Vampires

After having spent half of my day playing my new vampire PC and being beaten to a pulp numerous times.... only to have to wait around for the sun to go down to even be able to try to get some of my XP back.... I have to say... the +2 str and +2 Cha, +1/5 DR and +1 regen.... its not worth the 25% xp and the nearly 50% of playtime down the toilet. lets not even get into the dominate abilities... they are pretty useless.

I spent over 5 hours honestly trying, using my knowledge of the world... and you know what I got for it? 2 levels.

Thats it. I got from second level to 4th level, and cant seem to outpace the rate of XP loss from dying in order to get to 5th level. Unless of course, I want to farm goblins for another 5 hours. They seem to be the only things I can safely kill. I dont dare try the graveyard, the sorgath temple absolutely ruins me, bandits, silver stalkers.... you name it, i get whooped by it.

And the worst part is after spending some of the night travelling to a goal, I will have an encounter and die... and wont have enough time to reach the goal again until the next sundown...

I just cant for the life of me seem to find the "fun" in this....


I suggest either Vampires get better stat boosts or some more immunties (like mind effects. poison, disease, etc because they are undead after all and get hurt by healing items) to at least put them on better footing against their foes so that the drawbacks are at least somehwat worth. Yhey also need some cheaper way of dealing with the sun than a 10k shadowcloak.

The problem isnt once you manage to get your vampire PC up to mid levels.... its getting through the low levels that is ridiculous.

I just started playing a Vampire myself (not for the first time), and it has been tough going. I was going to ask Manny how he was able to do it.

The hardest part for me, at this point, is time management: trying to make sure I'm somewhere close to shade before ol' Mr. Sun pops out. I enjoy the challenge, but I usually only play her for a couple of Aenea hours before I log in as another character. I'm hoping to find/afford one of those SPF 100 cloaks soon.

For those of the nightraces (drow, shadowchild, vampire) the following options are availiable and are often overlooked.. .. it can be a great help when walking around Aenea (more so if your not 100% familiar with the place and all it's nooks and crannies).. ..

"option sunshelter" - will display a pop-up when near a building/area of shade
"info time" - Aenea's day/date/sun/moon info (sunrise = 0600, sunset = 1800)

Observations whilst playing Jay Braysin, Wandering Shadow of Aenea:

1) "hovering" the mouse over your compass will display the current time..
2) Beg/Bartering of Ring's of regen is a near must...
3) Try saving for some Longstriders armour from Macedone...
4) At the first oppertunity invest in some potions from the "safehouse" in the Graveyard, if you can't make it through get a teammate.. at dawn these potions will save your life more then once.... .. (better when teleport items become availiable/ you can get a contract of translocation)...

5) Anywhere near Mistborne?.. dive into Jay's House of the Rising Sun.. it's open for you to shelter in, ring the gong and the butler will grant ye entry, just don't destroy the place please...

6) Try to take a few ranks in "Open Lock"//"Scrolls of Knock".. many "normal" houses in Aenea can be picked as places to hide in ... ..

7) Drow elf's drop alot of cloaks, it's the best place to hunt for a Cloak of Shadows, Take it Slow, Rest often (upto lev4 anyway), remember the "farming" counter won't rise if ye die in there and go back to seek "revenge" ... ...

8 ) The best xp at lower levels comes from sacrificing loot in your inventory (once it's Id'ed in my experience but I'm not sure if Id actually makes a difference).... and exploration, screw fighting at nighttime just run as far and as fast as ye can... set a goal, never take the same paths twice.. I found the trip to Calithia/Tradeholme/Damorok was the best routes to take.. remember don't fight.. just run... of course that IS kinda boring, but it will hopefully get ye a few levels to make "7" easier (then ye can get cloaks to cover your ass and run to shelter's in the day)...

9) Quickslot a Cloak of Shadows (when ye get one), ... it makes donning it faster... (no inventory hunting, no click dragging/radial equip selection)...

10) At least until lev 6... Take it slow and rest often.. anytime it's daylight.. run to the nearest shelter and rest up...

Hope those points help.. and yes I know I'm basing them off my observations with Jay (who is a shadowchild), but hopefully they should help you vampies too ((RP: why the hell is Jay helping vamps?, Angelica must really be making a mark on him! ))...
... and remember it's 25% of your HP/ rd ... that gives ye 4 rounds to get out of the sun.. and that's 4 "combat" rounds... so the second the first damage gets applied (or you see the time change to 0600) beeline / potion away from wherever the hell you are into shelter...

Thanks RustyDios...<readies Notepad for a copy-n-paste of your post>

Darkness spells/items are your friend. While under the effects of darkness, you won't get burned.

Perhaps a further suggestion would be for the hooded merchant to sell darkness scrolls (or better yet, for non wiz/sorc/umd capable vampires), some sort of item that can cast darkness several times a day. The scrolls last only 3 rounds, so it'd be kinda sucky if there was such an item, but it was limitd castings, and/or limited stock per reset.

I thank those who are trying to help. I appreciate it.

Please keep in mind I am fully aware of all of the options that have been put forth. I have been playing here for a little bit

Many are not feasible due to financial reasons (you aint getting a ring of regen at level 4, and it aint gonna help a vampire anyhow)

And others, such as running and not fighting for exploration XP just arent fun. My PC happens to be a monk so, movement speed is a non issue.

The shadow escape potions are 3k a pop for me, and are not worth it. I would rather get 3k of gear that will help me GAIN xp rather than blow 3k on a single use item that will save me from losing XP. (not to mention that once I use it, I would have to try and fight my way through the graveyard, which is too difficult. Or, of course. wait for sundown and blow another 5oo gp potion of escape to bypass the graveyard... so ... not... worth... the money... or the time.

At low levels, the drow in the sorgath temple that you can kill dont drop cloaks. Drow trainees *might* drop a decent weapon, but not cloaks. And the other, tougher enemies in there will destroy a lvl 4.... blacktongues of sorgath, drow wizards, and if your unlucky... a regular drow warrior with a big randomized STR boost.

Saccing loot in inventory most often results in a small (1gp) reward. I would never recommend doing this for XP.

I have a cloak of shadows quickslotted.... the problem is... that cloak was *given* to me. I could never have bought it on my own, and cant kill anything that would have dropped it. Even if I *could* have bought it.... it is not worth the 10k of gear I could have bought to be able to fight better. Not getting hurt by the sun is all well and good, but if I cant kill things, and get loot to sell.... then I have just gotten myself into a mortgage that is bound to foreclose... because eventually that cloak runs out of charges... and I havent gained anything to show for my 10k investment.

As for the resting often... depending on class thats not strictly needed, but taking it slow? There is NO other option. You are basically FORCED to farm goblins, or you die. You know how fast that gets *incredibly* boring? After the 4th or 5th trip through that cave.... you wont want to fight them anymore, or have to sift through the oddles of mundane loot hoping for one or two magic items. And at 9xp per kill.... your spending a lot of time in there if you want to level. There needs to be other enemies that are actually worth fighting... things you can kill, things that give 20xp, and also can drop decent loot.

Ill be blunt. If the low levels had been this frustrating when I first came here, I probably wouldnt have stayed. I dont mind challenge in the mid levels when my PC has some gear and can actually *fight*... but at level 3 or 4.... dont make me grind in order to progress.... thats just not fun. its too slow paced on its own.... and being a vampire slows that pace to a near crawl.... its painful.

I had a vampire once....got so tired of dying i retired a character and gave him the xp so i could get somewhere.

If i might make a suggestion...i saw t his implemented on another server where they had custom vampires as well. In pen and paper a vampire was slain instantly when he was in gaseous form and hit by sunlight. On that server i was on instead...it was an escape, they could shift to gas form...be immune to sunlight but on the same token you could do nothing. Ya couldnt talk to merchants..buy..sell...open doors...nothing.

It allowed you to stay alive but you still couldnt do anything until you either waited for sundown and shifted back...or...found a cave(as that didnt require opening anything)

Just a suggestion mind you...

Kefrem wrote:I had a vampire once....got so tired of dying i retired a character and gave him the xp so i could get somewhere.

If i might make a suggestion...i saw t his implemented on another server where they had custom vampires as well. In pen and paper a vampire was slain instantly when he was in gaseous form and hit by sunlight. On that server i was on instead...it was an escape, they could shift to gas form...be immune to sunlight but on the same token you could do nothing. Ya couldnt talk to merchants..buy..sell...open doors...nothing.

It allowed you to stay alive but you still couldnt do anything until you either waited for sundown and shifted back...or...found a cave(as that didnt require opening anything)

Just a suggestion mind you...

Good thought. Although not being able to "open" doors seems silly to me.... with the tech level of the D&D univerise, any gas should be able to flow through the cracks and spaces in a door/doorframe. If anything, a gaseous vamp should be able to auto-pick/unlock doors that are not magically sealed

The gas form making a vamp immune to sunlight would partially ruin the concept of the shadow cloak (except that you can fight with the cloak on, and interact with stores, use items, etc).

Still, the gas form idea would open up some interesting possibilities. I would strongly recommend that it
just be an appearance change (like the HoD), and not an actual polymorph as this would
*screw* vampire casters.

Attacking, spellcasting, talking, item use, etc could all be locked out in gaseous form.

Gaseous form would be immune to physical damage (slashing, bludegoning, piercing) and critical hits, and take extra damage (+50%) from fire.

Gaseous form could take heavily reduced damage from the sun, maybe instead of 25% of max hps per round... the gaseous form would take 5% per round (like a shadow child, so with regen rings this might possibly be survivable for extended periods).

And perhaps instead of making vamps immune to poison, disease, bleeding, the gaseous form could simply remove such conditions. Being reduced to 0 hps would not cause the "bleeding out" process, but rather force the vampire into gaseous form, and they would have 10 rounds to make a successful reform roll or die (reforming would be like stabilization) during which time they cannot manually change back. Even a single point of fire damage would also kill them outright. This would make vampire properly VERY tough to kill without putting them into the area of trolls with their near godlike immortality

Gaseous form would be an unlimited use, toggled ability.

Also, a bat form would be nice for flying. Not usable in combat.

A note about door opening too.... A vast majority of "cave" entrances have to be "opened" before one can walk through them, and are seemingly set to "auto close" like doors do.

Gaseous form.... no.

I do not think that forcing a PC into a polymorph as punishment for reaching 0 HP will solve anything. In fact, it will make the subrace particularly distasteful. For caster-PC's who'd lose bonus spells when their equipment is essentially unequipped... it would be far more aggravating than sun damage could ever be. As a willfully initiated ability, sure. But forced, no, simply no.

Disease immunity. Vampires cannot use healing kits. If they're diseased, to remove said disease they have to die, which simply sucks, or use a scroll of greater restoration, which is 10 times far more expensive for a single scroll use than it is for a 20 use healing kit. If vampires cannot have disease immunity, I would suggest then a method of disease treatment on par with healing kits, as not to put vampires at such a disadvantage compared to other races/subraces.

Sun damage....

25% per round is hefty. I personally don't mind it, I've run across some rough patches while playing Angelica, but overall, I don't find that I've been restricted very much at all or forced to farm a given area. There was a period when I felt "forced" to farm goblins, but that was for getting suitable blood vials to heal up during the "real" hunting. The addition of the hooded merchant outside Mountainholm makes that all moot though.

I will say though that I think sun damage should be reduced particuarly based on the weather. I can understand and accept 25% per found in full sunny daylight, but it makes no sense that I take the same massive damage in rainy/snowy/overcast weather as in a clear day. I've come across foggy weather that's so thick that you can't see any NPCs or buildings until you've smacked your nose into them.... in fog that extreme, I would say sun damage should be reduced down to 1 or 2 HP, and for drow/shadowchildren, no damage at all.

MannyJabrielle wrote:
Gaseous form.... no.

I do not think that forcing a PC into a polymorph as punishment for reaching 0 HP will solve anything. In fact, it will make the subrace particularly distasteful. For caster-PC's who'd lose bonus spells when their equipment is essentially unequipped... it would be far more aggravating than sun damage could ever be. As a willfully initiated ability, sure. But forced, no, simply no.

I agree that gaseous form should not be a polymorph as that would cause more problems than it solves. Thats why I specifically stated that I strongly recommend it be *solely* an appearance change like the Hat of Disguise does. It would still need to lock out certain actions... but as long as it is not a true polymorph, it would work fine.

Having gaseous form cure disease and poison solves the other issue, too.

MannyJabrielle wrote:..Disease immunity. Vampires cannot use healing kits. If they're diseased, to remove said disease they have to die, which simply sucks, or use a scroll of greater restoration, which is 10 times far more expensive for a single scroll use than it is for a 20 use healing kit...

Uh oh... I didn't know about this...

MannyJabrielle wrote:..Disease immunity. Vampires cannot use healing kits. If they're diseased, to remove said disease they have to die, which simply sucks, or use a scroll of greater restoration, which is 10 times far more expensive for a single scroll use than it is for a 20 use healing kit...

D'oh! PC vampires are still partially-living, so they won't get disease/poison immunity. However, with the next reset I'll make it so drinking blood gives them a chance to remove those conditions (just like with a healing kit). The blood use already takes into account a Heal check from the drinker, so...

Other suggestions here...I'm thinking about.

Another blood suggestion too while we're on it?

Add character level to the heal equation as well? 1d20+heal skill+cha modifier+ character level?

I had a thought about how much struggle a fighter or barbarian vampire would have to face just to heal up. They can't buy stacks upon stacks upon stacks of asis full heals like everyone else, Dragonblood having to be hunted, and even if you had lots of it, can't stack it (inventory and quickslott nightmare). And with regular blood vials, they're still only gonna be healing 54hp to 73hp MAX per blood vial assuming 20 CHA and 20 Wisdom (not exactly common stats to max out for fighters and barbarians)... 86 if they took skill focus/epic skill focus in healing skill. Fighters in particular will be forced to choose between allocating their 2+int modifier skill points per level to heal skill and trying to survive, or investing skill points into something else such as disicpline tumble, appraise, or whatever else a normal character of the same build would take. 54 to 73 hp healed per blood vial is pretty miniscule for a meleer with several hundred HP. 40 more HP healed at level 40 isn't so much more, but it's definitely better than nothing.

Another way to handle healing kits and blood drinking as far as HP goes.

Have the items heal a % of maximum health based on the heal check.

Set a DC, something like DC = character level of the target, and set a few variance thresholds off that DC. Something like (these are just examples):

Check result = DC -20 or less gets you 5% of max health healed

Check result = DC -10 to DC -19 gets you 10% of max health healed.

Check result = DC to DC -9 gets you 20% of max health healed.

Check result = DC +1 to DC +10 gets you 35% of max health healed.

Anything Higher than DC +10 could heal 45% of max health.

This way, the higher level a target is (and thus the more HP they have), the harder it is to heal them, but the more HP you heal if you are successful. If you have invested a lot of ranks, however, with 2-3 heal uses you can get anybody to full.

Of course those percentages can be adjusted but in theory I dont see any problems with that sort of system.

Being that PC vampires are partially living, maybe the sub-race should be retooled just a bit so that they're actually "Half-Vampire" or some such? As it stands, PC vamps seem to get all the weaknesses of a full vampire (as far as NWN can really handle them), but only a scant handful of the benefits. I agree that the full vampire template would be a bit much to hand to a 1st level character, but the cons of this sub-race have always largely outweighed the pros in my eyes. Making them officially half-vampire would allow for the weaaknesses to be dialed down a bit as well as clearing up the whole "how'd that happen, I'm supposed to be dead?!?" thing.

Alternatively, what about the addition of an 8th or 9th level spell, something like "Survive Daylight" that would last until the caster rests? It stands to reason that a long lived, largely magical race would probably have developed something along those lines, and it would still have a drawback in that it either takes up a high level spell slot or room on a custom item.

Also, just had to say it, I think the gaseous form deal sounds pretty darned neat. If it's added, maybe vaporous vamps get a movement speed increase, and possibly take damage from a Gust of Wind spell?

Ra Cha Chongo wrote:Being that PC vampires are partially living, maybe the sub-race should be retooled just a bit so that they're actually "Half-Vampire" or some such? As it stands, PC vamps seem to get all the weaknesses of a full vampire (as far as NWN can really handle them), but only a scant handful of the benefits. I agree that the full vampire template would be a bit much to hand to a 1st level character, but the cons of this sub-race have always largely outweighed the pros in my eyes. Making them officially half-vampire would allow for the weaaknesses to be dialed down a bit as well as clearing up the whole "how'd that happen, I'm supposed to be dead?!?" thing.

Alternatively, what about the addition of an 8th or 9th level spell, something like "Survive Daylight" that would last until the caster rests? It stands to reason that a long lived, largely magical race would probably have developed something along those lines, and it would still have a drawback in that it either takes up a high level spell slot or room on a custom item.

Also, just had to say it, I think the gaseous form deal sounds pretty darned neat. If it's added, maybe vaporous vamps get a movement speed increase, and possibly take damage from a Gust of Wind spell?

The Half-vampire thing actually makes a LOT more sense. And you're absolutely right that the subrace seems to get ALL the disadvantages and not enough of the benefits. Either the beneits need a boost, or the drawbacks need to be nerfed.

And yes... as long as gaseous form is not a "polymorph" effect (which would possibly change the user's stats, and also replace/unequip all their gear), it has a LOT of potential to add flavor and fun to the subrace.

The reason they had made the gas form unable to open doors and such is it made it possible for serious exploitation..if you invulnerable in gas form you could still cast and such and all that which of course opened an entire can of nasty worms.

They just made it that way so it could save t hem in sunlight...but granted no other powers. If you guys can make it something that works better by all means do so...im just throwin suggestions out there

You could just maybe give them the power to cast Darkness 1/day or something

daveyeisley wrote:Another way to handle healing kits and blood drinking as far as HP goes.

Have the items heal a % of maximum health based on the heal check.

Set a DC, something like DC = character level of the target, and set a few variance thresholds off that DC. Something like (these are just examples):

Check result = DC -20 or less gets you 5% of max health healed

Check result = DC -10 to DC -19 gets you 10% of max health healed.

Check result = DC to DC -9 gets you 20% of max health healed.

Check result = DC +1 to DC +10 gets you 35% of max health healed.

Anything Higher than DC +10 could heal 45% of max health.

This way, the higher level a target is (and thus the more HP they have), the harder it is to heal them, but the more HP you heal if you are successful. If you have invested a lot of ranks, however, with 2-3 heal uses you can get anybody to full.

Of course those percentages can be adjusted but in theory I dont see any problems with that sort of system.

Hrmm, I kinda like this... drinking blood healing a percentage...

One drawback of vampires is the necessity to invest in heal skill (and grab the skill focus/epic skill focus feats), or even to a degree invest points into wisdom/charisma when it serves no other use for the class chosen by the vampire character in question. For a warrior type with 600 to 700 HP, blood isn't worth it.

There's dragon's blood, which is nice, gives you some buffs (which are way to easy to dispell anyhow) and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, but the biggest drawback which makes it utterly useless IMO is that it cannot be stacked. I'd trade the buffs for the ability to stack in an instant. Non-stacking blood also hogs up inventory space like crazy, not to mention that you need to tie up a quick slot for 1 single dragonblood.

Healing a percentage would even the scales a good bit. Sundamage does a percentage of damage, so perhaps vampires should be able to heal a percentage to balance it out.

The healing definitely needs improving. While at low levels, it's like a full heal potion, I imagine higher levels it's near useless. Sacrificing a feat to add 20 to my heal checks for healing with blood? I think I'll pass and take my chances with something more defensive. As a means of helping melee people, why not add CON modifier to the check? Or you could add a multiplier to the final effect based on level. Maybe start by multiplying the check by 2 at level 5, then increasing the multiplier by 1 every 5 levels thereafter. It would scale the effects to a persons level but still not fully heal them (In theory, I didn't do the math, just a hypothetical idea here )

Since Vampries are undead, why wouldn't they be healed by negative energy attacks and not just immune to them? (Ok, half undead, but still) Also, getting a portion of the undead immunities would boost their survivability greatly. All of the immunities would be a little much from a balance standpoint, but a partial list of their immunities seems reasonable to me. Maybe give them immunity to death magic, Ability/Level Drain and increase their damage reduction from the 5/+1 to damage resistance to all physical damage types with 5/- (that way it also stacks with Damage Reduction effects and can't be bypassed). After all, one crystal of smiting and you have your DR from the subrace. I mean, it's kinda underpowered for damage reduction. I mean, if the damage reduction was like 5/+10, then yeah, it'd be great, but with it being so easily bypassed, I don't see it being all that useful on higher levels. You might want to consider giving them a "vampiric" addition to their damage. Give them a small percentage of the damage dealt (maybe 10% for weapon damage, 5% for other sources of damage.) It would help to heal them, and cmon, Vampire:Vampiric? I mean if there that's not a connection there, I don't know what is...

And, wouldn't they be partially weak to fire? I mean, 25% weak to fire would make that a little more on line with actual vampires. And, flight at night would be amazing for them to have. How I do love flying, and buying five spellbooks of flight just doesn't sit well with me, (not to mention that difficulty with quickslotting them all). I mean, Flight isn't quite as well rounded as Transference, but it's not bad either. I mean, it usually beats running when it comes to speed and it can get you out of a sticky situation above ground, giving you a chance to heal with blood out of harm's way (assuimg they're melee based and there's a safe spot to actually fly to)

The gaseous form... doesn't sit well with me personally. I've never heard of a vampire turning into a gaseous form to escape from the light or for anything. If you're worried about a way to remove Disease/Poison, how about something that does Remove Disease/Cure Poison 1/day each? Or just add it to the Vampire Abilities widget. The immunity to ability/level drai also removes the penalties from being diseased/poisoned, so then that becomes a non-issue.

For whoever mentioned the fact that during overcast/rainy/snowy weather they still take full damage... my understanding was, that in the technical aspect, it was the UV rays that did the damage, not the actual "light," meaning that clouds and the like wouldn't affect it. After all, you can get sunburnt on a cloudy/rainy day.

Finally, I have a question... do Vampires get any benefit from the sustenance effect? And do undead/constructs drop blood?

Not from regular rings of sustenance, but vampires can use "blood rings" for the same effect. The ring can also be "used" as a single shot blood vial (although I've never used one as such, much much cheaper to carrying around a bloodbank's worth of red.

No, constructs don't drop blood, nor undead.

And I don't recall any UV theory when I read Dracula I'd rather not have too much science invade fantasy

I have played a couple of vampires, and yes it is difficult at low levels, but I think it should be. What I think needs to be improved in the resistance to sunshine as the vapmire increases in level. At low levels a weak vampire would not be able to survive in the sunshine but higher levels would. Ants, goblins, drow were my main fodder but what you do get is a lot of blood pretty quickly. The problem is unlike heal potions which work the same way you cannot get higher quality "blood". If all cure potions were only cure light wounds they would not be much use. Maybe the merchant at the crossroads could convert 10 normal blood into a better quality (i.e. comparable to cure critical) or maybe blood drops could have more types similar to the potions.

I like vampires but I think the pro/con balance is currently a bit out.

Different qualities of blood would be sweet, beyond the Dragon blood and everything-else-blood. Should be something of a difference between a giant's blood and a goblin's blood I think (if even, hey, it's a GIANT, should be able to get a lot more blood out of one of those than a iddy biddy goblin

As for resistance... the sunlight damage is magical, which you can't get resistance to. Perhaps have sunlight instead do positive damage and grant a vamp some resistance at higher levels or even with reincarnation/ascension?

I was thinking positive as the opposite of negative energy (which vamps are immune to).

*bump*

suggest merge with this thread.