Other games we play

And now, for Star Wars geeks everywhere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG9-Ijbk3_8&feature=g-trend

Amazing talent!

Oh, wow. Indeed that is some amazing talent he got there! :O

A P.S. to my earlier comments about the Thief games. I've discovered that Thief Deadly Shadows has the capability for third-person perspective, so I've installed it again to try out.

Fpr SWTOR fans, the new v1.3 patch is ready for installation. Here are the patch notes:

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

Anybody here playing SWTOR? If so what classes and servers are ya on? I play on Drooga's Pleasure Barge Empire, got a lvl 19 Sith Juggernaut, and a lvl 12 Sith Assassin. Looking for a few people I have played with here to maybe do some runs there with sometime

Finishing up on my SWTOR sub now; have 50th Sorcerer, Merc, and Gunnery Trooper as part of family Ebonslayer, and had fun getting them there.

But as I enjoyed solo play, and the NWN1 anniversary break made me all too aware of how challenging MMO play can be as opposed to other RPG's; felt more like work than fun, so am unsubbing for now. Still, I may return later when the new ship combat is added; quite enjoyed it myself, as this is one of the few mini-games I was able to play well.

I've been continuing to poke around in Oblivion, but it's been a mixture of appreciation of the scope and beauty of the gameworld weighed against the totally frustrating mechanics (on PC).

It seems like I'm spending more time searching for mods to make it playable than I am immersed in the game. First off, before I started my game, I loaded the unofficial bugfix patches (and I suppose that is working, although it cut a really useful ring out of the game). Then after playing the game for a while trying to get used to the controls, I thought that if I could just fix the bow and arrrows to actually shoot something (and hit a target outside of melee range), then I might forgive the incredibly poor targeting for any type of attack (coupled with the impossibility of actually keeping the target centered in one's sights during melee combat because the camera wildly swings locked to the PC viewing direction, and that's in 3rd person even), the beyond totally inadequate quickslot procedure for using spells or anything at all in an actual quick and ready fashion, the difficult leveling issues, the really tricky four-fingered control (on the PC) for horse riding, the lack of trapmaking, etc etc.

But the mods I've found for increasing the effectiveness of bows and arrows don't have their downloads attached anymore. I saw a couple mods that fixed the velocity physics of the arrows, extended the range of the bow, corrected the arc of the trajectory, etc, but I couldn't find any files to download. I'm not even asking for ueber-gear, just something that makes the bow a viable weapon, that can actually shoot a hostile before said hostile gets within melee range to cut me down. Yeah, if I could just fix that, I may have a mod for the quickslots issue, and I could deal with the rest. ALthough so far, the more I try to play the Elder Scrolls series, the more I appreciate NWN (esp for a sensible and useful camera and ease of targeting) and especially the custom mods of Aenea (experienced based tradeskills are implemented so much better here), so without some break in the clouds, I may just delete Oblivion and call the whole experience inadequate.

So, I'm asking if any of you have or know of a still-existent Oblivion mod to make the bow and arrow more effective?

Here is an announcement that may interest some gamers:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/199/index/14105407

Nine games for about $30 at GOG.com, that's a great deal.

It was after I won the free NWN1 that caused me sign up at GOG.com, that I noticed that they had a bunch of these Good Old Games.

Planescape: Torment was listed as one of the best CRPGs of all time, so I've picked it up, and just got all the user fixes for it installed, so I'll be trying that one out.

Besides the two games: Skyrim and NWN2 (neither of which I have played much the past half year).
I do enjoy a good game of Mafia. For those not familiar with the original idea, they can read up on it here - It's a murder mystery game; I play the game with people over IRC and their customary version of the game* is quite addictive and very much enjoyable to play.
*Based upon the manga Detective Conan, also known as Case Closed in the USA...

So, curiosity got the better of me, and I just installed NwN2 on both PCs. Hmmm, don't quite know what I'm in for, but I did find some interesting overrides to install.

Eric of Atrophy wrote:So, curiosity got the better of me, and I just installed NwN2 on both PCs. Hmmm, don't quite know what I'm in for, but I did find some interesting overrides to install.

Don't know if I'm regretting asking this*...but which overrides has you come across?

*I mean, that twisted smiley kinda spells doom... x:

AoD - overrides without pants! (Those are my faves!)

I must say, I think the camera system for NwN2 is absolutely terrible. I saw someone post a similar sentiment, that it made me want to go out and punch the faces of all the developers. I mean, after being used to NwN's awesome camera setup, to have to relearn how to play a game solely because the camera is ass, that burns my bacon. I will likely abandon my attempt to play through the campaign, and just go straight to a module to see what the armor/weapon systems are like.

Initial impression - not so good.

I hated the camera on NWN2 OC, couldn't manoeuvre at all. But the expansions fixed the camera a little bit, because after that I got used to it.

The thing that annoyed me most in NWN2 was the stiff, unnatural poses that all the characters use.

Eric of Atrophy wrote:AoD - overrides without pants! (Those are my faves!)

Ah. Had a feeling it was something like that...

Eric of Atrophy wrote:AoD - overrides without pants! (Those are my faves!)

I must say, I think the camera system for NwN2 is absolutely terrible. I saw someone post a similar sentiment, that it made me want to go out and punch the faces of all the developers. I mean, after being used to NwN's awesome camera setup, to have to relearn how to play a game solely because the camera is ass, that burns my bacon. I will likely abandon my attempt to play through the campaign, and just go straight to a module to see what the armor/weapon systems are like.

Initial impression - not so good.

Ramana Jala wrote:I hated the camera on NWN2 OC, couldn't manoeuvre at all. But the expansions fixed the camera a little bit, because after that I got used to it.

Yes, the camera function for NWN2 is absolutely horrible. It was quite a game-breaker for me, until I found a way to setup the camera to be as close as NWN1 camera angle as possible. I'll be more than happy to share the specifics of how I set it up with you guys too, if it can help you enjoy the game better.

I'd love to hear how you did it AoD, I have installed and uninstalled that game on more then one occasion because of the camera issues.

And..... Hey Eric! Ya mind pm'ing me where ya found such overrides? I have scoured and must have been looking in the wrong places

Angel of Death wrote:
Yes, the camera function for NWN2 is absolutely horrible. It was quite a game-breaker for me, until I found a way to setup the camera to be as close as NWN1 camera angle as possible. I'll be more than happy to share the specifics of how I set it up with you guys too, if it can help you enjoy the game better.

Please do share that! Like I said, after the expansions I got it workable, but if you maybe got something more on how to make the camera more like NWN1, I'd love to know! Thank you!

Alright! Here's what I did...

---


1. Go into "Exploration" mode.
By default, NWN2 starts in "Strategy" mode, which is very clunky. The first thing you want to do is go into Exploration mode by clicking on the spyglass button at the bottom of your screen:


2. Set camera focus to your character.
Open the Options Menu, (hit ESC, then select Options), and navigate to the "Exploration Mode" tab. From here, you want to set "Camera Focus" to "Directly on Controlled Character". You may also want to modify the mouse settings on the right-hand side, but this is up to you; the slower settings are much closer to NWN1's settings.


3. Set Right-Click menus to appear (almost) instantly.
While you can't get the right-click menus quite as fast as NWN1's, you can get them pretty darn close, with only about a tenth-second delay. Navigate to the "Interface" tab in game options, and slide this bar all the way down:


There you go! It should be much easier for you to navigate, now, if you are used to NWN1. Though I make no guarantees it's 100% fool-proof, it's pretty darn close to what the NWN1-style camera is like. Works for me anyhow, and I hope it does for you too!

That does seem a bit better! Thank you!

I had the Focus on Close instead of Directly.

I'll play around with it a little more the next time I play.

Thanks again!

Thanks for that, AoD! Definitely give it a spin soon and kick that crappy cam to the curb!

No problem, Eric...

Seeing as there's quite a few of us which got nwn2...

Thought it might be nice if we had come across some custom content worth recommending, that we could share it here.

Personally I can recommend:

• Xaltar's facelift Pack
  
• NENs Final Face-Head-Hair Combination Project - NWN2 <- Not sure if it works with above, but it's a nice alternative at least...
  
• Kaedrin's PrC Pack -- Found a list for which modules work with Kaedrin's PrC Pack, click here to go there and check it out!
  
• Tony K's Companion and Monster AI 2.2
  

As for improved GUI overrides, there's...

• Tchos HD UI panels and dialogue compilation and expansion
  

_{^Especially nice if you have got a screen resolution of 1920x1080 - but it can work for smaller HD resolutions too...}

For SP Modules...if you like playing a spellcaster-type, I can highly recommend the Wizard's Apprentice Series.

• The Wizards Apprentice
  
• The Wizards Apprentice Chapter II
  

The modules below is on the list of modules I plan to play-through if/when time permits it...

1. Fanglewood
   
2. North of the Moonsea
   
3. Edinmoor
   
4. Icewind Dale - NWN2
   
5. The Corruption of Kiahoro _{<- Author's words says it's built around a fighter or rogue. Both this and Traveller are low magic & low level oriented. So if you favour high-level play it's probably not for you. ^^'}
   
6. ^-- It's "sort of" sequel: Traveller
   
7. Mysteries of Westgate <- In some situations bards and rogues gains an advantage over other classes. Or so the author(s) says.
   
8. Islander - A Dagger Forged
   
9. The Black Scourge of Candle Cove <-- This module hasn't been finished yet. But I definitely wish to play through it once Tchos complete it, seeing as I have read the author's diary entries/blog about it on the NWN Nexus Discussion forum.
   

As far as I can see, they are "fair-play for all classes/races", and they are quite large too with multiple endings--which is always a big plus for me. =D

Thanks for the tip on the modules, AoD. I'd been looking at the Vault for what NWN 2 modules might be good, and so your recommendation is quite appreciated.

I also like rogueish modules, if you know any good ones.

Also, I love the theory of Kaedrin's PrC Pack, and have wondered if there were any modules using that?

Ramana Jala wrote:Also, I love the theory of Kaedrin's PrC Pack, and have wondered if there were any modules using that?

It works with the Wizard's Apprentice modules, both of them...

Hmm, not sure if I have seen any which has been built around the rogue's mindset before...

*Edit edits*

Updated my post above with more goodies should anyone be interested. Feel free to share your own finds, the more goodies the better.

Torment: Tides of Numeria has gotten its kickstart and is proceeding.

Here is their video, game description starts after about 4 minutes.




And P.S., as I just mentioned in this thread, Another Server, I've been looking into Star Wars: Contrition (a NWN1 PW), and thought I should reference it here, being as it really is an entirely 'other' game despite being with NWN1 base mechanics.

Ramana Jala wrote:
I also like rogueish modules, if you know any good ones.

If you like rogueish modules, the newly released NWN2 module Crimmor, created by Kamal, is definitely a must!

* It's made for Rogues in mind, but a sneaky bard could likely manage as well.
* It's more Roleplay Oriented though (You only get XP for completing quests), so if you're more into Hack n' Slash type of play, it's not really for you.
* It makes use of a custom Lock System where you actually has to fiddle with the tumblers of a lock to open locked doors. It's possible to jam a lock if you fail too many times, too. Totally different (and much better, in my humble opinion) style than the normal NWN behaviour of picking locks which doesn't require much skill.

While I haven't completed the campaign yet, I'm having a blast so far in my journey through.

Small update: I feel as though this might be important to some to make a mention about...
The module, Crimmor, is quite large in size, uncompressed, it fills up a good gigabyte of it's own (campaign folder+haks). So if your machine isn't very powerful, be prepared for long loading times when switching between areas.

Despite of that though, I wouldn't think twice about downloading it again. There's just so much going in the game that make you feel completely immersed in a very, very short time after having created your character and gotten in game. =)

There's a few quirks here and there, as with any newly uploaded module. Although I haven't seen any game hindering problems yet (just the ordinary typo here and there in dialogues and descriptions).

Sounds great to me, AoD! I'll be checking that one out for sure!

And thanks again for all the lists above, and your edits thereto. I'm still working through those lists.

And I appreciate your rating and impressions of those modules that you've played.

GOG had a huge D&D package sale, and NWN2 Complete was part of it. I have been using the camera tips suggested, and this has helped. Thanks AoD!

This makes me appreciate NWN1 and Bioware even more, as the sequel UI and mechanics seem counter-intuitive; appears to require turning the other direction to gain the correct perspective. Weird!

Been playing MotB, and like most of it. However, the huge amount of lore thrown in almost makes me wish to rush past dialogues and skipping Lore as a skill to avoid it all. One should not be a Lore Monger to enjoy a given world, IMO.

One problem I have is that the Quickcast system does not always appear, and this seems to be the only way to cast spells. Anyone else have this trouble? Know of a fix? Thanks!

The UI is actually an improvement IMO. A huge one. The biggest improvement is that it's not hardcoded like NWN1's UI, it's xml based. If you don't like the out-of-the-box UI, with a little bit of know-how, you can completely redesign your UI. An XML based UI coupled with the mechanics of the game (another improvement, 3.5 rules, and a decent number of 'behind the scenes' differences) also allows some neat stuff to be one.... PrCs with proper spells per day to their base casting classes, blackguard/assassin spellbooks.... one module, Dark Waters I think it's called... the author even had a "guitar hero" style minigame with it's own UI window.

As for the quickcast not showing up.... it's been a while since I played NWN2 (my current netbook won't run it)... Check to make sure that you don't have it set to hide/show with a key that you're using often (if there is such an option, been a while as I said).

If that's not the case. Then make sure that you have a completely empty override folder As mentioned, the UI is XML based, so you could have something in the override folder mucking it up.

If you have the game itself installed in the "program files" directory, and you're using window 7 or 8 (and I think even vista does this).... you're gonna have to do some hunting in windows explorer to make sure your override is actually "empty" as far as the game is concerned. Long story short, windows 7 and 8 creates a mirror copy of some of the program's files and directory structures in a hidden folder. Generally you do not need to muck about with that hidden copy, and really shouldn't either, but now and then it does cause issues, especially with games that have custom content deals going.

If you got nothing in the override, and aren't hiding/showing it with errant key presses, another guess would be maybe you've moved the quickcast element off to the side of the screen mostly out of view? I know you can drag the quickcast menu to different places on screen, I forget if you could drag it "off screen" as it were though. If so, and you did, you'll have to reset your UI window placements

Thanks; will look at the override file soon, though all I have done is install the game. The hotkey in question is the default 'F' key, so that appears OK. And the QC appears after a reload or so; location is seemingly OK.

My Techless is showing again. I said UI, but meant the mechanics that spin the camera angle utilizing the arrow keys. If I wish to rotate in one direction, choosing the opposite arrow key is required. The UI is fine; too bad Hiding it is not recommended.

Ah, ok. I haven't played NWN2 in a long time (and can't on my current PC)..... but isn't there a options menu to change key configurations? The default setup may suck, but then again, nobody will ever put out a default keymapping that everybody is absolutely happy with (hell, I play all my games with a xbox controller hooked through xpadder.... I dont think a single one of my games uses anything remotely like their default keymaps lol)

Yep; had to get my Tab illumination key back on my first day. I mean, it is second nature for my games.

Ramana Jala wrote:
Torment:  Tides of Numeria has gotten its kickstart and is proceeding.

Here is their video, game description starts after about 4 minutes.

Ps:T is one of my all time fave crpgs so I went and plunked down some cash at the $28 level. Can't wait for 12/14 (or as late as 3/15) to get my grubby mitts on it!

As one who wiled away many hours playing/creating games in FRUA (user created games were distributed primarily via BBSes) the following open source project caught my eye today: Dungeon Craft.

Just completed Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn for the first time. Gotta say one of the best combat rpgs I've ever played. Compelling story lines and amazing cutscenes (not many, but the few there are, are gorgeous, well directed, and meaningful).

It took about 70 hrs to complete on EASY.

Now I've gone back and am playing its predecessor and prequel Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. Then I'll come back and take a shot at HARD difficulty (skipping NORMAL) in replay of FE:RD. Yes, it's that good...   

My rule in these games is no characters are allowed to die, if I lose a character in battle I immediately reset and try a different tactic for the battle. Death is PERMANENT (with notable exceptions made for a very few plot PCs) in the game, so fewer characters are available to fight in each subsequent battle if you experience dead loss. Also, turns out that it will close RP branches dependent on particular characters being in the army, which makes sense. And finally, when you beat the game you get the best "good job!" credits roll that I've ever seen, it lasts about 60 minutes and you can only get the "perfect" ending if all PCs are still alive.

It's funny my self-inflicted "rule" turned out to majorly affect the game! And I didn't even know it at the time...

If you liked FE:RD you will love Fire Emblem : Awakening on the 3DS. Very similar game Stragey based RPG. Awesome 3Deffects. Sweet cutscenes. Character Supports. Marriage and Children units. The designers put in two modes of play though.. a casual mode where units only stay dead until the end of the current battle.. and a classic mode when units stay dead, permanently. Also has a ton of DLC. Try playing on the Lunatic mode "with no resets"...

RustyDios wrote:If you liked FE:RD you will love Fire Emblem : Awakening on the 3DS. Very similar game Stragey based RPG. Awesome 3Deffects. Sweet cutscenes. Character Supports. Marriage and Children units. The designers put in two modes of play though.. a casual mode where units only stay dead until the end of the current battle.. and a classic mode when units stay dead, permanently. Also has a ton of DLC. Try playing on the Lunatic mode "with no resets"...

How good is it? I don't currently have a Nintendo gameboy more recent than the GBA. Can it be played on DS or is it only for 3DS?

Is there a home brew/hacking community Nintendo's handhelds like there is for the wii?

I'm asking because I will have to buy the system to play the game (something I'm not above doing).

Well, lets just say.. I got it May last year with my 3DS. Still playing it. Have played about 4 run throughs so far. Trying different strategies and using different characters as my main force. Currently doing a Lunatic+ playthrough in classic mode. Trying to keep everyone alive but have so far lost my main healer and an archer. Training a new healer.

Very good game with lots of replayability and perfect on a portable, as my current lifestyle dictates that I don't get much time for gaming at all. So 10 minutes here and there, option to shut&pause the game at any moment... or an hour or two when time permits.

It is only for 3DS (and 2DS). I know there are 3DS r4 cards out there (ie some form of hacking/homebrew) but I prefer to buy all my games and save the mods for my PC games. So I don't really know. Might even be a whole different story your side of the pond.

I've played FE and FE:Sacred Stones (I think?)... they're good.

The same company also did a military RTS called Advanced Wars: Blackhole Rising. ALmost the same game engine as the GBA FE games.

So I grabbed a used 3DS and a "play it loud" accessory (makes the 3DS have the same form factor as a console controller) so I could hold it more comfortably.

Downloaded from the shop FE:A and EO4. I've become addicted to EO4 and have only played 5 mins of FE:A. I also picked up the DS game FE:SD.

Thanks for the tip!

Well if you've become addicted to EO4 you might like to give this a scan at the Cargo Wharf;

Guild Card Revealed:

Yes. I got addicted to EO4 too

I have been playing XCOM recently; nice to see a tactical game in something besides a good RPG. Then after a few successful sessions, was enticed to trying the Long War EW mod, and *WOW*; an entirely new game!

Not saying it is better, but it is more difficult, but in a good way (thus far; am still rather early in the game). have to take a break after a mission or two due to the intense increase of gameplay. Perhaps others here might like it, it is currently in Beta 10 (though EU is completed).

If you liked XCOM, give Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall (DLC or Director's cut) a go.  It has some of the better gameplay elements of XCOM in it, plus it's shadowrun!  The dragonfall campaign rocks (deadman's switch, the base SRR campaign's not bad, but it's not nearly as good as DF).



Doing a dragonfall run right now with an hybrid dwarf mage-street samurai

^^ What Manny said. That game is freaking awesome - the quality of the writing and story are top-notch, in my opinion on the same level as Bioware. And shadowrun is, to me, the definitive cybermantic-dystopia-noir setting - it is nearly unimaginably fertile ground for gritty, intrigue-ridden stories.

I've actually been playing this recently.  Got my Nyanelle (my Ramana, that's her usual thieves' guild handle, means "little rat" in Elven) playing a magic-touched Elf who's a decker and can handle a rifle reasonably well (might be trying to do too much, always chasing karma points to keep up).  It really scratches the itch for a thievery game, and well done (although... only wish it had more stealth skills and tech... but it's not any sort of problem, as for the most part the game assumes that if the enemy doesn't see you by eye or by cam, they can't hear or otherwise detect you).

One of the things I especially like is that it's turn-based combat, so if something calls you away from your game, it doesn't matter.

I found the convo choices really appropriate and intuitive, until I took Glory to the cult.  I'm still trying to figure how to get what I want out of this situation, and advices recommend various choices which aren't so intuitive.

First time I've played any Shadowrun title, and Dragonfall so impresses me I that might have to go back for previous titles in that world.

Glory's mission rocked.  I think what impressed me about it most was the tough choices, and none were necessarily better than the others. And the music completely nailed the whole feel of that run.

Show of hands... who else ruined Blitz's life when he asked you for relationship advice? 

And for stealth.... there's a fan made UGC which makes use of stealth.  I'm not sure how well it really works (played through as a shoot first, shoot again later type of character), but the author did note that he worked in some mechanics for cover to work as aid to evading detection as well even if the enemies were facing you (provided they didn't see you duck behind that crate, that is).  The UGC's called "A Stich in Time".

Ramana Jala wrote:First time I've played any Shadowrun title, and Dragonfall so impresses me I that might have to go back for previous titles in that world.

I haven't played the sega one, but the SNES one was pretty good.... it's mechanics are a LOT different though, not turn based, gotta target with a cursor.  Also can't create your own runner in that, you play as Jake Armitage, but you can invest karma as you see fit.  A fan (or team of them, not sure) have been working on a SRR remake of the SNES game's story.

Beyond that, computerwise, i think the only other title is shadowrun online (came out around the same time as SRR).

The meat of the shadowrun universe is in it's tabletop material.  You run into a few famous NPCs in deadman's switch, but unless you're familiar with the novels or game source books, you really wouldn't know who Dodger, Johnny Clean, Harlequinn or Hans are in the context of the setting.

MannyJabrielle wrote:Glory's mission rocked.  I think what impressed me about it most was the tough choices, and none were necessarily better than the others. And the music completely nailed the whole feel of that run.

Show of hands... who else ruined Blitz's life when he asked you for relationship advice? 

And for stealth.... there's a fan made UGC which makes use of stealth.  I'm not sure how well it really works (played through as a shoot first, shoot again later type of character), but the author did note that he worked in some mechanics for cover to work as aid to evading detection as well even if the enemies were facing you (provided they didn't see you duck behind that crate, that is).  The UGC's called "A Stich in Time".

I encouraged Blitz to pursue closure. Right up until his girl broke radio silence to warn us both, in no uncertain terms, of the grave risks involved in interaction and politely but firmly asked him to stop. Things worked out, so it was nice.

Glory's mission was tricky on the dialogue for parts, but after having played through it and re-loaded many saves, I was able to figure out what was possible and make those outcomes happen. The nice part was that, there weren't quite 'wrong' choices, there were just different but equally reasonable consequences.

My favorite moment was on my most recent play-through, where I made a twitch-reflex cyber-samurai whose chosen weapon was just a heavy pistol, but who relied on charisma and social etiquette (i picked socialite and academic for his etiquette perks) to resolve interactions where he could - and would fall back on riddling opponents with bullets when they wouldn't parley. I was granted the totally unexpected (based on like 7 or 8 previous playthroughs) and freaking awesome treat of actually being able to convince Vauclair to reconsider his plans. I hadn't thought they actually made that possible, so when I did it, I just kinda sat back and had to process how satisfying that was... and then the Steam achievement popped-up and I felt dumb for not looking at those sooner

Pistol's gotta be me favorite.  Did a shaman playthrough, elf named James Looks-Twice (bonus points if anyone can name the movie that name's from).

Between the haste AP bonus, the no need to spend AP on reloading, and earth elementals, I could steamroll combat.  It was particularly nice when I found that you could have two haste spells (haste II and haste III for example) and they had their own cooldowns.  Instead of using an AP for reload, I used that AP to haste another team member, haste myself, enough spirit control to keep an elemental with 4 AP reliably for several rounds... and nice heavy revolver damage, or nice double-tap/triple target shots with a semi automatic.

Plus, yeah, those nice etiquette perks from the high charisma!

Did a charismatic decker play through...  found it amusing that that there was one run that I could do solo, bypassing all the combat with just two etiquettes, no need to go let the the rest of the team into the building.  Walked in, fast talked, decked, tossed a friendly wave and walked out LOL

Well color me surprised....

SPOILER:  Tell our favorite decker with a trainwreck for a love life to keep his gawddamn head in the game and stop being a muppet.... then check your emails later on (last run or so before paying off Alice's fee).