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Creature Lore feat available?

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Post by Ramana Jala on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:20 pm

I was considering taking the Creature Lore feat at my Ranger/Rogue/SD's level 33. Even though it would be a Rogue level, it was my understanding that class doesn't matter for this feat. She's got a base Lore of 25.

So I'm in the level-up screen, get to the feats, and Creature Lore is not listed.

What's up? scratch
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Post by daveyeisley on Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:08 pm

Yeah you should be able to take the feat with any class and you have plenty of lore ranks to qualify. I don't think there are any other pre-reqs.
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Post by The Amethyst Dragon on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:51 pm

By all accounts you have the prerequisites covered (2+ base ranks in Lore). I wonder if there's a problem with the rogue's class feat 2da...I'll dig into it tonight if I get finished with house stuff before crashing (I've been wiped the past few days for no apparent reason...even fell asleep before 10pm last night).

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Post by Ramana Jala on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:05 am

Another choice I have would be to take some other feat for this level, and wait on Creature Lore until Level 36, which will be a Ranger level.

Even though I've been preparing by taking more Lore, I have been rather undecided on this feat because of reasons that Dave has succinctly elaborated in this thread. The timer cool-down that prevents using the feat immediately on a new type of creature does seem quite unrealistic. So, has anything about this feat been changed since that discussion?

Hope you feel better soon, The Amethyst Dragon!
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Post by Elhanan on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:10 am

If you wait for a Rager lvl, will Additional Favored Enemy also be an option? This one is helpful.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:57 am

My Ranger 23 Bonus Feat slot at L36 is slated for Bane of Enemies. I'll have my Ranger 25 sixth Favored Enemy available at L39. So far: Undead, Orcs, Dragons, Aberrations, Outsiders, and the last one is planned to be Constructs.
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Post by RustyDios on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:07 am

Ramana Jala wrote:My Ranger 23 Bonus Feat slot at L36 is slated for Bane of Enemies. I'll have my Ranger 25 sixth Favored Enemy available at L39. So far: Undead, Orcs, Dragons, Aberrations, Outsiders, and the last one is planned to be Constructs.

You know that ranger favorite enemy feat selection sounds so familiar from somewhere... and even in that order.... ...
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Post by Elhanan on Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:53 pm

Ramana Jala wrote:My Ranger 23 Bonus Feat slot at L36 is slated for Bane of Enemies. I'll have my Ranger 25 sixth Favored Enemy available at L39. So far: Undead, Orcs, Dragons, Aberrations, Outsiders, and the last one is planned to be Constructs.

But are you aware the favored Enemy may also be taken as an Epic Ranger Bonus feat? It will not raise it up in bonuses, bu that new listing will recieve the penalties for FE and BoE.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Elhanan wrote:
Ramana Jala wrote:My Ranger 23 Bonus Feat slot at L36 is slated for Bane of Enemies. I'll have my Ranger 25 sixth Favored Enemy available at L39. So far: Undead, Orcs, Dragons, Aberrations, Outsiders, and the last one is planned to be Constructs.

But are you aware the favored Enemy may also be taken as an Epic Ranger Bonus feat? It will not raise it up in bonuses, bu that new listing will recieve the penalties for FE and BoE.

Yes, I have seen that option. It's just that I've already chosen six Favored Enemies and my one Ranger Bonus feat slot goes to Bane of Enemies, taking all the Ranger feat slots that would be available for Favored Enemies. Being as Favored Enemies are not available as General Feats, of course, even on a Ranger level.

And a General Feat would be the slot in which I'd be taking the Creature Lore, if I did.

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Post by Elhanan on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:17 pm

General, huh? Others to consider:

* Armor Skin - stacks with others
* Dmg Reduction - if qualified, this one is a great boon.
* Energy Resist - could be of aid for certain environs.
* Epic ST bonuses - use this to shore a weakness, or bolster a strength.
* Epic Prowess - guessing this one has been taken, so simply a reminder.
* Epic Skill Focus - sometimes helpful depending on Skill (eg; Discipline, Spellcraft, etc).
* Toughness - 40 hp at 40th is always helpful, even if not epic.

These are only a few; simply other considerations.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:30 pm

I appreciate the info. Yep, I have Epic Prowess. I have three General Feat slots left, and one is definitely for Epic Dodge, and then another probably for Called Shot, leaving one open. And already have that Blind Fight you recommended elsewhere.

So, yes, I'm open to anything better than Creature Lore, which does seem to have some points that still need ironing out.

As I mentioned above, I might just go ahead and take the level with Called Shot, and keep open consideration of the available empty feat slot until a few more levels. Although last time I had Called Shot, I found that entirely too many creatures had enough Discipline to resist it. How about the creatures in Aenea, like do many creatures (including Dragons and Dracoliches) here have high Discipline?



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Post by daveyeisley on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:33 pm

Not many with high ranks in discipline that I can think of, however the discipline checks also include strength and size modifiers.... so big and strong enemies like dragons and dracoliches are naturally resistant to attacks that allow discipline checks.
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Post by Elhanan on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:20 pm

Discipline is handy here, but I was only using that as an example. Immunity to KD is available, and I cannot recall The Amethyst Dragon using Disarm much thankfully; a bane from my NWN1 campaign days.

Look at the skills that may qualify, and see if those extra points might be worth considering (ie; Spellcraft would give +2 ST vs Spells for instance).
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Post by Ramana Jala on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am

daveyeisley wrote:Not many with high ranks in discipline that I can think of, however the discipline checks also include strength and size modifiers.... so big and strong enemies like dragons and dracoliches are naturally resistant to attacks that allow discipline checks.

The NWN Wiki only mentions the size modifier in a Discipline check, but you say there's a STR modifier also?

(BTW, The Wiki doesn't state the stats of regular dragons, but Dracoliches are listed as typically having 41 STR.)

study

So, my question involves if Called Shot is actually a useful feat here in Aenea. I hope I can convey my reasoning:

I see a prime use of Called Shot to be for slowing or impairing enemies that are tough enough to survive being shot a few times with a bow (Bow with +5 attack, using usually only +2 of my Mighty +5 --more if I wear the STR belt, and all elemental crystals on arrows), to weaken them before they get within melee distance. Thus if all the enemies that have low enough Discipline to be susceptible to this feat are already low/weak enough for a high-level PC to just kill outright before they get close, then this feat would be useless on those. And if all the high-level enemies that one would want to weaken because they will definitely reach you before they even get close to dying, have high enough Discipline to resist this feat, then again the feat would be useless on these. So there's a sweet spot, of enemies being of fairly high level to survive ranged attack but with low enough Discipline, to make this feat worthwhile for a high-level PC.

So, in your opinion, is Called Shot really useful, in being able to penalize movement or attack of a huge lot of enemies, that are tough enough to withstand being killed outright before they reach one?

study
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Post by Elhanan on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Personally, I have never used it, and have seen it more on PvP builds than anything. That said, I am far from an expert on designs; pls gather other opinions.
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Post by daveyeisley on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Simply put, look at the discipline skill on your character in-game. It has a relevant ability listed - Strength. The strength modifier will always be added to the ranks of discipline, even if ranks are equal to zero, because the skill can be used untrained.

To me, the feat has potential, but yes, the enemies you would need it for will have an easier time resisting it.

That said, the best way to counter this would be to totally jack up your attack bonus.... and by my calculations, a focused dexterity-based build (especially an archer build) would potentially have the highest possible attack bonus, depending on how you build it.

My archer build will have over +80 attack bonus when I get him where I want him, and with +20 dexterity buys from lady shea, he could get over +90. With an AB that high, it is very unlikely anything would be able to make the discipline check against called shot.

Lastly, dracoliches (or any other undead) are immune to called shot I believe, because they are immune to critical hits. I am not 100% on this, but I seem to remember having tested it once a long time ago and being disappointed by this.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Thu May 24, 2012 8:41 am

daveyeisley wrote:.... and by my calculations, a focused dexterity-based build (especially an archer build) would potentially have the highest possible attack bonus, depending on how you build it.

My archer build will have over +80 attack bonus when I get him where I want him....

At level 40, my ranger/rogue will have a native BAB of 29, + 5 attack bonus of whatever weapon she's using (in dual-wielding, I assume that only the AB from either weapon that's hitting applies), + 9 from 28 native DEX, and + 6 from the maximum +12 DEX of equipment augmentations. This comes to about 49 if I'm correctly taking everything into consideration. (Yes I didn't max out her DEX in the beginning, I wanted balanced attributes.)

So how do you further augment the Attack Bonus? Are you quoting that +80 including transient spells? [I'm referencing the NWNwiki Attack Bonus.]
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Post by daveyeisley on Thu May 24, 2012 8:54 am

Note the caveat 'depending on how you build it'.

one major source of increased AB is the Arcane Archer class. Investing 25 levels into AA will get you +13 AB as well as +13 damage per shot.

Winged Elves can start with a 22 Dex, +12 from enhancement, +5 from tome (if you can find one), +10 from levelups, +10 or so from Great Dex epic bonus feats (AA gets great dex on their list), and then stat buys for another +20 dex.

Thats a potential dex of 79, for a modifier of 34. And that is not considering other bonuses (like if you take Dragonsoul and choose a heritage that grants a permanent DEX bonus).

29 BAB, lets say 20 dex mod, 5 enhancement bonus on bow, 10 AB from warhulk level 5, 10 or so AB from Arcane Archer, 3 from epic weapon focus, 1 from epic prowess, 1 from ioune stone, and that gets you to the mid 70s right there.

When tricked out completely, that build would be over 80 AB. No active spells, except if you count warhulk channel.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:49 am

Thread necromancy, yes, but my thoughts on this feat:

It's very useful.

The roll is the creature's discipline check (d20+modified discipline skill) vs the DC (your fully modified attack roll, AB+1d20-4).

Crit immunity does not factor in as far as I know.  I am 100% certain backstab immunity (such as what beholders have) does not block called shots, I'll test if crit-immunes block it, but I'm rather sure they don't.

The penalties to the target stack for the most part.  The -2 dex for the leg shots stack.  The speed decrease doesn't however.  Each shot's penalty has it's own timer (4 or 5 rounds).  Called shot leg is not too useful.... Nail out a leg shot every so often to keep the baddie moving slow, that's about it.  The dex penalty lowers it's AC and stacks... but if you're aready hitting the target with a -4 penalty.... meh, that's the archer's equivalent of the arcane spell "mindfog"...

Called shot arm however.... beautiful.  -2 to the target's AB, and like called shot:leg, the penalties stack, each 'hit' running on it's own timer.  At just 1 called shot per round, you can keep a target's AB tanked by -8.  If you can time the clicks right, you can get off more than 1 called shot per round (I seem to get 1 called shot per flurry at best...)

As for it's reliability.... depends on the target.  I have not really sat down and made a list of 'baddies that I never seem to get called shots off on', but a rough recall is yeah, I got it to work on a wide range of baddies... although I've only really used called shot with my archers, and my one meleer who's got a very high AB.  +1/level BAB classes will naturally get more mileage than +3/4 BAB classes, AA's have a huge natural advantage with their enchant arrow AB bonuses. Called shot with +1/2 BAB classes (wizard/sorc).... only viable if you whore high caster level tensers transformations, and even then.... why? You're a wizard or sorcerer... you don't poke, you nuke! Sheesh...
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Post by Ramana Jala on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:27 am


Thank you for the info on Called Shot, it's still useful for me and I'll bookmark this.  I don't think I have it in my build atm, but I might take it again on the next releveling/reincarnation.  I wish I could fit in AA, but that's two new classes in one replacement, because of the mage requirement.  Maybe for a new character I'll do AA/Wizard/SD1 or something.  Time to break out my NWN Character Build Calculator spreadsheet....

As always, Manny, I so appreciate the reports of our invaluable Aenean field-tester!
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Post by ColdWind on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:13 am

Ramana Jala wrote:
AA/Wizard/SD1
bad idea Smile you'll need to take at least 10 wiz levels with HMS points (2 for 1 skill) for sd (at least 2 levels) to get 6 BAB. If you want SD in your build, the most reasonable path is Bard/SD/AA. That one has tumble (with 1 more level of bard post 37) and nice BAB on pre-20 levels, with high enough lore for Creature lore feat.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:18 am

Without knowing how many levels of ranger you have, not sure how useful this would be....

Dragonbow, the "mini-AA'.  It's a 4th level ranger spell, gives +1 AB bonus to your bow per 4 caster levels, plus other scaling bonuses.  Only caveat is you'd need 24+ ranger levels to get an AB bonus greater than the +5 AB bonus you can get from the mystic forge+50 BoMs or a rod of greater enhancement.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:02 am

ColdWind wrote:
Ramana Jala wrote:
AA/Wizard/SD1
bad idea :)you'll need to take at least 10 wiz levels with HMS points (2 for 1 skill) for sd (at least 2 levels) to get 6 BAB. If you want SD in your build, the most reasonable path is Bard/SD/AA. That one has tumble (with 1 more level of bard post 37) and nice BAB on pre-20 levels, with high enough lore for Creature lore feat.

I would tend to agree... Even a shadowchild subrace bonus would still make the soonest a wizard/sd could take AA be at level 12.  The level combos for a wiz/aa/sd build are just not that versatile, and no combo's really gonna let any of the three classes really shine out.  All the combos I can think of aren't -bad-, just well rounded but average.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:26 pm


MannyJabrielle wrote:Without knowing how many levels of ranger you have, not sure how useful this would be....

Dragonbow, the "mini-AA'.  It's a 4th level ranger spell, gives +1 AB bonus to your bow per 4 caster levels, plus other scaling bonuses.  Only caveat is you'd need 24+ ranger levels to get an AB bonus greater than the +5 AB bonus you can get from the mystic forge+50 BoMs or a rod of greater enhancement.

I have 23-25 levels of Ranger, depending on the tradeoff I want to make with Rogue for more sneak attack.  I think the reason I don't use Dragonbow is that I discovered that it doesn't stack with my equipment.

MannyJabrielle wrote:
ColdWind wrote:
Ramana Jala wrote:
AA/Wizard/SD1
bad idea :)you'll need to take at least 10 wiz levels with HMS points (2 for 1 skill) for sd (at least 2 levels) to get 6 BAB. If you want SD in your build, the most reasonable path is Bard/SD/AA. That one has tumble (with 1 more level of bard post 37) and nice BAB on pre-20 levels, with high enough lore for Creature lore feat.

I would tend to agree... Even a shadowchild subrace bonus would still make the soonest a wizard/sd could take AA be at level 12.  The level combos for a wiz/aa/sd build are just not that versatile, and no combo's really gonna let any of the three classes really shine out.  All the combos I can think of aren't -bad-, just well rounded but average.

I hadn't thought it through, thanks for the specs, ColdWind and Manny!

But Bard/SD/AA sounds just about perfect for one of my toon's future children, that I'd been tossing around the idea of Bard or AA for. I'll have to work up a build sheet to see.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:36 pm

Yeah, you woulndn't get anyhing more out of dragonbow until you hit 24 or more ranger levels... and at that, it's just +1 more AB (although that +1 does put you high enough to penetrate +6/dr Very Happy )  I'm guessing you got your bow upgraded with a decent mighty bonus already?
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Post by Ramana Jala on Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:21 pm


I am so glad you brought that up!

Turns out I hadn't checked for that since my toon got all of her STR upgrades done, and now she has STR mod of 10, so I need to upgrade her 5 Mighty bow.

Lovely!  Thank you!
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:28 pm

Dragonbow Wink  20 ranger levels will give you +10 might with dragonbow.
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Post by Ramana Jala on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:50 am


If that stacks with +10 Mighty from her bow, that would be quite significant!

I'll have to field test Dragonbow a bit more.

Thanks for the headsup, I'm already started gathering to upgrade her bow with more Mighty, only decision is: either just do +10 on the bow (because she's maxed on her STR upgrades, and won't be acquiring any more strength anytime soon) or more (up to +20) just in case!

BTW, what's the limit on an attribute upgrade at Lady Shea's?

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Post by Angel of Death on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:13 pm

Ramana Jala wrote:
BTW, what's the limit on an attribute upgrade at Lady Shea's?


IIRC 20 points is the limit for any one stat...with enough time and experience points you can up your stats by +20 in all stats I think. Not that I have ever reached it. It's 500.000 XP per point after all. Razz
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:39 pm

Mighty doesn't stack.  I mentioned it though just as a way of saying you can get your +10 might right away from the spell.

I would say, given the relatively easy gathering list for the mighty property, if you know you can get the +20 strength modifier, do the +20 mighty right away.  Or up to whatever number you'll eventually be able to cap out at.

Any character that started with 11 base strength after leaving character creation in the conjunction can, in the long run, achieve the +20 strength modifer.  +3 str tome, +4 str from warhulk, +12 str from items, +20 str from xp store, there's your 50 strength and +20 modifier Smile
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Post by Ramana Jala on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:47 pm


Thanks for the clarifications.  So neato, I can have her shoot +10 Mighty already for short periods via the Dragonbow spell.

Ramana currently has a base STR of 18 which includes a +2 STR Tome (I can get a +3), +12 STR from magical items, and no buys in STR yet from Lady Shea's XP store.  And there's no STR change from her Warhulk while wearing her gear, so it must not stack on top of the +12 limit from magical boosts from items etc.

So it looks like if I get that +3 STR Tome and buy +20 from the XP store, she'll cap out at 51.  So yeah, I'll get the +20 Mighty on the bow, even though she'll only be able to use +10 of it for a long long time.  Being as she's a ranger and so is always picking up odds and ends from the woods, she already has 15 bark pieces.
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:59 pm

The +4 from warhulk I referred to is the permanent strength bonuses, not the enhancements gained while channeling.  The channeling bonus would be included in the "+12 from items" as magic spells/items grant enhancement, which caps at +12... items are just the source I cited as they are the most common, and 'permanent' insofar as we tend to wear our items all the time.

The permenant bonuses from warhulk I mentioned are applied just like tomes (they modify your base stat value), gained as you acquire higher warhulk levels (+1 at warhulk 1, +1 at warhulk 3, and +2 at warhulk 5).
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Post by Ramana Jala on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:38 pm


Ah, so with Warhulk 5, she's getting +2 in her permanent STR attribute.  That would mean her base attribute before +2Tome and Warhulk was actually 14, which sounds about right as I usually create her with 12 or 14 in STR.

Thanks for patiently explaining all the details to someone who's been distractedly going in four directions all day.  geek
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Post by MannyJabrielle on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:24 pm

+4 to her strength.  Sorry for not being specific. It's similar to tomes but not exactly like them.

Both modify your base strength, but the warhulk bonuses are cumulative, whereas the tomes only give you the bonus of the highest value tome used.
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