Palace Orcs XP

The XP for the palace epic orcs and suicide zombies has been seriously nerfed.  While partied up with Crideas, my steel golem guy (level 29 going in, 31 by the time I logged out (gron vouchers)) was only getting a 46 or so from suicide zombies, a tad over 100 for the epic darkblades, beasts of war, blood witches, destroyers, and archers.  Crid was getting a tad more.

When I was far enough away that XP wasn't split party-wise, at level 29 the XP for the epic orcs was only 200 to 400 each, even though the battles were tough as hell, and I could only take on 1 epic orc at a time, or a couple of destroyers (with ample potion guzzling).

Their XP needs to be fixed back up to match their difficulty.

Also I would STRONGLY suggest to up the Darkblades' and Archers' XP a lot in relation to others. They give less XP than Blood Witches, while being far more dangerous and tedious to defeat than anything else except for Gron(who can actually drop dead sooner with some builds). Especially with their constant potion gulping, which I also suggest to radically decrease, as it's plain annoying with characters with not so great DPS. Either that, or rename Beasts of War to "Puppies of Fluff".  

From my perspective, Darkblades and Archers are by all means very annoyhing bosses in their own right and the pittance of XP they give makes it appealing to just gulp down an invisibility potion and go straight to the throne room, because there are better and far less frustrating sources of XP, particularly with the buffing system that makes them even tougher to crack at level 40. For example, my DEX monk didn't progress in damage so much(or at all) during epics, so it's significantly harder than before, other than being almost unrewarded.

The potion gulping is annoying. Especially with their already healthy chunk of HP!

I think when I made those guys, I just quickly dropped a stack of 10 cure crits or cure serious on them - and mind you, this was a much more reasonable choice back when I made them, because it was before the curing spells were adjusted to cure a percentage of max hitpoints - so each potion would only help them a tiny bit...

Since that change to healing spells, those potions now cure them for a couple hundred hps or more... each.

A stack of 10 of those is a pisser, no doubt. Maybe just reduce it to 2 cure crit potions, and that should fix that.

Back to the XP side of things....

Gron gave my level 40 about 1500xp.

I really think it should be higher, because ascension is not (and should not) be included in XP calulations, and being ascended is what made him manageable - otherwise 1500 would not have been nearly enough.

The loot he drops also includes things to assuage this, but only for non-40th level PCs. Basically, the gain from dropping him was not even sufficient to counter the XP loss from one 'Limited Wish' spell (2500xp). In Pnp, Limited Wish is only 500xp (base cost, some effects might be a little more, but you get the idea - its a *lot* cheaper). For an epic fight like that, of that threat-level and amount of risk, I think the reward should be higher.... exceptional. The level voucher he drops could be adjusted to grant a certain amount of bonus XP (maybe 10k) if the user is 40th, and that would partially fix the issue - but what about parties? Only one person get the voucher.... the rest lose out on that bonus. This is why I would lean towards upping the base XP to something like 3.5k for a 40th level PC.

Considering how much it costs to buy stats, and the XP investments for crafting, or using epic magic, or wish spells, 3.5k xp really isnt any kind of whopping amount for the level of PC who could take Gron. Especially since it is totally impossible to 'farm' or 'grind' Gron.

Now for the other Orcs-

Blood Witches and Beasts of War are tough, and can be annoying, but they are pretty manageable in most cases. Still tough as nails, and a true threat for PCs who are still in the 20s and 30s without gobs of upgrades and custom items. I would say 1000xp for a level 40 is reasonable, and more for lower levels - they do still take quite a bit of effort to defeat, even at 40th level.

The DarkBlades and Elite Archers are nastier. The DarkBlades can be situationally much nastier if they can sneak attack a PC, but otherwise the Archers rule the roost with their fast-paced ranged damage output. It is also significantly harder to disable one of the Archers than it is a darkblade (trust me on that - I have done *lots* of testing). For the Darkblades, I would like to see 1500xp for a 40th level PC, and for the Archers, I would say 2,000xp.

As a side note, I would also like to see awards for the epic Dark Realm enemies in these ranges as well - starting with the oozes coming in around 1,000xp for a 40th level PC, and the rewards going up from there.

And all this just covers the XP rewards. XP can definitely get a player interested in fighting baddies, but what will truly engage the player is the possibility of interesting and powerful randomized loot.

Are the Epic Orcs and Demons likely to carry as many magic items as a powerful Lich? Of course not... but considering how powerful the Epic Orcs and Demons are (and I assure you, their gear is very powerful) - the PCs should have a chance to claim rare and powerful loot for defeating them - maybe not as many loot items as the Liches, but certainly on par or better in terms of rarity and power. The liches are far less threatening, and much easier to kill than these epic baddies. I can't see a good reason why the Liches loot should be so much better (perhaps more of it, but not better).

I do not think the XP issue is limited to the palace orcs; I get 38xp for killing beholders (regular). Used to be 90xp for my 40th level bright gnome IIRC

Angel of Death wrote:I do not think the XP issue is limited to the palace orcs; I get 38xp for killing beholders (regular). Used to be 90xp for my 40th level bright gnome IIRC

Its not - one thing at a time, good sir.

daveyeisley wrote:

Angel of Death wrote:I do not think the XP issue is limited to the palace orcs; I get 38xp for killing beholders (regular). Used to be 90xp for my 40th level bright gnome IIRC

Its not - one thing at a time, good sir.

Eh? What I am trying to say, maybe it's been lowered across the board when 's been tinkering with the xp script.

Yeah, I agree, its not limited to one area or set of creatures- and yes, he may have worked on the XP - I was trying to say that my post was targeting the Orcs mainly here.

We will need to analyze and provide feedback and specific suggestions on various areas and creatures one at a time. If you start a thread on the areas/creatures you have seen issues with, I will try to help with my personal analysis on them.

I think Gron shouldn't drop that voucher at all, but xp reward for killing him should be 40k

I know there is a cap on XP per kill equal to 100xp per pc level - so a 40th level PC cannot gain more than 4kxp from a kill, and it goes down from there.

Certain bosses should defy the cap based on criteria like how much time and effort it takes to get to them, and having extreme threat levels (for things like Dev-crit, 5 or more attacks per round, very high attack bonus, additional damage types, especially non-elemental damage types like negative, positive, divine, or magical).

There really arent that many of such bosses:

Lots of effort to get to (even after first contact - cant be teleported to) - Gron, Nemesis, Horaxona, Necronius Venger, Elder Brain, Blood Witches, Darkblades, Elite Orc Archers, Orc Beasts of War, DarkFire Reavers, Marilleth Dervishes, Dark Realm Ooze, Barbed Demons, Dragon of Icereach Castle, Icegrind, Forsaken Mummy, Soridanithor, Mindeater Demon (lab above demonic barracks), Brain in a Jar, Burning Frost, Deep Goblin King (under wizard academy), Greyskull, Dracolich above/outside the Citadel of Devoured Souls, Grathnor Nightblood, Boss Demon in the 'Evil Residence' in Dark Realm

Dev-crit - Gron, Nemesis, Horaxona, DarkFire Reavers, Arcane Blackguard (don't think I am missing anyone)

Non-elemental damage - Barbed Demons, DarkBlades, Blood Witches, Gron, Nemesis, Horaxona, Marilleth Dervishes, DarkFire Reavers, Mummy of Divine Wrath, Beholders, Elder Beholder, Elder Brain, Calithian Elder Vamp,  Ancient Demilich, Arcane Blackguard, Vamp Shadowslayers,  (I know there is more of these, I'm just drawing a blank)

5 attacks per round, or 4 with very high Attack Bonus/Damage per hit - DarkBlades, Elite Orc Archers, Orc Beasts of War, Gron, Horaxona, Nemesis, DarkFire Reavers, Marilleth Dervishes, Mummy of Divine Wrath, Barbed Demons, Beholders, Elder Beholder, Vamp Shadowslayers, Arcane Blackguard, Necronius Venger, Dracoliches/Vorshlag/Frostornicus/Ancient Dragons, Corpse Eater, Orc Destroyer, Grathnor Nightblood, Orc Palace Dungeon Guards

Thats a list to start from. Feel free to chime in with additions.

I believe these all need special attention to balance the effort/risk versus reward (XP and loot) equation.

I think I need to put this in a separate thread, maybe.

Arcane guardian... he has the typical golem spell immunities, and can punch like a heavyweight.  Not sure what his current XP worth is but should probaby be a big more than the huge iron golems preceeding him.

That lone orc monk running around tesh has a lot of attacks, and can be a pain.  Not sure if he's got any special energy damages on his punches, but he's got a hefty amount of HP for his level, and he's difficult to run from given his speed.  He's hassled even my 30th level meleers.  Can't recall what XP he gives out though given how rare he is (only one of him, and not sure if he respawns).

The list looks pretty complete though covering all the enemies who are special in one regard or another.