Re: Epic Magic Bugs (merged threads)

[daveyeisley]

More feedback:

-10% of max hitpoints should be worth more than a -1DC.

Same goes for the other HP burns. -50% is likely to kill a wounded character, and for only a -5 DC? It is was % of current I could understand... but as it is these DC modifiers should be much higher for what they cost.

-95% of max hitpoints means you can only survive casting at near full health and will probably need to immediately quaff a full heal afterwards (3,500gps)... and for that, we get only -20DC? Not attractive enough to justify the risk of killing oneself...

[evilkittenofdoom]

I personally think those are good where they are; what about that number OUT of combat? Essentially, it's a near free -20 DC for your spell.

[MannyJabrielle]

I would echo the need for lower base DCs as well.

The NWN engine only allows skills up to 127. With the mystical insight feat, 137. No base DC should really exceed what the game engine limits us to.

Spells with area/casterlevel/ect modifications, I can see, but not base DC's. Making base higher than what is actually possible makes xp/hp/bom burns mandatory rather than optional, which blows.

[daveyeisley]

I strongly disagree that they are good where they are.

Game balance is primarily concerned with in combat usage. Out of combat usage is only relevant in permanent/instantaneous spell duration situations, every other use out of combat will still penalize the user effectively... (and 3,500 gold for a potion for each casting is pretty much like adding an additional cost without a compensating modifier) and for the loss of health based on maximum healthy hitpoints, the DC modifiers should be increased.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

None of the base Spellcraft DCs should be higher that what is possible. I'll be digging back into the epic magic code soon. I was just getting burned out on it after working on it almost every day for several months.

[daveyeisley]

Just the destroy 70d6 seed alone is set to DC 127 which is the engine's maximum spellcraft bonus.... leaving no room for modification unless the user takes 'burn' penalties from casting it....

and considering most epic baddies have 300+ hps.... the spell wont even usually kill them on a failed save....

If you want to boost any part of the spell past that you are looking at losing XP, BoM, or % of your max hps for each casting. Considering its single target only, and without a DC boost en epic enemy will usually make the save, you are going to have to cast it 2-4 times to kill just one epic baddy... it starts to become less than epic all around....

[MannyJabrielle]

Found a thing that could use tweaking.

Wizards need their research DC checks to be calculated like the other classes where the casting stat modifer is added to the base spellcraft score rather than taking their straight modified spellcraft score.

**edit: Example of what I mean. The engine max is 127 to a skill as per the character sheet. Wizards appear to be checked by a straight look at their modified spellcraft score (as it uses int for a modifier normally anyway)... while sorcs/clerics/druids are being checked by their base spellcraft+feats+casting stat modifier. End result is, wizards are capped at 157 max research rolls, while the other classes can bypass that cap with high casting stat modifiers

[daveyeisley]

I was amazed that you intended a July release for it, to be honest. I never expected it to hit the server by then, or even as soon as it did.

I know you worked very long and hard on it all. I wish I could have been more help on that end... but the only thing I can really do to help is try to tell you where i see issues with the implementation.... where it works, doesnt work, where it needs tweaks, where is delivers fun and where it doesnt.

Manny and I have discovered that the checks for the max roll are working OK for non-intelligence based casters..... but the casting mod for int based casters is subject to the 127 cap for spellcraft bonus...as casting mod is rolled into that calculation..... non-int based casters have their casting mod added outside the engine's spellcraft calculation, so it is not counting towards the 127 cap. I think Wizards and Pale Masters need to have their Int mod taken into account outside the spellcraft calulation as well.

As for base seed DCs, I think they should never go beyond 100 base... that at least leaves a little room for non-maxxed characters to play with modifications, and would also allow maxxed out characters a bit more freedom in customization.

The spell modifications DC penalties should probably be tuned down a bit as well.

The 'burn' modifiers could stand to be expanded ( I really like the idea of using multiple epic magic casts to cut the DC of a spell, like 2 casts cuts the DC in half, 4 casts cuts it into a quarter, etc - You could then perform incredibly more powerful effects, sure.... but only one... or maybe twice depending on daily usage limitations).

For the XP and hitpoint burns, it would be nice to see the DC decreases improved. I would see something like 500 xp gets a -10 DC, 2k xp gets a -40, and 5k gets a -80 DC.

For hitpoint burn, if the calculation can be changed to use current hitpoints, then they might be Ok as they are now. Because they are using maximum hitpoints currently, I would say -10% should get a -10 DC, -50% should get a -30DC, and -95% should get a -60DC.

For the BoM burn, it would be good to allow use of more than 1 BoM at a time. Maybe up to 5 BoM... at a flat -10DC per BoM.

[MannyJabrielle]

I agree about the base DC's at the high range.

I'm basing my opinions off a pure class wiz, sorc, cleric, or druid build (as the high-end epic magic should be something attainable by a pure class epic caster focused on such a goal).

43 base spell craft, skill focus spellcraft, epic skill focus spellcraft, mystical insight, taking only casting stat increases at level ups and all ten great stat feats relevant to the class starting with 18 casting stat at level 1 (which would end at 38 casting stat at level 40)

In short, a focused epic caster without any subrace/reincarnation/ascension/book/shea statbuy bonuses). Such a build will have a 100 max research DC roll (80+1d20), without items

That's 106 with stat enhancing items, and I think such gear is common enough to warrant being included as normal/non-extraordinary bonuses.

It's indeed possible to get higher than 106 with additional items, voucher items, stat buys, tomes and DM item enhancement quests, but quite honestly I don't think it's a good idea to make those a requirement to access those high-end seeds.

[daveyeisley]

The permanent (which is really only 24 real life hours or less) duration modifer seems to be doing a x5 DC multiplier.

I realize such a boost should be expensive... but perhaps x5 is a bit much I think.

The practical output is that even for a simple +20 armor spell with a base DC of 46, its cranking up to a whopping 230 with no additional modification. That means burns become a requirement for pretty much any permanent spell with a base seed DC of more than 32 (x5 = 160)... which is pretty much all of them... and multiple burns are required for base seed DCs of 42 or more.

I think adding a single modification (even 'permanence') to a seed with a base DC that can be nearly covered just by base ranks should not require the addition of burn modifications in order to make it castable even for a totally maxxed out epic caster (ie. max of 127 spellcraft + 10 mystical insight + d20 = 157)

If the seed were a high end base DC, like the destroy 70d6 or such, sure, I could see some of the more potent modifications driving the DC up to a point where the caster would have to pay something to pull it off... but even for a high end seed, some lesser modifications should be reachable without burns for the pure, focused, maxxed out caster.... like adding area, improving DC, adding caster level, or restricting targets... even some combinations of these. The burns should come in if the caster is not or cannot become maxxed out.

By way of example:

I remember that you once referred to an offensive spell that would require a heavy XP burn as a spell that would 'leave nothing but a body bag behind'. Even with the big daddy 70d6 destroy seed, it isnt going to be possible to put enough damage out to reliably achieve that result on epic enemies on a failed saving thow, let alone if they make the save and take half damage... and this is assuming no modifications.

As soon as you add an area, boost DC, and maybe make it party friendly.... the spell requires the top end of all three types of 'burn' to be used at all even by a maxxed out caster... and it still won't achieve the result mentioned above.

So this means multiple casts to defeat a group.... and that of course means multiple hits of XP loss, BoM loss, and whoops.... -95% hps twice means you die... even if the enemies dont. So, you take an action to drink a heal (and most likely draw attacks of opportunity from multiple enemies in melee) after the first cast, and hope you dont take any damage before you can cast again... cuz if you do.... you probably still die as soon as the spell goes off the second time. And if two casts doesnt do the trick... thats another heal... more XP loss, BoM loss, and a higher chance of killing yourself for a third cast, etc.

I dont mind having to take all the burns on the spell in order to cast an armageddon-like spell... but as I mentioned initially when the concept of XP burn and other 'sacrifices' was first brought up.... I think the player deserves to know that the enemies are going to be obliterated if they are accepting such a severe cost for a single spell (BoM, 5k XP which is probably a good bit more than killing the enemies will yield, and -95% of their maximum healthy hitpoints). Either that, or the final DC should be lower so that those costs would not be a requirement to cast the spell. The effect should be in line with the costs, and I dont feel that is currently the case when multiple casts are likely to be needed.

Being able to increase damage output by 50% or 100% would also be some decent additions to the modifications with proportional increases to base DC. Also the ability to remove the saving throw for a seed would be of high value in many cases.

[daveyeisley]

As a further example of what I envision as the high end of what would/should be possible with a pure focused maxxed out caster...

Take that destroy 70d6 seed. Add a colossal area. Bump the save DC up by +20 or remove it completely. Increase damage by 100%. Restrict targets to hostiles only. Caster loses 5,000 xp. Caster loses 5 BoM. Caster uses 4 epic magic castings instead of just one. Caster takes damage equal to 95% of maximum health.

Final spellcraft DC roughly 140. Expected damage output roughly 500 on each hostile caught in the area.

For a single target version, the area modification and the target restriction are not needed, so one might forego two of the 'burns' listed and arive at the same final DC.

Tweaking the numbers to make the math work out for this as the upper end of things, and the lesser effects shouldnt be too difficult to balance.

[evilkittenofdoom]

Slight threadjack here, but if I may suggest for to split the DC suggestion into a different thread and delete my post? That way he can look at proper 'bug reports' in this thread and a proper discussion can have it's own place?

[daveyeisley]

1. The command ;;em help doesnt seem to be working

2. I think we need another command to compliment the proposed ;;em list1 and ;;em list2 commands (these would split the epic spells known list in two parts to reduce scrolling). Right now, one can view the list of what epic spells they know, but not what spells have been assigned to what slots for the focus item. I propose ;;em flist (flist is short for focus list) to view what spells are currently stored in what focus slot.

[daveyeisley]

Made a new epic spell using Destroy 70d6. Single target, +20 DC.

Spell created in my first epic spell known slot.

Assigned the spell to slot 1 of the epic spell focus item using the command ;;em slot1 1. Quickslotted focus item, and made slot 1 the selected 'ability' for that quickslot.

Click quickslot, mouse over enemy. Target pointer is greyed out.

Mouse over the ground nearby, mouse pointer regains color.

When I use the ;;em 1 command to select that spell as the active spell for use with the Epic Magic feat, it works properly. Click Epic Magic quickslot, mouse over enemy, target pointer has color, spell casts successfully. Mouse over ground near enemy, target pointer still has color (for single target spell, it probably shouldnt)


I then made an AoE version of the same seed. When casting from the focus item, mousing over the ground near enemies works fine, and the spells casts fine. When mousing over a specific enemy, the target pointer greys out.

Casting from the epic magic feat, the target pointer remains colored on both specific enemies and on the ground. Spell casts properly both ways.

As a final note, for both spells, for both casting methods: when mousing over an object, such as a door, the target pointer greys out (both versions should be able to target an object using either casting method, methinks)

[eeriegeek]

As a follow up to possible multiclassing bugs... Amaerille (Wiz 38/Clr 1/Rog 1) has a number of issues as discussed above. Today I rebuild her in the order Wiz2, Clr1, Wiz 35, Rog1, Wiz 1. The problems remain the same: Only 4 casts of epic magic should be 7), epic DC computed as 96 (should be 101). Also many of the epic spells she's learned fail to function at all, yet do function for other PC's, for example, improved invisibility works for Xephod but not Amaerille. Conceal (permanent) works for Crideas but not for Amaerille. Seems like there is something peculiar about her (besides being a gnome)

[MannyJabrielle]

I get the same thing with the spells working.

Aerith has a +20 armor spell, Angelica has a +20 armor, natural and +10 spell. Aerith's works 90% of the time, Angelica's never work.

Angelica will get the casting animation, says the name of the spell and gets the spellcraft roll in the combat log, but no AC boost and no armor spell VFX. Same with Axel who has a +20 armor spell.

Eerie said something to me that *might* be related though... he noted that my spell names tend to be somewhat long. Aerith's spell name is "Holy Armor", while Axel's is something like "Mystara protect me, shield me from my enemies...".

At the same time though, one of Angelica's spells (cloud conjuration) has a longer name, but works 100% of the time, while my vamp cleric's cloud making spell has a short name and never works.

[daveyeisley]

Just a note: Crid's permanent conceal does cast and apply its effect OK... but it ain't permanent.... it wears off all by itself without a server reset, a dispel, or Crid resting/renewing.

[Skywatcher]

OK, used the tool epicmagicfix1 and releveled from 20, but I still dont have the focus item so I can cast epic spells...........unless I am doing something wrong.

[daveyeisley]

I should be logging into the live server soon. If I catch ya, I will take care of it. It may take me a couple minutes to actually find the focus item in the pallete, though

[Christopher Robin R2]

I don't know what's caused it, but deity symbols are just blank white squares for me now.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

I don't know what's caused it, but deity symbols are just blank white squares for me now.

Which ones?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see which ones. Thanks for the report.

[Eric of Atrophy]

I know that this thread is mostly epic magic stuff, but many of the vc commands seem to be unusable (pc tool renameitem, etc) ... are these being fixed simultaneously, or have they been backburnered for other projects/fixes?

Inquiring minds ...

[daveyeisley]

I know that this thread is mostly epic magic stuff, but many of the vc commands seem to be unusable (pc tool renameitem, etc) ... are these being fixed simultaneously, or have they been backburnered for other projects/fixes?

Inquiring minds ...

Commands were updated. Check the list here.

[MannyJabrielle]

This may be a bit of a biggie.

I double clicked on my scales with my vamp cleric by mistake, and he went to the relevel chamber. He had recently made an epic spell and had 15K xp debt (most of it from the spell making, some from a death). However, even though in the chamber, I was not allowed to level up and received the 'can't level with xp debt' message. The debt would not decrease either until I left the chamber, and ultimately cost him a level.

The chamber should probably be tweaked to not do that anymore, and ignore XP debt just like in any other circumstance.

[MannyJabrielle]

The ;;em take 10 command doesn't seem to work. I get no feedback. It also appears to be the default option, unless I somehow managed to roll twelve tens in a row.

[MannyJabrielle]

The duration for the armor seeds seems to be off as well. Aurora's +20 armor AC spell is not lasting anywhere near 24 game hours, and often wears off around the same time as her 1 round/level spells.

[MannyJabrielle]

The ;;em erase command isn't working quite right. The feedback fires off, but the spell isn't actually erased, neither the effect or the name/description. A new spell researched over the slot "erased" works as it's supposed to and has the new effect's name/description.

Epic Warding.... casting this shuts off the three armor seed spells upon casting (the visuals and the actual AC bonuses are removed), which is really bad and sucky Likewise, castin epic warding and then any one of the armor seeds is shutting off epic warding upon cast.

[MannyJabrielle]

A possible edit on the above report about the erase command...

I am failing to research new spells in empty slots now on Aurora (who erased a slot). The research pillar keeps reporting that I have enough spellcraft and celestial gold (1.8 million celestial gold stockpiled, all the spells have had DC's of 70 or less vs Aurora's 100+ research spellcraft).

The seeds I'm trying are doable, as other players have used them, and some of my other characters have the working seed effects themselves

[Kefrem]

iggys hangs from his staff....big bad bug....tried to get rid of it...searched for command....saw this....

;;vfx pack 1
;;vfx pack 2
;;vfx pack 3
;;vfx pack none - Remove current backpack.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shoulder Pets: You can have 1 pet on your shoulder at a time. Some pet owners just want to be closer to thier little friends.

;;vfx pet parrot green - Aar! This be me green parrot.
;;vfx pet parrot red - Aar! This be me red parrot.
;;vfx pack none - Remove current pet from shoulder.

whats the working command please so i can surgically remove this pesky bird from my stick (oddly upon login the bird was gone...hmmm maybe that is the command...it didnt work while i was in game earlier.*shrug*)

also....i bought a staff earlier in the league....my inventory was full and i didnt realize...so it kicked it to the ground. Moment it kicked it vanished from existance...didnt like the staff's appearance i think so it just ceased to be. Might not wanna put your new staves down for any reason...or the chaos plane will eat em

[The Amethyst Dragon]

iggys hangs from his staff....big bad bug....tried to get rid of it...searched for command....saw this....

;;vfx pack 1
;;vfx pack 2
;;vfx pack 3
;;vfx pack none - Remove current backpack.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shoulder Pets: You can have 1 pet on your shoulder at a time. Some pet owners just want to be closer to thier little friends.

;;vfx pet parrot green - Aar! This be me green parrot.
;;vfx pet parrot red - Aar! This be me red parrot.
;;vfx pack none - Remove current pet from shoulder.

whats the working command please so i can surgically remove this pesky bird from my stick (oddly upon login the bird was gone...hmmm maybe that is the command...it didnt work while i was in game earlier.*shrug*)

also....i bought a staff earlier in the league....my inventory was full and i didnt realize...so it kicked it to the ground. Moment it kicked it vanished from existance...didnt like the staff's appearance i think so it just ceased to be. Might not wanna put your new staves down for any reason...or the chaos plane will eat em

Should be ;;vfx pet none. Looks like I need to fix the VC guide page.

As far as the staff, I'll have to check on the league shops and update them manually. All the new appearances should be working just fine (unless of course all three "part numbers" are 1 0, 1 0, 1 0 (that's blank top, blank middle, and blank bottom, which none should have).

[evilkittenofdoom]

A possible edit on the above report about the erase command...

I am failing to research new spells in empty slots now on Aurora (who erased a slot). The research pillar keeps reporting that I have enough spellcraft and celestial gold (1.8 million celestial gold stockpiled, all the spells have had DC's of 70 or less vs Aurora's 100+ research spellcraft).

The seeds I'm trying are doable, as other players have used them, and some of my other characters have the working seed effects themselves

Same exact problem, and it's annoying me. In addition, the 'Kill' as well as the 'Kill, then Animate' commands are not triggering any effect.

[daveyeisley]

It seems I can now successfully cast only one epic spell per reset.

I cast a spell that uses the destroy seed with a DC bonus and a BoM burn to offset that. I have to cast it using the epic magic feat because the nexus item still has targeting issues. The first attempt it seems to find a BoM and destroy it properly.... and the spell goes off.

After that, it seems the spellcraft DC goes to 0, and I get feedback of "Check: Blood of Magic" and the spell fizzles. As well as any other epic spells I try to cast thereafter until a reset.

EDIT: More info: On every successive epic spellcasting attempt after the first, I am rolling the same result. My first result was 139, now I am rolling 119 consistently. I double-checked the spellcraft DCs in my log and I was incorrect.... it is 127 on all attempts. I have a +109 modifier, so, it seems like my mystical insight feat is being added and I am getting a 20 on the first cast, and then I am not getting the benefit of a roll at all on any successive casts. Or perhaps something is wrong with the check for Blood of Magic?

Edit2: OK, after that first edit I came back only minutes later and now my epic spells are working again.... I rolled 2 results of 139 in a row. This is not making any sense to me now.

[daveyeisley]

OK one more update... it seems like the determining factor in whether I get a 139 or a 119 result... is based on whether I am currently in combat. In combat, I get 119 and fail...consistently.... out of combat, I get 139 consistently.

[MannyJabrielle]

The in-combat roll's been messed up for a while now. Aurora only gets a roll of 10 flat, not a 1d20, and the vc option to turn the 'take 10 flat on or off doesn't work.

[daveyeisley]

The in-combat roll's been messed up for a while now. Aurora only gets a roll of 10 flat, not a 1d20, and the vc option to turn the 'take 10 flat on or off doesn't work.

Yeah, I think it may be two separate issues. The take 10 thing is definitely not working, but that doesnt seem to account for the 20 point difference between in combat and out of combat.

[A_Vagabond]

Another data point: my wiz/farstep gnome isn't fully recognized as an epic caster. I did get the inventory item for casting the spells, but never got the philosopher's stone. In addition, the script is only seeing my spellcraft ranks for epic casts, not my wizard levels.

Last night I used the relevel scales to remove the farstep levels. Unfortunately, nothing changed at all. So, no epic spells for me

In all seriousness, I obviously don't know how much of the epic system is calculated on-the-fly and how much is saved into the DB, but there must be some kind of variables being set that aren't correct, and a relevel and reset haven't corrected the issue.

I would just remake the pc from scratch, but I really like the farstep prc so I'd like to know if that's the cause. I've spoken with another player who had a farstep caster that couldn't get epic spells as well, so it may be a part of the bug.

[MannyJabrielle]

I've yet to get my FSM up to epic caster levels either yet. The casts per day thing is a bug for all multi-classed casters though.

As for the stone, that's picked up via a trigger in the library. Walk around a bit and you should pick it up, although I have seen one other player not be able to get it normally.

[A_Vagabond]

I have been over every square inch of that library multiple times. The trigger isn't firing for me.

[Svair]

Yeah, it didn't trigger for me in the library as well - I needed DM intervention to get it.

[MannyJabrielle]

What's your character's name, Vagabond? If I see you in game, I can get you a bit of DM loving for that stone.

[A_Vagabond]

Dris Drisson. Unfortunately, I don't know that I've ever been online with a DM, but there's always hope.

Thanks for the offer

[A_Vagabond]

May I request that there be a bucket of "celestial conversion tools" available within the room with the epic magic research statues, so those of us unfortunate enough to not get one in the library can still pick one up manually? Since you can't get in there without being an epic caster, it seems like a good place to keep them. Or, have the script that ports you in check for one in your possession and drop it on you if you're missing it?

I'm never getting the library trigger to fire, so my wizzie is now completely stuck A manual foolproof backup system seems in order with little fanfare, when you find the time, thanks

[A_Vagabond]

I don't know if this helps or not, but multiclassing (still) means you lose the casts from your caster class, you only get casts based on your spellcraft ranks.

In addition, I have made one spell (concealment) and it doesn't do anything at all. Just for the record.

[A_Vagabond]

Ok, can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I have now made my second epic spell -- DR 30/- -- and it does absolutely nothing when I try to cast it, outside of saying "Iron Skin!" and making the DC roll (which is automatic).

Am I doing something wrong here? Or is the system just not wanting to cooperate with me? Is there supposed to be feedback when it doesn't work?

(watches the XP debt countdown from 30k)

[daveyeisley]

There ought to be casting animation and a visual effect applied.... on top of you actually getting the DR. Please note, the epic magic system is still in active Alpha stages (I wouldnt consider it even in Beta at this point, and there are bound to be issues)... has had to switch gears on his bugfixing for several other aspects of the game world, but he will eventually swing back to the epic magic system. Please be patient with him.

[A_Vagabond]

I guess my question is, is it working for anyone? If so, which spells? Do you cast self-spells via radial or other method? My epic spell focus will not let me target myself, is this normal? I chose to reduce the DC by making the spells gnome only and living only, is that what's borking the process?

Perhaps I'm just doing something differently that's messing things up?

[MannyJabrielle]

There's really not a pattern.

A given spell will work for one character and not another. It's not a question of DC, the spell just flat out won't fire off. Even for a character a given spell works for, it will work one casting, but then not the next.

I have not used the focus item myself, so I can't say about that.

[daveyeisley]

I have had the best luck using the epic magic feat from my special abilities menu to actually cast spells.... the focus item doesnt seem to be working much at all.

[A_Vagabond]

Update: I was able to cast the DR spell on my dragon (use limitation: living), but not myself. Likewise, I can't cast the 50% conceal on anything (use limitation: gnome). Plus, even though my epic "bean counter" says I get 3 epic casts -- and I should be getting 6 for levels + spellcraft -- I can only cast 2 attempts before I get the "you have no casts left" message.

I post this as another data point for to use for debugging.

[daveyeisley]

updates later in thread

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