Used: Epic Weapon Specialization

Currently, if a character has taken Weapon Specialization with 4 levels of the Fighter class, they can later gain Epic Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat while taking a level in the Champion of Dalix class.

The same is not true of bonus feats for the Weapon Master class, which by all logic and reason would be more geared towards Epic Weapon Specialization than a Champion of Dalix would be.

I think we should add Epic Weapon Specialization to the Weapon Master bonus feat list.

Agreed!

Ding!

Here is one I am somewhat opposed to mostly because this is a main reason to select Fighter as a class, and it is already easy enough to get by taking 6 Fighter lvls, I believe. While Champions do gain this, I was under the impression that this was a gift/glitch; not an intended perk.

Elhanan wrote:Here is one I am somewhat opposed to mostly because this is a main reason to select Fighter as a class, and it is already easy enough to get by taking 6 Fighter lvls, I believe. While Champions do gain this, I was under the impression that this was a gift/glitch; not an intended perk.

The suggestion doesnt change the fact that the only way to get Weapon Specialization is with 4 fighter levels.

It just means you dont need another fighter level to gain the Epic version if you are an Epic Weaponmaster with an available bonus feat (meaning at least 13 weaponmaster levels). I don't think anybody can make a fair argument that this will make Weaponmasters too powerful, make Fighters too weak, or that it doesn't make perfect sense for Epic Weaponmasters to be as good at "specializing" in a weapon as a Fighter.

After all, a character has to have at least 4 fighter levels and Weapon Specialization for this to work. Just being a Weaponmaster will not grant access to Epic Weapon specialization.

Makes sense. TBH I just don't see an issue, it's either ftr 6/wm x or ftr 4/wm x+2, considering the limitations, big deal.

I'd argue removing it from CoD makes more sense, but certainly adding it as an available bonus epic feat to wm is logical and innocuous.

I can see the logic in removing it from CoD, but honestly.... I think that's a pure killjoy move, and not needed in any way shape or form. It would just be taking something away that really isn't hurting anything or anybody.

Not to say you were pushing for that or anything, just sharing my opinion on it.

Agreed Just a comment on where it seems most appropriate, not trying to sack anyone's fun.

And I am opposed to messing up code to emove it from CoT, too.

But I do believe simplay adding 6 total lvls of Fighter to gain this rather unique Feat is viable, rather than see it added to another class. Is 2 more Ftr lvls harming WM builds that much?

Elhanan wrote:And I am opposed to messing up code to emove it from CoT, too.

But I do believe simplay adding 6 total lvls of Fighter to gain this rather unique Feat is viable, rather than see it added to another class. Is 2 more Ftr lvls harming WM builds that much?

Sure, that is totally viable.

Depending on the build though, yes, the extra level or 2 of fighter could hurt a Weapon Master build by costing them a level of Superior Weapon Focus and an Epic Bonus feat (which would be spent on Epic Weapon Specialization).

Superior Weapon focus is the only special class feature a Weapon Master gets for going Epic. Thats a big deal, especially considering the dizzying (pun intended) requirments to become a Weapon Master. Costliest Prestige Class to qualify for in the whole game.

Besides, do you really think Weapon Masters should not be able to "specialize" in a weapon as well as a Fighter? If you think so, please feel free to explain your reasoning

Well this is going to sound "corny" but I always figured that a Weapon Master is ..erm.. a Master of their chosen Weapon .... isn't that the whole point of the class ? ...

To be the best user of that particular weapon type, to specialise in using it so much that they become, well, specialised in using it .... what better way to say specialised master then Epic Weapon Specialisation ... as a bonus feat for the class it would need to be taken on a class/feat conjunction level.... AND if it still requires the 4th+ Ftr levels(for standard Specialisation) then what harm are we doing here ?

We're not taking it away from Ftr's.. we're not harming the fish (erm.. CoD's ).... and we are making it an easier mechanics & thematics build for the weapon master to truly become a master of their weapon ... ....

I'm all for this change ....


And half the reason why it doesn't "fit" with the fish is in vanilla NWN they were Champions of Torm ... which from what I can tell was aimed at a cleric/ftr style mix making a ftr a little more clericy or a clr a little more ftr'y .... .. in aenea they are Champions of Dalix the only choice for being a pally ..... ... Did that make sense ?

If it were solely up to me, I would give Weapon Masters the Weapon Specialization feat for free at 10t level, and add the Epic Weapon Specialization feat to their list of bonus feats (probably have to add "or Weapon Master 10" to the requirements though).

Edit: Actually, thinking about this, it would be better to give Weaponmasters a bonus feat at 10th level of Weaponmaster and simply allow them to select from the Fighter bonus feat list (probably have to add "or Weapon Master 10" to the Weapon Specialization requirements though). So a non-fighter Weapon Master could select Weapon Specialization, but a Fighter Weapon master could at least get something different (rather than just getting nothing if they already have Weapon Specialization).

I don't think Fighter should be required at all for Weapon Specialization if the character jumped through the hoops to become a Weapon Master. Especially if they did it without all the bonus feats from the Fighter class (yet another reason Acrobat tweaks would rock)

I don't expect many folks to agree with that particular opinion, but that is how I feel.

For the purpose of this suggestion, I toned it down so as not to touch the precious "Fighter monopoly" on Weapon Spec. Fighters still get bonus feats out the wazoo, so I wouldnt think of it as ruining the class at all... but I am sure some folks would cry bloody murder.

daveyeisley wrote:

For the purpose of this suggestion, I toned it down so as not to touch the precious "Fighter monopoly" on Weapon Spec. Fighters still get bonus feats out the wazoo, so I wouldnt think of it as ruining the class at all... but I am sure some folks would cry bloody murder.

Really some folks crying bloody murder over a class' monopoly of a certain feat/ability ... now come on, be fair, I don't see any supporting evidence for that statement dave, unless of course it's right in front of me but I can't see it ...

LOL

After having a really good lunch and putting some more thought into it...

I think there is a way to improve BOTH Fighters and Weapon Masters.

Fighter level 3 - Weapon Focus feat granted for Free.

Fighter level 4 - Weapon Specialization feat granted for Free. (still also get the normal fighter bonus feat at level 4)

Fighter level 21 - Epic Weapon Focus granted for Free.

Fighter Level 22 - Epic Weapon Specialization feat granted for Free. (still also get the Fighter Epic Bonus feat at level 22)

Weapon Master 10 - Gain Fighter Bonus feat and add "or Weapon Master 10" to the requirements for Weapon Specialization.

Add Epic Weapon Specialization to Epic Weapon Master bonus feat list.

This way, Fighters may no longer have a monopoly on Weapon Specialization, but all Fighters could get it for free, without giving up a bonus feat, and the Epic version would also be free to dedicated Epic Fighters.

Weapon Masters gain access and a feat to buy it with at level 10 (which is the only bonus they would gain after 7th level pre-epic). And Epic Weapon Masters have to burn an Epic Bonus Feat for the Epic version.

Oooooooooo nice!

Yeah, while I may not be a fan of the "Fighter monopoly" on weapon spec (at least as far as it concerns Weapon Masters), I do admit they could use some loving , and these ideas would give it in spades

Fighter monopoly? Monopoly on what? Its the only ability a fighter actually gets that no one else can attain. Logic dictates (IMO) that it should be removed from CoD but that would spoil people's fun. One could argue that if the CoD gets it, so should the blackguard and other full bab classes.

Personally i'd like to see the feat chains extended so that the fighters bonus feats actually come into play.

Fighter monopoly? Monopoly on what?

Weapon Specialization. Or do you know of another class that can get it without taking fighter levels?

Its the only ability a fighter actually gets that no one else can attain.

So... that would make it a monopoly, right? And the other ability they get that nobody else gets, is 21 bonus feats by 40th level.

Logic dictates (IMO) that it should be removed from CoD but that would spoil people's fun. One could argue that if the CoD gets it, so should the blackguard and other full bab classes.

One could argue that, but other full BAB classes are not thematically appropriate, so one would probably lose that argument. Only Weapon Masters and Champions of Dalix really make any sense at all for Weapon Spec, and Weapon Masters make way more sense than Champs do.

Personally i'd like to see the feat chains extended so that the fighters bonus feats actually come into play.

All this would do is end up making Fighter and Champ have more exclusive feats that other classes can't get due to lack of bonus feats. That doesnt increase the fun for everyone.

Giving Fighters some free Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec means they at least get their bonus feats as an actual bonus without having to burn them for the feat that was designed specifically for the class. And if the character focuses Fighter into the Epic levels, giving them the Epic version of both for free makes sense too.

Heck, thinking on it, Fighters should probably also have Great Strength added to their Epic bonus feat list.

I think not giving Weapon Masters access to Weapon Spec was a huge oversight, but I don't think Weapon Masters should get access to it without investing at least 10 levels into the class.

And Weaponmasters should probably have access to Great Dexterity as an epic bonus Feat.

At the rate this is going there will be no diversity in the classes. Weapon spec is the only feature that makes the fighter different from any other full base class save bonus feats which everyone can attain anyway.

It makes no sense Champions of Dalix having it in my opinion but then agree to disagree

The suggestion isn't for any other base class to get specialization though.

I meant full bab class^

Ah, ok.

But still.. The suggestion's only for weapon masters to get weapon specialization, not everyone. And yeah, anyone can get the combat feats, but what other class can get up to 21 bonus feats to get all those feats with? That's a huge thing for fighters.

And bear in mind with this suggested method of granting Fighters free Weapon Focus at 3rd level, free Weapon Spec at 4th level, free Epic Weapon Focus at 21st level, and free Epic Weapon Spec at 22nd level, that means fighters would have all 21 of their bonus feats and all 14 of their general feats to use on other things, including Great Strength as an Epic Bonus Feat, which no other class could select with their bonus feats.

Fighters wouldn't lose a thing. They would become a far more attractive choice, and Weapon Masters would also get some thematically appropriate boosts (access to Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec, as well as Great Dexterity as a bonus feat).

Actually extending the chains wouldn't make any feats exclusive. You just have to choose which path you'd want to go down and the fighter would be able to acquire much more due to his additional feats. Simple things taken from PnP: PBS -> Rapid shot -> Manyshot

As the feats stand now...theres simply not enough. 12 levels of fighter gives more than enough for 95% of builds.

Edit: WM doesnt need a boost. +1 to the crit multiplier, +2 to the threat range, and their superior weapon focus is more than enough. If i was going to improve the weaponmaster, i'd make ki damage do a bit more damage.

I'm not following the counter argument then. The idea should be nixed because there's not a greater number of other general combat feats? How does the number of general combat feats work against the suggestion for weapon specialization?

I also do not understand the opinion that 12 fighter is more than enough for a vast majority of build is a valid counter argument either (much less do I agree with that opinion at all)

There's 30+ feats on the fighter bonus feat list, and I can point out a ton which are good, solid buys for a sword-n-board fighter, more that are good solid buys for a duel-weilder. 4 free feats doesn't nerf the fighter class. It doesn't make them less special. It makes the class more special. Granted those feats to weapon masters also doesn't nerf fighters. They still have their loads of bonus feats, 21 in total for a pure 40 level fighter.

Actually extending the chains wouldn't make any feats exclusive.

If you follow your previously stated intent of making the Fighter bonus feats "come into play", then yes it would. Otherwise, as it stands now, a non-fighter would have enough feats to fill out any feat chain.

As the feats stand now...theres simply not enough. 12 levels of fighter gives more than enough for 95% of builds.

And the point of the Fighter class was never just to be the only class able to achieve a specific build. Any class can pull off the feat chains for a build appropriate to the class. Fighter allows a character to get the build you want with all the trimmings, or in multiclassing, allows feat requirements to be met faster than with other classes.

The only area right now where Fighters end up with too many feats and too little choices is the high-epic levels. Epic Toughness is subpar compared to other Epic feats, and pure Fighters usually end up having a few forced onto them.

Great Strength as a bonus feat for Fighters will give them something nobody else gets, and allow them to dump some of those extra feats for something worthwhile.

Come to think of it, another thematically appropriate option for Epic Fighters to use their bonus feats on would be Great Constitution, which no other class can select as a bonus feat. With just these two options added, fighters have some very good choices for using up extra bonus feats.

Edit: WM doesnt need a boost. +1 to the crit multiplier, +2 to the threat range, and their superior weapon focus is more than enough. If i was going to improve the weaponmaster, i'd make ki damage do a bit more damage.

I start to wonder if you might be pulling my leg.

Weapon Masters don't get anything after level 7 until level 13 where they only get a +1 to AB with one specific weapon. 6 levels of absolutely nothing, for the Prestige Class with the costliest entry requirements.

Improving Ki Damage? Without changing the intent of the ability, it can't be done.

Access to Weapon Specialization however, makes perfect sense for Weapon Masters. With the suggestion, investing 10 levels for a bonus feat to get it is in no way overpowered, and allows a Weapon Master to actually master their Weapon of Choice.

You disagree, then please explain why a standard Fighter should have exclusive access to the ability to become so skilled with a single weapon that every strike is more damaging, but a Weapon Master of the same weapon should be unable to achieve the same skill?

Lets get down to your reasoning for advocating against Weapon Masters being able to master their weapon.

Its so costly because the abilities it gets are just THAT good. It doesn't need the addition of epic weapon spec to that even if it "makes sense". You can just take another level of fighter and be done with it. It's an unnecessary change IMO.

Why so adverse to extending feat chains? Doesn't weaken any classes in anyway. They'd still be able to get just as many feats as before; just opens it up for new more interesting builds.

A lot of changes done to Aenea can be deemed "unnecessary" in that regard then. Wizards and sorcerers didn't need the arcane magic attack feats... it was unneccesary. Epic casters didn't need the aenean epic magic system, it was unnecessary.

Pretty much -everything- is 'unnecessary' because the game came packaged as is in a functioning format.

Extending feat chains is just as unnecessary as this idea.

And the whole argument just doesn't hold any merit.

Its true, and nobody has said that it is not viable for Weapon Masters to take Fighter levels to gain Weapon Specialization.

So what?

That somehow justifies not letting another thematically appropriate class (Weapon Master) have access on their own?

You are still advocating for forcing Weapon Masters to take fighter levels to master their chosen weapons. The Fighter monopoly on Weapon Specialization is what does not make any sense.

While you are entitled to your opinion that the change is unnecessary, the exact same logic can be applied to any change ever suggested by anybody, including your own.

If you had more than that opinion, like some facts to demonstrate why the suggestion was bad, or would have a negative effect, then you might be contributing something worthwhile to this discussion. As it stands, you have thus far advocated against two classes becoming more attractive and fun for all our players.

Before you bother trying to come up with a good reason for Weapon Masters not being able to train sufficiently to master the skill of Weapon Specialization, let me save you the trouble. There simply isn't one.

So to sum up the suggestion so far:

Spoiler:

I think it makes total sense.

A_Vagabond wrote:I think it makes total sense.

I am pretty sure you mean this to be in favor of the suggestion, yes?

daveyeisley wrote:

A_Vagabond wrote:I think it makes total sense.

I am pretty sure you mean this to be in favor of the suggestion, yes?

Heh, yes. In favor of. Yep.

In all fairness to Blackdragon he is perfectly correct in his assessment.
1) Weapon specialisation and epic weapon specialisation are the fighters class features. Apart from more feats they get nothing else. Look at the source books or even the nwn wiki, CoT/CoD getting it is clearly an oversight.

2) Weapon master is by far the most powerful melee prestige class in the game. Do the math, increasing the threat range and multiplier is just that good! Whether or not they should have epic weapon specialisation or not doesn't change the fact that as far as adrenaline shots in the arms go it's one of the best.

3) Fighter is only ever used for about 12 levels max. Seriously play on any server with serious builders they'll tell you the same. Fighter gives feats, weapon spec and epic weapon spec. So with the paltry number of feats there is no need (except RP but then you could just be a WM) to take more levels. Talking about fighter 40 is a joke as almost any melee build is better than that. The fighter is still his own class just as the cleric and wizard are. It doesnt exist solely as a means of "getting your build with all the trimmings".

4) Feat chain lengths and increasing chain numbers. Doing that will only result in exclusive feats in that most classes cannot get them all but they can get the chain they focus in. Saying that it makes feats exclusive is a non-sequitur as many things in the game are exclusive and require a level investment in a class to obtain, eg sneak attack, magic, animal companions, rage etc.

In conclusion; i actually like Davy's idea I just think the reasoning behind it is flawed. I do feel however that once Amethyst dragon has the time (poor guy ) more feats for the melee classes is imperative as they are lacking quite abit compared to casters at present.

I don't think anyone has argued that CoD's getting access to epic specialization wasn't an oversight. As for if that's the "only thing" fighters get... what other class can net 21 bonus feats? That's not "nothing". I pointed out the fact before that there are 30+ good combat feats on the fighter bonus feat list. You're not getting 30+ feats on 12 fighter levels. You're getting 7.

If we are honestly going to use THAT argument though as the basis of the argument.... may as well flush other PrC's down the toilet too as they overlap with what a number base classes get. Let's be honest about that at least.

Besides rages, what do barbarians get? DR and uncanny dodge. DD tramples all over that with not only better DR, but defensive stance which also grants STR/CON. Under that line of argument... byebye DDs. Champs... they share many abilities with paladins, plus they get a bunch of bonus feats like fighters.... under the line of argument though... no champs.

Yes, the weapon master bonuses ARE good. However, they're not godly, nor is is that they are good a logically valid reason why they should never be improved.

I will still like facts provided for this notion that "12 fighter is the max taken" notion. It's 100% pure opinion without any facts backing up the opinion.

I am a serious builder, thank you, and I have characters with more than 12 or more levels of fighter. I can see plenty of options that only become available with a good number of fighter level investments. I would even go as far as to say someone who says that 12+ fighter is "only for RP" has little knowledge about DnD mechanics and builds.

Looking up fighter on the build database, I found quite a number of builds with 13+ fighter levels, several of them with epic (21+) fighter levels. 173 to be precise. That's not the end-all of builds either. I'm sure there's plenty of builds specific to a given server which won't be found on the database.

I'm truly sorry, but that particular opinion... it's just pure opinion without a single basis in fact.

In all fairness to Blackdragon he is perfectly correct in his assessment.

Its an opinion, that you and he seem to share, and myself and others do not. We have provided facts and reasoning that actually support our opinions. The same cannot be said for the above opinion.

He has thus far failed to exlpain a good reason why Weapon Masters should not be able to gain Weapon Specialization. In fairness to him, thats because there is not such a reason. He even conceded that it "makes sense" in his post where he tried to label the change as "unneccessary".

Furthermore, not a single person who has advocated against the suggestion has demonstrated any evidence or facts that show it would be harmful to anyone's play experience, or make either of the affected classes weaker, less attractive, or less fun. In fairness, this is also because there are no such facts.

1) Weapon specialisation and epic weapon specialisation are the fighters class features. Apart from more feats they get nothing else. Look at the source books or even the nwn wiki, CoT/CoD getting it is clearly an oversight.

I bolded the section where you defeated your own point. Fighters do not automatically get Weapon Specialization. Thus, it is not truly a class feature. They merely have exclusive access, and where Weapon masters are concerned, this restriction does not make sense.

The Fighter class gets both non-epic and epic bonus feats starting at level 1 and 2, and every other level after that. That is the Fighter's class feature. Now, bonus feats are an exceptionally powerful feature because unlike other class features, the player has choice on how the bonus feats will benefit and affect their character build. Monk class features for instance, are automatic, you don't get to choose from a selection of over 30 options every other level.

This suggestion will in no way impinge upon that class benefit, and will in fact improve its value.

Being that you and blackdragon probably both come from the same pvp environment, I can understand how you might feel that adding things to classes will make balancing things impossible. PvP is of no concern on Aenea, so please remove those concepts from your reasoning when you comment on threads in our forums. All it does is create unneeded conflict and frustration.

2) Weapon master is by far the most powerful melee prestige class in the game. Do the math, increasing the threat range and multiplier is just that good! Whether or not they should have epic weapon specialisation or not doesn't change the fact that as far as adrenaline shots in the arms go it's one of the best.

Nope, sorry, try again.... or better yet, don't try again. Weapon Master is the hardest to qualify for, but if you put an undead or a construct in front of a Weapon Master, all that investment for those great class benefits goes bye-bye. The only thing a Weapon Master's class features give them against a crit-immune enemy are +1 AB with a single weapon, and Ki Strike.

Champion of Dalix (Torm) provides more benefits overall, that will apply to all situations. Champion is much easier to qualify for as well.

And here, you still dance around conceding that it makes sense for Weapon Masters to be able to learn Weapon Specialization. Why are you wasting both our time on this?

3) Fighter is only ever used for about 12 levels max. Seriously play on any server with serious builders they'll tell you the same. Fighter gives feats, weapon spec and epic weapon spec. So with the paltry number of feats there is no need (except RP but then you could just be a WM) to take more levels. Talking about fighter 40 is a joke as almost any melee build is better than that. The fighter is still his own class just as the cleric and wizard are. It doesnt exist solely as a means of "getting your build with all the trimmings".

This paragraph is pretty irrelevant, I am sorry. This discussion is not concerned with other servers, especially PvP servers, and what they do on them. This suggestion has nothing whatsoever to do with other servers. Please do not try to obfuscate or confuse the issue further, it is irritating and pointless.

The Fighter class is intended for two things, getting a particular build with all the trimmings, or multiclassing to meet feat requirements the fastest. It is, and will remain, the most versatile class in the entire game.

4) Feat chain lengths and increasing chain numbers. Doing that will only result in exclusive feats in that most classes cannot get them all but they can get the chain they focus in. Saying that it makes feats exclusive is a non-sequitur as many things in the game are exclusive and require a level investment in a class to obtain, eg sneak attack, magic, animal companions, rage etc.

I would like to ask that this part of discussion be ended and that you or blackdragon create a new thread for this totally separate suggestion. It is also irrelevant to this thread, and belongs in its own thread.

In conclusion; i actually like Davy's idea I just think the reasoning behind it is flawed. I do feel however that once Amethyst dragon has the time (poor guy ) more feats for the melee classes is imperative as they are lacking quite abit compared to casters at present.

I am glad you like the idea. I am curious what flaws you see in the reasoning, because while you state they exist, you have yet to demonstrate them. Please make a new thread for extending feat chains and reserve further comments on that idea for that new thread, thanks

I am also going to ask nicely one time. Please do not ever call me Davy. It upsets me. I do not like it at all. Thanks.

Not to harp on the point... but another point with the "only 12 fighter is needed" argument.

How about 7 weapon master?

If they're so god awfully powerful, the crem de la crem of the full AB classes...

AB bonus? AA's blow that out of the water hands down with their +15 enhancement, which is stackable with attack bonus on their weapon.

More ki-damage uses? Several other classes have their abilities get more uses per day with more class levels.

Bonus feats? Every class gets epic bonus feats.

What exactly are those extra 23 weapon master levels offering that isn't surpassed by other classes, and is better than taking 23 more fighter levels? The possibility to take on multiple weapons of choice (which requires 2 feats on top of the already hefty WM requirements... five more feats to get the most benefit, not counting overwhelming/dev crit if it's a STR build).

Hmm i don't quite get the hostility it is merely an opinion. If those are not needed or wanted just say...

Additionally the ad hominem is not called for about the PvP environment. Yes against constructs and undead WM suffers but so do fighters and even paladins against constructs. That in no way invalidates the point that WM is mechanically very powerful (against crit susceptible things).

As for obfuscating the issue it was merely background to set the suggestion into context. However you are right to say what happens on other servers is of no import here.

That aside...

I do think it is a good idea and I do agree that some exclusive features should be at least partially available to certain other classes eg HiPs to assassins, rogues, rangers, Animal companions to barbarians with a feat, limited sneak attack with a feat investment ,nature sense to rangers etc.

The availability of WS and EWS to WM will not unduly affect anything and it thematically fits WM. I stand by my initial assertion that more feats will help the fighter and other melee orientated classes, and it will give fighter something to use all those feats on - ''but that's all I've got to say about that'' .

No hostility on my end. If you take my posts as such, please don't. I'm arguing the points of the debate, not the person.

Hmm i don't quite get the hostility it is merely an opinion. If those are not needed or wanted just say...

There is no hostility. There is only irritation up to this point. Your timing in arriving to defend blackdragons opinion is very convenient and causes this discussion of a contrary opinion with little to no factual support to drag on needlessly and waste my own and others time. That is, understandably, irritating.

Additionally the ad hominem is not called for about the PvP environment.

There is a connection between the feedback provided by both of you and your PvP backgrounds. Whether you admit it or not, it does affect your reasoning. Please see the HiPS thread for a perfect example of this. I was merely trying to save us both some frustration by pointing out that such concepts are not relevant.

If the connection was false, then it would be ad hominem. The connection is factual, relevant, and quite real, as is its effect on these discussion, therefore, no ad hominem.

Yes against constructs and undead WM suffers but so do fighters and even paladins against constructs. That in no way invalidates the point that WM is mechanically very powerful (against crit susceptible things).

So are rogues, with their sneak attacks... but they dont have 6 feat requirements, and they get a lot more than just sneak attacks for their level investment. Weapon Master's class features are quite good situationally, but realistically, the cost is not in proportion to the benefit.

As for obfuscating the issue it was merely background to set the suggestion into context. However you are right to say what happens on other servers is of no import here.

Cool, no harm no foul

I do think it is a good idea and I do agree that some exclusive features should be at least partially available to certain other classes eg HiPs to assassins, rogues, rangers, Animal companions to barbarians with a feat, limited sneak attack with a feat investment ,nature sense to rangers etc.

Ok, thats fine. Lets keep this thread focused on Weapon Specialization, Fighters, and Weapon Masters.

The availability of WS and EWS to WM will not unduly affect anything and it thematically fits WM.

Awesome. So, one more in favor then. Sweet.

I stand by my initial assertion that more feats will help the fighter and other melee orientated classes, and it will give fighter something to use all those feats on - ''but that's all I've got to say about that'' .

So, then you must like the idea of giving Fighters access to Great Strength and Great Constitution as bonus feats, then, yes?

I'm opposed to it on the basis that its all the fighter has that is unique to him. There's nothing else thats solely for him. I'm irritated because my idea of giving something to the fighter in the form of extending feat chains was thrown out of the window for being absurd. Archery has a mere three feats! But clearly we're not gonna see eye to eye on this so I have nothing more to say here.

Thanks for the suggestion, i will make a thread about feats i'd like to see added to boost all the melee classes (and thus particularly the fighter).

I'm opposed to it on the basis that its all the fighter has that is unique to him. There's nothing else thats solely for him.

This statement has previously been demonstrated to be false. Please re-read previous posts, and stop wasting time with it.

In addition, the suggestion involves granting Fighters the Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Focus, and Epic Weapon Specialization feats for free. That is something no other class would have, making it unique to fighters.

On top of this, the suggestion involves Fighters gaining access to both Great Strength and Great Constitution as bonus feats. Again, this would be completely and totally unique to Fighters.

I'm irritated because my idea of giving something to the fighter in the form of extending feat chains was thrown out of the window for being absurd. Archery has a mere three feats! But clearly we're not gonna see eye to eye on this so I have nothing more to say here.

The word absurd was never used or implied. Please create a new thread for this idea and reserve all comments related to it for that other thread. It is not relevant to this thread. Thanks

Once again, in summation:

Spoiler:

I just read this from the NWN Wiki and figured it would be good to post it here...

Although the ultimate specialist in a single weapon, weapon masters cannot take weapon specialization and epic weapon specialization without taking at least 4 fighter levels. One fighter or champion of Torm epic level must be taken for epic weapon specialization, leaving room for 29 weapon master levels. The last weapon master bonus feat and attack bonus increase is at level 28, so not much is lost by going that route.

But I still like the idea .....

So, the part you wanted to highlight was that it only requires 4 Fighter levels?

Yes, if you take the 4th fighter level in epic levels on an Epic General feat level, you can get epic weapon spec with only the 4 (provided you already have epic weapon focus, too).

Thanks, bro, but this is not new info, though, Rusty.

It still forces Weapon Masters to have fighter levels to gain Weapon Spec, and at least one epic level must be a fighter level if they want Epic Weapon Spec.

If you are referencing one of my previous comments responding to the question "will it really hurt a Weapon Master build that much to take epic fighter levels?" then please note that I qualified with "depending on the build..."

That qualifier was intended in reference to builds that have more than just fighter and weapon master levels, as there are plenty of good class features that the fighter/weaponmaster combo cannot provide.

I am glad you like the idea though. I think it would go a long ways toward helping both classes fulfill their intent and theme better

Spoiler:

So on re-reading through the thread.. your actually proposing that WM get access to Weapon Spec without needing only 4Ftr levels but instead investing in (just over-double) 10WM levels .. and thus also access to EWS in the epic stages ... .... that makes perfect sense to me ... ...

Playing a non-ftr-based WM myself (Jay is a Rgr/Rog/WM) this would be awesome... it fits with the WM class really well.. it doesn't take anything in particular away from the Ftr either.. they get access WAY earlier (if built correctly, with only a 4lv investment, and can gain up to 21 feats ~ the only class that can reliably go the "two"-weapon focused, dev-criting, improved whirlwind attack route, supreme master of fighting anything in any mode route)....

What it will open is a ton more choices for people .... Invest 4lvs of Ftr for EWS and extra feats, etc etc.. or 10lvs or WM (with all it's hefty req's)... either route will make some pretty interesting builds and playstyles available to the players of Aenea ..... the more I think about it the more the suggestion makes sense .... ....


Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec and their epic counterparts for free is a stroke of genius... I do not know of ANY Ftr builds that DON'T include wasting feats on what should IMO be free abilities to the Ftr class ... although I can kinda understand why they aren't (they force a Ftr to pick a "favourite weapon type" (aka a Weapon of Choice, leading away from the generic fighter can any weapon basis)... not that it really matters with all the feats a Ftr has access to, they can get plenty more weapons to focus & spec in .. )...


Adding Great Str/Con as a ftr epic bonus feat is also an awesome idea, and considering that no-class currently gets these and they fit that class (extensive fighting is bound to make you stronger and fitter), I have no idea why this isn't done already ....

Not sure I can agree on Gt.Dex for WM though ?.. I missed the reason behind that.... ... ...

Yes, sir. That pretty much summed up most of it nicely.

RustyDios wrote:Not sure I can agree on Gt.Dex for WM though ?.. I missed the reason behind that.... ... ...

I went into it in the Acrobat thread, not so much in this one, so mea culpa

Basically, Weapon masters.... they dont require any feats that require any physical stats other than Dexterity (Dodge - Dex 13+, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whilrwind, Expertise - Int 13+, Weapon Focus).

You don't need to be strong or tough to become a Weapon Master. You need to be quick, agile, and smart.

Add to this that Weapon Masters only good save category is reflex saves, and you begin to see how Weapon Masters and Acrobats are both all about being jumpy-dodgey, acrobatic, agility-based Warriors.

Great Dexterity as a bonus feat is perfectly fitting in that case. They don't get it for free, and the player is not forced to choose it if the build is Strength-focused, but it should be there.

Thank you for the opinions and discussions. Seems to be getting a bit heated (as can happen in a forum for a game that many dedicate much of their time to).

Going to lock this thread for a while, leaving it here for me to read through a few more times once I've got more time. I'll reopen it again in the future.

Digging into some past suggestions.

daveyeisley wrote:I think we should add Epic Weapon Specialization to the Weapon Master bonus feat list.

Going into the next hak update.