing all magic in the area, even his own.

It has nothing to do with anybody else *not* getting spell failure.
Please try, please, to get over that hump.

And your example of a fully buffed aurora is moot. Melody removes her ability to
cast her own buffs. Try again.

Consumables such as scrolls are also not relevant as both parties can use them,
so you can leave those out. Besides, that is a PvP discussion, which by your
own statements is not relevant.

The bard has the advantage in that melee if the caster cannot buff, thats basic class balance at work.
The only recourse the caster has is to get whooped toe to toe, or to run. The bard doesnt need
more advanatge than that, and the bard shouldnt be able to cast spells.

Avoidance of an area is not a valid point to judge the balance of the *effect*.
The effects you list are balanced by *other*factors, not their area or the means
to avoid that area. They are *dispellable* and *resistable*. There are even
*immunities* to them. They can be mitigated by other means.

The anti-magic spell failure is not avoidable by any of those means, and is more
powerful overall to boot. The bard not being affected is unbalanced.

This discussion is pointless. The suggestion is designed only to take away or degrade a classes ability in favor of another. I'm finished with this nonsense.

*laugh*

It may indeed be pointless trying to discuss this with you, but not for the reason you state

I just picture a bard singing a song something like:

"Ill sing you now, the most boring song...

A boring old song, it aint awful long...

The most boring song thats ever been sung...

So boring in fact, that its hurting my tongue...

The song that kills joy, excitement and mirth...

So totally mundane, that magic wont work....

Your spells wont go off, dont be a fool...

all spells except mine, cuz im better than you!"