Not Used: unrestrict boots of the wanderer

SUGGESTION-
make 'boots of the wanderer' open to all clerics.

ARGUMENT-
gort's profile doesn't make him the god of increased ac, additional attacks and 2x spells per round ; it makes him out as 'the wandering god'. i can understand how a set of boots made by+for his clerics would grant the wearer increased mvt base, that fits the profile -- and the printed description of the boots -- but permahaste doesn't. so if there's a precedent where clerics can get permahaste, i think it should be open to all of them. in addition, clerics aren't nearly as gifted as fighters in combat and, on aenea, not nearly as gifted in spellcasting as wizards [especially after some of their high-level offensive spells, already sparse to begin with, have either been restricted or completely disallowed to most clerics], so allowing them to use the 'boots of the wanderer' would go a long way toward evening the score.

I would not mind this being granted to Epic lvl Clerics (or any Epic class) with 21+ more lvls invested in that class, but do believe restricting Perm Haste devices is a good thing considering the unbalanced nature of the spell.

Yea ive always wanted those boots for my toons...but like elhanan says, its cause they double spellcasting...mvt...and attacks and grant +5 ac. Which just means all players would get them...then were all moving at an ungodly speed and looks out of place.

Not to mention then every build would have them(boot of speed) in its makeup like on my dark sun server i played and dm'd on. It really frustrated me to see every build posted on the forum to include em.

I never had such issues with permahaste, but if it were going to be allowed to clerics, remember it is an arcane spell, and there isn't any reason arcane casters should be excluded.

As it stands Gort clerics having access after 10 levels rankles a bit, but not nearly as much as the idea of all clerics having access when sorcerors and wizards don't.

Personally, the problem I have with Haste is that it is too overpowered for a 3rd lvl spell. If this were a 7th+ lvl effect based on on a progression of prior spells allowing speed, a casting bonus, AC bonus, etc, then it would be a little more in line. But Perm Haste tends to break pre-Epic play.

Now Epic is another story entirely, and if allowed I would also be of a mind that Mages should have access to it, as well as Divnely gifted clergy.

The spell itself I think is OK simply for the fact that it is 1 round per caster level in duration - at 5th level when a wizard gains access they get 5 rounds of effect for use if their highest level available spell slot - hardly gamebreaking.

Permahaste does break that limitation, but its still not the horrific end-of-the-world some folks make it out to be. The reason everybody would want it is because the benefits it grants are very attractive. Make them work to get it, but don't disallow it out of hand...

Difficulty to acquire is the counter to such power... and perhaps an epic level restriction, too.

daveyeisley wrote:Permahaste does break that limitation, but its still not the horrific end-of-the-world some folks make it out to be. The reason everybody would want it is because the benefits it grants are very attractive. Make them work to get it, but don't disallow it out of hand...

Difficulty to acquire is the counter to such power... and perhaps an epic level restriction, too.

i like that approach. it sounds like a reasonable compromise.

...but what sayeth our fearless leader about all this?

Truly, Dave speaks the truth.

Haste allows a second spell to be cast each rnd in addition to the other effects, as well as besting Initiative over other sources including the 4 slot Quicken meta-magic. Plus, Haste does not have the spell restrictions of the feat.

Toss in additional duration with single slot Extend meta-magic, and you can quickly reason why the Haste spell is more popular then the far more costly feat, and is almost always on Mage spell lists.

Haste, Harm, and Heal are the most imbalanced and broken spells of 3E and NWN1. IMO.

I would refute some of the reasoning there, but it's not likely to change Anyone's mind. I think it is important to clarify references to the haste spell versus permahaste and also the quicken spell feat versus auto-quicken.

To each their own, I suppose. Permahaste may be mechanically better than auto-quicken - but that In no way makes either one too powerful. The cost of auto quicken can be balanced by hoop-jumping and level restrictions on permAhaste.

There is no rational argument that it cannot be done, just questionable reasoning that it should not be done.

Elhanan wrote:Haste, Harm, and Heal are the most imbalanced and broken spells of 3E and NWN1. IMO.

well now, hold on there, compadre, no use dragging pnp into this.

3e haste is very different from nwn haste ; you get only +1 to ac, you get an add'l attack / round, but you don't get an additional spellcast, and you age a whole year every time you're hasted.

harm and heal are also much less powerful in pnp, relatively speaking, due to the context. it often takes years to get to 20th level in pnp [or always seemed to in the games i played... ], so a spellcaster w/levels in the teens was pretty hot ****, and hp's were fewer all around. in this context, heal and harm affect fewer hp's in general so the progression is actually a lot more linear, there are fewer of those spells available per caster, and there are much fewer casters available who could cast those spells. in nwn, you can often reach 40th in a matter of days [of concentrated playing, depending on the module], and there's no built-in continued progression for spells in vanilla nwn, such as the epic spell rules, as there is in pnp [which is one of the reasons i was so gung-ho to join aenea after i read about the full-fledged epic spell system, which should solve a lot of longstanding scaleability issues w/spellcaster leveling in nwn].

but, yeah... i seem to've digressed. the haste mechanics in nwn are what they are, and much of that can't be changed. i think the question is 'under what conditions should permahaste be allowed'. i personally like daveyeisley's approach, because it allows for the idea of balancing that power while still maintaining a certain openness to its use. yes, it may take more effort and creativity to implement than a blanket 'no permahaste allowed' ruling, but hell, creativite approaches to nwn is one of the things that sets this pw apart from so many other ones.

oh, how cute. it put stars where i typed the s-word. {:?

titus wrote:

Elhanan wrote:Haste, Harm, and Heal are the most imbalanced and broken spells of 3E and NWN1. IMO.

well now, hold on there, compadre, no use dragging pnp into this.

3e haste is very different from nwn haste ; you get only +1 to ac, you get an add'l attack / round, but you don't get an additional spellcast, and you age a whole year every time you're hasted.

harm and heal are also much less powerful in pnp, relatively speaking, due to the context. it often takes years to get to 20th level in pnp [or always seemed to in the games i played... ], so a spellcaster w/levels in the teens was pretty hot ****, and hp's were fewer all around. in this context, heal and harm affect fewer hp's in general so the progression is actually a lot more linear, there are fewer of those spells available per caster, and there are much fewer casters available who could cast those spells. in nwn, you can often reach 40th in a matter of days [of concentrated playing, depending on the module], and there's no built-in continued progression for spells in vanilla nwn, such as the epic spell rules, as there is in pnp [which is one of the reasons i was so gung-ho to join aenea after i read about the full-fledged epic spell system, which should solve a lot of longstanding scaleability issues w/spellcaster leveling in nwn].

but, yeah... i seem to've digressed. the haste mechanics in nwn are what they are, and much of that can't be changed. i think the question is 'under what conditions should permahaste be allowed'. i personally like daveyeisley's approach, because it allows for the idea of balancing that power while still maintaining a certain openness to its use. yes, it may take more effort and creativity to implement than a blanket 'no permahaste allowed' ruling, but hell, creativite approaches to nwn is one of the things that sets this pw apart from so many other ones.

Pls do not confuse 3E with later fixes; do not even know if any 3E materials are available from D&D any longer. Here is an article that makes some ref:

http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/04/spells-through-ages-haste.html

Note this especially:

"...Haste: ... The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. On its turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after its regular action. The subject gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. The subject loses this bonus whenever it would lose a dodge bonus. The subject can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus. Haste dispels and counters slow. [3.0 SRD]

Now, this is more radically changed than most spells in the 2E -> 3E switch. The effect is more limited in creatures affected (just one!), range (25 feet + 5/2 levels), and duration (1 round/level). You get a +4 AC included in the spell (somewhat like 1E boots of speed and BXCMI double-hasting language). Aging is persona non grata in this ruleset, so that's not present.

More keenly however, the core effect of the spell is now: "an extra partial action", which is basically whatever "normal" thing you can do in a round, any one of: (1) an extra move, (2) one more attack, or (3) an extra spell. (!) That last bit is an enormous break with the strict "no extra spells" rule that was consistent in 1E, 2E, and BXCMI. It was so potent in 3E that some people argued it would still be desirable as a 9th level spell for any casters. Ultimately, WOTC adventures wound up having almost every NPC wizard with haste ready as their first action in any fight. This was perhaps the #1 item on the list of things that really needed fixing in the 3.5 update: ..."

As for Harm & Heal, spells that are made easier to bring Dragons and Undead to 1-4 hp (eg; size bonuses) without ST seems way off to me. In NWN1, I try and use these as last result options when other tactics have failed. And not getting fixed was on Atari; not Bioware, as they did manage to repair the Ranger class a great deal.

My main issue is folks who rail against 2 spells being cast in a round due to haste as too powerful.

Its widely accepted that 2 spells cast in a round is powerful, but not gamebreaking. Haste is not the only mechanic that allows for it.

My opinion, and one that is apparently shared by many of both 3E and 3.5E's designers is that casters need a mechanic to increase their cast rate at a certain point. Opinions may vary on when or where that should happen, but the need is definitely expressed over multiple iterations of the system since 3E.

The other effects of an AC bonus, movement speed, extra attack, or even initative bonus (which NWN does not include) are certainly nice to have, but neither they, nor the extra spell per round "break" the combat system as is so often suggested.

Before I belabor the point, I will leave it to others to investigate these other mechanics, and determine for themselves if all such mechanics should be stripped from the game and how that would affect balance between high-level casters against high level warriors.

As a spell I don't think Haste (or Mass Haste) are game breaking spells, purely because at some point they will expire and need re-casting...

But PermaHaste IS maybe too powerful... I rather liked the way it was/is limited in Aenea to a few select paths (there is at least one more way to get PermaHaste in Aenea, although the other option that I'm thinking of does actually require some maintenance and some planning)...

As it is an arcane spell at it's roots I've wondered why there isn't an Arcane option for getting PermaHaste (Boots of the Running Mage, a step up from boots of Striding and Springing)....

As it currently stands at least there is an option, where it could just be flat-out banned...

I think maybe there should be a PermaHaste item in Aenea, using the custom ILR, for PC's (of all types) past lv.30-35 ... as that is really when you want the collection of bonuses to be permanent... ... ... BUT, I think it would make PermaHaste "less special in Aenea" for some reason... ... ... ...

Maybe the boots in question need changing from giving permahaste to giving 200% movement rate (speed similar to a high level monk) and that would more fit what I think the intention was (priests of Gort can move faster then normal people, because they travel everywhere?) ....


Until now I haven't really given it much thought, I just accepted that if you want permahaste in Aenea then you need a 10th lev + Cleric of Gort.... and didn't see it as a problem in any way, just another quirk of the world... ...


Maybe it would be better if the other clergy all had 10th lev+ deity specific items which grant something no-one else can get? ... How about mystara clerics getting a "beholder mirror shield" that makes you immune to any ray from a beholder?.. or Lysis clerics not using uses of "them bracers" ?... or Kalas clerics not having to pay for ID at the alters ?... ... what if ALL (class+deity) choices got an item that grants something that can't be gotten by a different set-up... ...


But ideally the question still stands, should the Boots of the Wanderer be unrestricted... my opinion thus far is... erm... NO.... ... and people can shout at me until they are blue in the face with their arguments, I'm going to be all stubborn about it ... Yes, I agree with most of the arguments put forth, but I just don't think it should change ... ... ... that is not to say that maybe there should be "other" options for those that want permahaste, or at least an option for arcane mages (even open the ability to add haste to a custom item of xxx value or above?) .... ... ... ... ...

I definitely think the idea has morphed at this point from unrestricting the boots, to making some other option for permahaste for epic PCs. Got clerics would still have the earliest access.

Sure, I take a couple of days off for a migraine and sick family, and I miss out on a long discussion.

I won't be opening up the boots of the wanderer to other clerics (or classes), but am considering permanent haste for custom reward items (but it would be very expensive).

When thinking about permanent haste on an item, I really don't like it. I see it sort of like granting, pretty much permanently:
(part of) 20 base ranks in Tumble [for the +4 stacking AC] +
Two-Weapon Fighting & Ambidexterity & a +2 Attack Bonus [that extra attack at full bonus, but with the main hand weapon] +
15th level Monk Speed [for the +50% movement rate] +
Automatic Quicken Spell I, II, and III [for the extra spell per round without taking up higher level slots]

I put the boots of the wanderer into the game for experienced clerics of Gort because he's the god of travel. I know they're powerful, but it'd be a choice to work toward being able to use them. Gort doesn't provide the greatest benefits for his followers (compare to some of the benefits gained following some other patron deities), and you'd have to invest 10+ levels as a cleric (a class not everyone wants as part of a particular character build). And permanent haste is the only property those boots have.

I have no problem with the haste spell itself. Even cast by a 40th level sorcerer/wizard, that's 40 rounds (80 with Extend Spell) at most, taking up a limited (and valuable even for a 40th level caster) 3rd level or 4th level spell slot. Powerful, but that's a whole .5 (at 5th level) to 8 (at 40th, extended) in-game minutes per casting.

titus wrote:oh, how cute. it put stars where i typed the s-word. {:?

There is some minor censoring on the forum. Trying to keep it pretty family-friendly and all.

What if the Perm Haste effect was one of the options for an Epic reward voucher? One could then take XP, gold, item or home vouchers, or a single Perm Haste effect item. This way appropriate time is invested in the character, is available to every build, is the only effect on an item of choice, so it avoids duplication and allows for the slot selected.

Simply thinking out loud....

RustyDios wrote:Maybe it would be better if the other clergy all had 10th lev+ deity specific items which grant something no-one else can get? ... How about mystara clerics getting a "beholder mirror shield" that makes you immune to any ray from a beholder?.. or Lysis clerics not using uses of "them bracers" ?... or Kalas clerics not having to pay for ID at the alters ?... ... what if ALL (class+deity) choices got an item that grants something that can't be gotten by a different set-up...

I must say that I think this is a grade-A idea. I don't play clerics much at all, perhaps this would be incentive to do so ...

Elhanan wrote:What if the Perm Haste effect was one of the options for an Epic reward voucher? One could then take XP, gold, item or home vouchers, or a single Perm Haste effect item. This way appropriate time is invested in the character, is available to every build, is the only effect on an item of choice, so it avoids duplication and allows for the slot selected.

Intriguing thoughts, Elhanan ... The downside to this, though, would be like the ioun stones ... I recall from my PnP days that those things were pretty rare, yet pretty much everyone in Aenea has them (not a complaint, mind you, just an observation) - the downside being that everyone would go for permahaste ...

Eric of Atrophy wrote:

Elhanan wrote:What if the Perm Haste effect was one of the options for an Epic reward voucher? One could then take XP, gold, item or home vouchers, or a single Perm Haste effect item. This way appropriate time is invested in the character, is available to every build, is the only effect on an item of choice, so it avoids duplication and allows for the slot selected.

Intriguing thoughts, Elhanan ... The downside to this, though, would be like the ioun stones ... I recall from my PnP days that those things were pretty rare, yet pretty much everyone in Aenea has them (not a complaint, mind you, just an observation) - the downside being that everyone would go for permahaste ...

At a glance, my casters probably would, but with Boots of Striding and Springing already available, don't know about the others; just wanna move faster. And most on Aenea are already doing this anyway.

But if placed on the very final Award Voucher, that would mean deciding between some very important gifts. Perhaps these choices would be easy for some, but at the cost of a huge Custom voucher, it would be rather difficult for me.

This is true ... you had me confused with your use of "epic" ... Permahaste for the very last voucher ... that does require a huge investment of time on the part of the player, and yeah, I could see where that could be an adequate choice for a reward, and be a balancing factor as well.

ok, noob question here -
what is the 'final reward voucher', exactly? or maybe i should ask, what is the gp amt and when is it awarded?

titus wrote:ok, noob question here -
what is the 'final reward voucher', exactly? or maybe i should ask, what is the gp amt and when is it awarded?

It is granted as the 500+ hr Voucher, I believe; cannot recall exact time amt. And as I recall, I believe the figures for both gold & vouchers are 500k.

If this is considered too high an investment, it could be lowered, I guess. But this way it is included, yet is rare enough to be considered unique; a thought only....

Yeah the "final reward voucher" is a custom item voucher, available from a special reward chest within the astral conjunction when a PC reaches over 512hours of in-game non-afk actual time played by a player. That's a minimum of 512hours actual RL hours played with that PC, and that voucher is worth 500k.. (making the total voucher price of 920k if you collect them all!!)...

The reward chest start out being given to a PC after 1hr and are rewarded each doubling upto 512hours (it is yet unknown if there is a 1024hour chest although if there was I'm sure at least Crideas Bane should have been past that mark by now). The first custom item voucher is offered at 8hrs played and is 20k. 16hrs=40k, 32hrs=60k, 64hrs=80k, 128hrs=100k, 256hrs=120k and 512hrs=500k... erm IIRC...

What these vouchers allow is for you to create an item exactly how you want it, within the toolset and have it appear in-game for that PC. These items are non-transferable (but are dwarf or maker modifiable!) and only for that PC. There are of course some rules and limits to what can be done with such items but generally they are the most powerful items a PC can obtain. Refer here for more information .... ...

I have the 500k with two of my PC's only (in nearly four RL years of playing in Aenea!), both of the Braysins have a 500k item and let me tell you.... the stuff that can make up a 500k item is beyond comparison to anything else... the list of abilities that single item can contain (if carefully thought about) could mean that this single item is all your PC will require to do anything... ..

To give all that up just for one property (PermaHaste) is indeed a rather hard choice to make and would likely still mean that it is a rare enough thing.... however, there should still be another option in-game as not everybody likes to collect/make the custom items... ... ...

Maybe an extremely balanced item (ie it gives PermaHaste, but has a list of really undesirable stuff as well ~all stats -10?~, and is still ILR locked to 30-35+) would be an option ? ?

A possibility, certainly ... I myself prefer items with negative properties, as a sort of personal balance ...

I was thinking of an epic level quest that requires a metric crap-ton of work, exploration, and successful high-level combat against the baddest baddies Aenea has to offer.

Not an exact dupplicate, mind you, but something along the lines of the Prophesy of Anga Nol, which is widely regarded as the coolest quest in all of Aenea, and also one of the most involved.

I would even say make it even more complicated and difficult compared to that quest. Require the defeat of all the most powerful baddies (like the two main bosses in the Dark Realm, vorshlag, the power golem, frostornicus, the calithian elder vamp, Venger, the divine wrath mummy, several ancient dragons, icegrind, and all the other bosses tucked into their private lairs that require exploration to find) , the sacrifice of 200 blood of magic, 100 soul gems, 50 dragon's blood, the collection of a laundry list of exotic components from the far reaches of Aenea, 500k XP, and 5 million gold.

This should be the "crown jewel" of PC upgrades, and it should require a helluva lot more than just a 256 hour reward voucher.

That said, I also think it should be a permanent variable set on the PC which added the property to the PC skin, rather than an item.

While I would not mind another Super-quest, one of the reasons I want to have an effect such as this is for using it in such occasions; not only as a symbol of achievement. Plus it would require a ton of work for and others.

For instance using Skyrim, in the main quest series, one gathers some special Shouts (ie; vocal spells) along the way. However, due to the nature of the quest itself, one is restricted in using them in that quest series. So while doing the Main last might seem to be a good idea, it will leave the Player with some unused and hardly vocalized abilities.

What I like about the Voucher notion is that it opens it up for everyone, but not as some easily grabbed item. My problem with it is that the time invested is huge, and presents the same problem with inclusion as the quest idea.

Is there something else extant that would be suitable?

What of the old broken Wizard quest? This would be based on an existing questline, is tied directly with Mages, and is not for lowbies. But it may be more commonly done than others.

What about as a reward from Gort for reaching and using all the portals?

Again, thinking out loud....

The quest idea does not have an inclusion problem. Everyone can do it.

It also requires more than just time invested as opposed to the voucher idea, which will further guard the rarity of the upgrade, and make earning it that much more rewarding.

In order to meet your goal of making the process of acquiring permahaste also allow for earlier use in PC development, the method of acquisition, by definition, must be made easier, with the less time required and less challenge. This is counter to protecting rarity, and cheapens the sense of reward.

If anything, perhaps remove the Dark Realm bosses from the list, but I feel every other boss should need to be defeated without it.

p.s. Also, considering the point of "a ton of work" being required. There wouldnt be. There would need to be one check added to the script in the Astral conjunction that add the effect to the skin if the variable is present. The mechanism for adding the variable could be done with a VC command for DMs after they have verified the proper materials have been gathered, and checked the PCs battlefield journal for the names of the bosses. So one check in the conjunction and one DM VC command. Other than that, it would just be finalizing the list of things to be obtained, or achieved.

p.s.s. Thinking more - I feel I should note a few things, to be abundantly clear. First, the exact numbers and types of things to be gathered is of course changeable, so while an early list might be too difficult, it could be revised based on feedback from players who have undergone the quest. Second, the reason the quest is a superior "filter" mechanism to a voucher or other sort of entry fee is that if an effective list of bosses and items is drafted, it would guarantee the PC who gains such a thing has travelled Aenea far and wide, exploring just about every main area investing the time to defeat traps and puzzles along the way to gaining victory against some of the toughest enemies in the world. To me, and I am sure to at least a few other with whom I have discussed these sorts of concepts, these would be FAR superior measurements of effort and achievment.

More notes before I forget them...

The check in the conjunction can also check the PCs level. So first, check for variable, if present then check PC level, if greater than or equal to 20, apply permahaste to PC skin. This would prevent the permahaste from being used to shortcut a PCs run through the early levels following reincarnation or ascension.

Another possible requirement could be that the PC must be reincarnated and level 20...

elhanan raised some interesting points, but I feel that daveyeisley hit the nail on the head with his suggestion of the quest scenario. I have to say, the idea of the reward being contingent upon the player beating all the baddies that the world has to offer, this would be an excellent judge of a pc's merit for the reward ... after all, I can get online for 512 hours and just farm goblins and drow ...

daveyeisley wrote:Another possible requirement could be that the PC must be reincarnated and level 20...

This I would have to disagree with, as I have not partaken of the reincarnate/ascend paths, and likely never will - I am sure that others feel that way, so making a condition of something that some folks will never do, I don't think it would be necessarily a good thing ...

Eric of Atrophy wrote:elhanan raised some interesting points, but I feel that daveyeisley hit the nail on the head with his suggestion of the quest scenario. I have to say, the idea of the reward being contingent upon the player beating all the baddies that the world has to offer, this would be an excellent judge of a pc's merit for the reward ... after all, I can get online for 512 hours and just farm goblins and drow ...

daveyeisley wrote:Another possible requirement could be that the PC must be reincarnated and level 20...

This I would have to disagree with, as I have not partaken of the reincarnate/ascend paths, and likely never will - I am sure that others feel that way, so making a condition of something that some folks will never do, I don't think it would be necessarily a good thing ...

heh! if you could farm Goblins for 512 hrs, then you might need something a bit more than Perm Haste....

But I do agree that the min lvl should be 21 (ie; Epic); perhaps even 21 lvls needed in a single class.

Absolutely, def. not something that can be had at a lower level - I'm all for the flat 21 level requirement, or something along those lines. And a huge quest would def. make it so the PC worked for the reward.

Elhanan wrote:heh! if you could farm Goblins for 512 hrs, then you might need something a bit more than Perm Haste....

Lots of caffeine, and a very patient family!