Pale master fix

ok heres the info as promissed links and all:

Page 59:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-PrestigeClasses.pdf

pala master gets caster level 1/2 levels

nwn gave them, just spell levels so if you go 30 levels of PM , 5 of foghter and 5 of wizzard you end up with 9th level spells that have 5 dice of damage or last only 5 rounds. You also do not learn any new spells when you level so your boned for spells 5th level or above pretty much unless you can find a pc in game to make them.


Mr Bumkin made a fix to make pale master as intended in PnP D & D read thread here :

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?chl=de&forum=59&topic=453237


mr bumkins fix is found here :

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=scripts.Detail&id=1980

""So the 1/2 casting level promised in the manual isn't in the game without this fix?""

correct one needs the fix from the vault to make PM as intended.

I'm not sure really. I cant find anything reliable saying that palemasters were intended to gain additional spells per palemaster level. I've found forum posts saying things on both sides, but I can't find a 3.0 sourcebook quote on that. Might wanna check that.

As for the quotes in the bioware forum post saying your supposed to get additional spell levels because the manual says so...

Every 2 levels, the palemaster gains additional spells per day, as if they had leveled in their previous spellcaster class. This gain applies to casts per day only and not spell levels.

i have the blood and magic book , it is caster level every 2 levels not spell level , and its logical too if you do 30 levels in Pm your fire balls only do 5d6 ...... very very retardly lame.

The fix is not to gain additonal spells learned but to fix caster level issues. Right nwo you just get an increase in the spells you can CAST per day but not the caster level effecting dice / damage / duration ect.

Found the pnp version in the "Tome and Blood" sourcebook. It seems pretty clear except the end part to me....

At every second level a palemaster gains, the character gains new spells per day as if they had gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any additional benefits the character would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, hitpoints beyond what he recieves from the prestige class, and so on) execept for an increased level in spellcasting.

Is that last part what your refering to?

Yes " execept for an increased level in spellcasting " = caster level. so 10 levels of PM = 5 levels of wiz or sorc spell casting. As it stand now I gain spell levels ( but no spells i have to track down scrolls ) but ero caster level so my 3rd level spells are using the 3 level of wizzard I have to determine damage / dice / duration ect.

"'the character gains new spells per day as if they had gained a level in
a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class....
an increased level in spellcasting "'

Point taken. I still feel kinda iffy on that line, as it doesn't say what that level applies to, but I see what your trying to point out. I personally feel that loss of casting effectiveness is just part of the price you pay for multiclassing, but it'd probably be best to get a dm calling on this.

This reminds me of a quote...

...and to show them the true experience of D&D: heated arguing over the rules!

mutli classign has nbothing whatsoever to do with the fix the prestige class is a caster class , thats the most rediculos agrument to fixing a broken class i ever heard of in my entire life. ITS A CASTER CLASS..... your SUPPOSSED to get caster levels they give you spell levels and forgot to add the caster level and never fixed the bug , what good are spell levels say level 9 spells doing in my case 3 dice of damage ????

what is my 3 dice of damage gonna do ??? make them laugh there selfs to death ?? or better yet my buffs that last 3 rounds.

the class gets a crappy pet that dies very fast. a very low DC death touch 2 or 3 times a day and an even lower DC paralize 2 times per day ( dc 18 or so )


yea....""'price you pay for multiclassing"" its a aracance casting class......

"' , as it doesn't say what that level applies to "' um yes it does .....


"" as if they had gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class "" every other level.


though I hate seeing people who never played a 30 level PM weigh in on the issue... make a 30 level Pm then chime in on the matter , especialy on such a hardcore serer as this.

Don't start taking this personally, Solarina. They're just not sure of the interpretation, they're not attacking you.

We'll get dave or TAD in here to give a verdict soon, that should help clear things up.

Lets try not to let this get personal folks. Its just a discussion.

I tend to agree that having new spells/day implies the caster levels that go along with them. I stopped at 10 PM levels because I wanted caster levels... but I still think those 10 levels should still give me some caster levels (only 1/2 of them) because the PM prC gives craptastic BAB and no bonus feats or even spells learned. It makes sense to me.

Maeglin Dubh wrote:Don't start taking this personally, Solarina. They're just not sure of the interpretation, they're not attacking you.

We'll get dave or TAD in here to give a verdict soon, that should help clear things up.

yea i know it just irks me to see someone who doesnt even play one start getting all negative on the issue , ive played on a bunch of servers all but one had the fix , 3 of them that made the fix always had that one guy who chimed in on the matter who never played one to high level on the server , has nothing invested personaly on the issue and said issue not effecting them in the least one way or the other.... its like those people who like to agrue or be negative or something.

When i found out likes to keep things to the 3.0 i got excited because that might mean a fix for one of my fav class's ( desi is a pen and paper char of mine who has tarveled into various nwn mods same as all my other nwn chars a total of 4 of them )

Its just realy lame to be say 30 Pm 5 wiz 5 fighter and have your buffs last 5 rounds or do 5 dice of damage , the class got gimped bad in nwn and there is a rather easy fix for it in the vault

I take the bonus' PM gets (Immunity to crits, sneaks, AC, HP, saves, access to stealth, free undead) as a trade off for casting ability. Most people use PM as a way to make an "immune to other meleer"-meleers, anyway.

A simple solution for the "problem" as not being as good as single classed casters is, obviously, not to multiclass on a caster, whether it be a casting class or not. If I take RDD on a sorc, even though it's a "caster" multiclass, I lose casting ability in return for the gains.

That's how NWN works, I'm sorry. You either adapt and deal with the downsides, or you try something else. Not to get personal, but to make everyone on the server get Another hak just so a character doesn't have to deal with the downsides of what the player decided seems a wee bit selfish, to me.

solarina wrote:

Maeglin Dubh wrote:Don't start taking this personally, Solarina. They're just not sure of the interpretation, they're not attacking you.

We'll get dave or TAD in here to give a verdict soon, that should help clear things up.

yea i know it just irks me to see someone who doesnt even play one start getting all negative on the issue , ive played on a bunch of servers all but one had the fix , 3 of them that made the fix always had that one guy who chimed in on the matter who never played one to high level on the server , has nothing invested personaly on the issue and said issue not effecting them in the least one way or the other.... its like those people who like to agrue or be negative or something.

When i found out likes to keep things to the 3.0 i got excited because that might mean a fix for one of my fav class's ( desi is a pen and paper char of mine who has tarveled into various nwn mods same as all my other nwn chars a total of 4 of them )

Its just realy lame to be say 30 Pm 5 wiz 5 fighter and have your buffs last 5 rounds or do 5 dice of damage , the class got gimped bad in nwn and there is a rather easy fix for it in the vault

Not to be rude or anything, but a personal, very specific attack on a player you know nothing about is pretty uncalled for, and needlessly, needlessly rude.

I my best advice here is to get past the whole thing. Let it go, and let those who had an issue talk about it between themselves, in private.

No need to draw more attention to it and discuss it further. The intent of the topic is more important.

DerusTal, I can see where you are coming from on your logic of "Trade-Off".
The PM class does have class features other than the casting levels.

However, it is apparent to me that BioWare, and even WotC, intended the class to be a viable choice for more than 10 levels. As such, it has features that gain benefits up to level 30. Sure, they are nice. lesser Demilich is probably the most powerful pet in the game.

The thing to keep in mind is that the PM gains spell slots for thos levels. So you can indeed have a level 30 Pale Master, who is casting 9th level spells as a 3rd level caster. This is a travesty.

The PM gets 1/2 BAB, and no bonus feats. That right there, is the basis of PrC casting class progression. The spell slots they get are supposed to be tied to caster levels. A caster doesnt get more spells per day without becoming a better caster... the way NWN works, the sPM slots are not tied to caster level like they should be.

After all, the PM only gets additional slots every OTHER level, this is the trade-off for the other features of the class. Getting no caster levels ON TOP of that is the afore-mentioned "gimping" that Bioware never fixed.

I do have a question related to this, now that I think of it. If the palemaster change is made, can we expect similar changes to other classes such as Shadowdancers, RDDs, and Arcane archers who lost a lot of significant abilities in the carryover between pnp to nwn?

DerusTal wrote:

solarina wrote:

Maeglin Dubh wrote:Don't start taking this personally, Solarina. They're just not sure of the interpretation, they're not attacking you.

We'll get dave or TAD in here to give a verdict soon, that should help clear things up.

yea i know it just irks me to see someone who doesnt even play one start getting all negative on the issue , ive played on a bunch of servers all but one had the fix , 3 of them that made the fix always had that one guy who chimed in on the matter who never played one to high level on the server , has nothing invested personaly on the issue and said issue not effecting them in the least one way or the other.... its like those people who like to agrue or be negative or something.

When i found out likes to keep things to the 3.0 i got excited because that might mean a fix for one of my fav class's ( desi is a pen and paper char of mine who has tarveled into various nwn mods same as all my other nwn chars a total of 4 of them )

Its just realy lame to be say 30 Pm 5 wiz 5 fighter and have your buffs last 5 rounds or do 5 dice of damage , the class got gimped bad in nwn and there is a rather easy fix for it in the vault

Not to be rude or anything, but a personal, very specific attack on a player you know nothing about is pretty uncalled for, and needlessly, needlessly rude.

um who was i attcking ? I am not attcking no one here , im stating facts the person who replyed to my fix post has NOTHING invested in the matter what so ever , has nothing to gain or to lose weather a fix is put into place or not , if a fix is done or not done effects that player not one bit , nor to my knowledge wqould this person have to code the fix if it is put into place....... so how is any of that an attack ?? did i demean this person ? call him(or her ) nasty names ? no I did not. maybe its you thats string up issues about atatcks ? because I didnt attack anyone..... I fail to see pointing out that the person who replied 1st to my fix topic has ZERO / NOTHING invested in the topic and how it doesnt concern said person either way is "" an attack "' maybe some people need thicker skins if they view stating facts ( as i saw them anyway ) an attack.

and as far as this statement goes "' Shadowdancers, RDDs, and Arcane archers "' none of those classes are crippled like the Pm is without any caster classes. If you have an ossue with anyone of those other classes , I would suggest making a thread about them and not high jacking this one as this thread was created to deal with problems of how nwn made an error that was never fixed with Pm class not "" Shadowdancers, RDDs, and Arcane archers "" so id humbly suggest making a thread about those classes and stop high jacking this one.

A fix to pale master being "crippled", that doesn't involve tinkering with other people's haks, and all the other players downloading things for one person is to not play it.

If you don't think Pale Master is worth taking with the weaknesses it has, don't play one, or only take a few levels.

DerusTal wrote:I but to make everyone on the server get Another hak just so a character doesn't have to deal with the downsides of what the player decided seems a wee bit selfish, to me.

now i can see what your animostity is and why you stuck your head in this thread , all about poor you possibly having to download a hak file....boo hoo omg a hak file omg its the end o the world....., and as I stated in the very 1st post if you know how to read entire posts and nit pick what you selectivly like to read , the fact was brought up about it being closer to what it is in 3.0 which i was told this server strives to do is to stick most to 3.0 and make things fun for all. If your fav class was broken you too would prob ask for a fix. what if they took away half of warriors BAB ? that would be the equivilant to not having a caster level for the spell levels they gave PM as dave pointed out already.

DerusTal wrote:A fix to pale master being "crippled", that doesn't involve tinkering with other people's haks, and all the other players downloading things for one person is to not play it.

If you don't think Pale Master is worth taking with the weaknesses it has, don't play one, or only take a few levels.

who are you to tell me what class to play ? and told me to post what info i had regaurding the matter after i talked to him. who do you think you are DerusTal to tell me what levels and what classes to play or how to play or what to do ? now your the one being rude.

It was a logical suggestion to help your problem, no need to get defensive.

has nothing to gain or to lose weather a fix is put into place or not

Because
i've got nothing to gain, nor do i personally care if the change goes
in or not, i'm probably one of the more unbias sides your going to find
here. :-S As for the question, I thought it was relevent to the topic.
Sorry if it wasn't. If a forum mod feels its irrelevent as well, feel
free to delete it or ask me to delete it.

In regards to the more
pnp oriented changes, would this include the way the PM's AC bonus is
set up right now and changing it to how its supposed to work in pnp? Or
are we focusing on just the spellcasting area?

Personally, i'd agree PM's need the boost for making a caster build, and the proposed hak seems to fit it. On pvp servers you'll almost never see a caster pm because its far better fitted atm for meleers rather than casters. In addition to the caster bonuses, perhaps making the graft touch attacks dependant on caster levels as well?

who are you to tell me what class to play ?

...I don't wanna start personal attacks, but try to think about the gist of what he's saying. I think it might've been one of the points I tried explaining via our tell convo.

yes im going to get defensive when you start telling me what do , your a Player , your not staff , its not you call or my call what if any haks get added. I have a right to make suggestions just as you do , Myself and at least two others feel the class is gimped. I was asked to post here the info I had and im the one under siege BY YOU calling me selfish and RUDE for doing what i was asked to do , which was post the problem and the fix to said problem by staff here ..... since when is beign asked by staff to post info in suggestion spot and follwoing advice by staff making me SELFISH AND RUDE for doing so then being told by same player how to play a GAME , who died and made you my daddy to tell me what to do ?? I already got a daddy bud.

...what the heck?

Yeah, that's nowhere near what I was trying to say. At all.

What I was saying was, if I thought WM's were weak as melee for X reason, I would play something different or deal with it. Adapt or die, etc.

But, man. Wow.

dont blame me its how you worded it.

"If you don't think Pale Master is worth taking with the weaknesses it has, don't play one, or only take a few levels."

thats telling me how to play .... if i wanted your imput on what to play id send you a PM or a tell in game.... i dont remember doing so.

"" Not to get personal, but to make everyone on the server get Another hak just so a character doesn't have to deal with the downsides of what the player decided seems a wee bit selfish, to me. ""

selfish ?? I was asked to pst the info and suggestion by staff now this ------ is lableing me selfish ...... yea ok.

It was a suggestion, not a command. There's a difference. And I don't think there's /any/ reason to be calling me dashes, over a misinterpretation.

And in the interest of PnP..
PMs get 1/2 caster levels?
Arcane Archers get imbue arrow, not 3/day fireball
Dragon Disciples can choose their dragon ancestor
BGs get a spell list
Assassins get a spell list
SDs get shadowwalk.

They don't, however, in NWN. And are they useless? Not in the least. Are they not the be-all-end-all for everything a player might want in them? Of course. No class is. That's why you can take three of them, and in any level combination you like!

There's no reason for this thread to get so heated. For as long as I've played on this server, everyone's suggestions have been taken seriously. has gone a long ways to making aenea as enjoyable as reasonably possible for his players, and we've all regarded each others suggestions with respect regardless if it's a change that would affect one person or many, big or small. *Everybody's* suggestions are worth hearing out, everybody deserves equal respect in our little community here. Everyone please keep that in mind and help keep this place as fun as possible for each other. It's not worth the mental energy when it could possibly drive away players from the server or cause anyone to think twice about posting a suggestion they thought up.

...Nooo...I don't think thats what he was trying to say.

Alright. Remember the tell conversation we had? You brought up the
point of "what would happen if fighters had their BAB cut in half?".
My response was "people would choose classes with better BAB so they
could melee better".

He's applying the same arguement there. If people want better spellcasting, like dave
stated, they'd take more levels in the casting class. Thats kinda what
DT is implying. The point being shooting yourself in the foot, then
saying how its someone elses fault is counterproductive. Likewise,
building something you feel will be weak, refusing to change it so that
it isn't, then trying to push something otherwise...yeah.

Sorry, not meaning to get personal. Lets try summing up the points thus far to get back on topic.

I'm gonna assume this is in regards to spellcasting only, leaving out other pnp/nwn consistancies like AC

Pros
-the hak implements a more pnp way for palemasters to cast in regards to spellcasting and caster levels
-Conforms more to the original pnp 3.0 rules
-palemasters really do need a bonus as a spellcasting class, and this provides them with that.

Possible issues
-Balance issues (I can see some, but its not make or break)
-Necessity (how badly is it needed?)
-The arguement seems....pretty contradictory to the skillpoint issue
that was brought up earlier. Ie: "you need XXX class levels for XXX
skills to be justified through non-skilldumping means", yet this
arguement goes around boosting spells from an entirely different class
based on palemaster levels...@_@

If anyone wants to edit or change that list, feel free to do so.

Chill out, folks.

I look at all suggestions, no matter if they are for a specific class or for everyone. I may or may not use every suggestions, and some may take weeks or even months if I do decide to use them, but everyone is welcome to add their suggestions.

This is a game that some people spend many hours in, investing time and thought into their characters. That much thought and dedication often leads to strong feelings about favorite characters and classes.

Just like religion and politics, there will be differences of opinion and interpretation. Relax. Admit to yourself that others have different opinions that likely won't change and let it go. Breath. Log in to Aenea and hunt some orcs or mind flayers...

And just to reign things in, I'm going to lock this thread. It'll still be here (so that I can keep the original suggestion on the list).